Dev Workshop Part 2: ...& more Warframe Changes.

[Shirelagel]

An easy nerf for Ash that doesn't mess with the theme would be to make bladestorm a radial affect around him, instead of targeting a radius at range. A slight increase to the base duration of smoke screen would be a nice compensation since it is too short to be useful at a lot of the time.

To fix the motion sickness, you can make it a globe of spinning blades. Same effect, fits the power name, and easier on the eyes.

This all said, I am not of the opinion that Ash needs to be nerfed. I've seen numerous times in which a valkyr, excal, tonkor, or simulor keeps up with or exceeds the dps/kills of an Ash Bladestorm spammer. Bladestorm's animation time and target limit keeps its deadliness limited. But these changes to excal will hurt his dps a fair bit.

[EvilChaosKnight]

4 minutes ago, WingedCrusade said:

You people are kind of ridiculous. These aren't nerfs to anything more than your cheese tactics in the slightest. Here's a suggestion, think about how and when you use the abilities?

Trin was good for 2 things. DR or being an EV battery. Pure healing doesn't really matter in the game as enemies either just tickle you or remove your face from the common plane of existence. And the lvl range where actual HEALING would matter is smaller than shower regulator area which would make the water temperature just right.

Now she's gonna be good for 1 thing for her team. EV feeding machine.

[NabiCho]

3 minutes ago, WarmNoodles said:

oh yeah, I see new bless working miracles in sorties/ high tier towers

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's an irony if you didn't guess. Trinity, best teamwork frame, with this change will become solo only frame. With no benefits added, just straight nerf.

 

I only wish I could refund my plat, it was waste of money as I see.

And going beyond 50m from your team is helpful for them how?

[WhatDuhHells]

I don't see why these nerfs to Excalibur and Valkyr are necessary in the slightest. Do people who like these changes even play these Excalibur more than 40 minutes on level 30+ survivals or 4 waves of level 20+ interceptions that aren't Draco? Is this game supposed to be balanced around endless missions or quick missions like capture/deception? Also if you think people depend on those abilities too much, offer people another playstyle that's just as viable, not just straight up nerf something.

Since the stamina change, Excalibur is no longer invincible from the front. At like level 50-80 enemies, he just dies within 3 seconds without invisibility so he has to go ranged. Also nerfing this aspect of Excalibur, how does this change give him different ways to enjoy him? "He's basically the same but weaker." If you're going to nerf the best part about him, then buff something else that could make him still fun and viable to play.

Valkyr's only good point was invincibility. I'd say she needs a rework, but to nerf the only reason she's "good" just makes her more useless than she already was.

I'm not entirely sure why players would even want nerfs over wanting reworks/buffs for underused/weaker Warframes and getting them up to par with those like Excalibur. His "overpoweredness" is blown out of proportion.

I understand reworking/nerfing Ash Bladestorm with his "press 4 to win" ultimate but nerfing Excalibur again before Bladestorm? Makes no sense.

Edited May 27, 2016 by WhatDuhHells

[PeterScarlet]

I cant support the blessing range change only because I JUST taught a few new players that only want to be healers how to use Trinity and how to be good support for missions live Survival & Excavations etc. to change it to 50 meters really sucks for certain situations like: "when your defending a drill and the game bugs and no power cores spawn near you or if your holding down a spot in T4 Sur and it spawns Life Support on the other side of the map"

50 meters is fine for all the Draco runs but not for every map just yet.

For a new player trying to keep up with veterans to keep the team alive might be super discouraging. I understand everyone is different and can adapt faster than others.

I just feel that as the games only "True Healer" She should be able to heal at infinite range until more we have more options. Otherwise she be as useful as Equinox on group hears go, which will and her only "useful" skill will be Energy Vampire...

Right or wrong that's just how I feel.

[Nyxxz]

I don't play Excal much and I don't spin blind as it's complete crap compared to the normal blind. 

If you want to make it cost half the energy of a normal blade it should at very least not be as S#&$ as it is now, has no range and no duration, make it at least half of the normal cast one and a 50% of the EB's cost is justified

[YagoXiten]

Just now, Shirelagel said:

An easy nerf for Ash that doesn't mess with the theme would be to make bladestorm a radial affect around him, instead of targeting a radius at range. A slight increase to the base duration of smoke screen would be a nice compensation since it is too short to be useful at a lot of the time.

To fix the motion sickness, you can make it a globe of spinning blades. Same effect, fits the power name, and easier on the eyes.

This all said, I am not of the opinion that Ash needs to be nerfed. I've seen numerous times in which a valkyr, excal, tonkor, or simulor keeps up with or exceeds the dps/kills of an Ash Bladestorm spammer. Bladestorm's animation time and target limit keeps its deadliness limited. But these changes to excal will hurt his dps a fair bit.

Those weapons also need nerfed. AoE is supposed to be balanced by the fact that it does more damage overall than a single target source, but that it's divided across multiple targets so kills only a few more enemies in the time that it'd take single target damage to do so. Currently, several AoE weapons kill single targets faster than single target weapons, and kill crowds far, far, far faster.

 

Just now, 3tomatoes said:

I've already uninstalled. 2500 hours played. I can't even remember the last time a frame got a significant buff. How on earth did you think this was a good idea?

Frost's rework was a significant buff. Rhino's rework buffed him. Excalibur's rework buffed him. Volt's rework will buff him. Mag's rework will buff her. Atlas was buffed massively after his initially under-powered release and is now in a good spot. New mods have massively buffed Nekros, and he was buffed in the initial Syndicate patch. Mesa's getting her Peacemaker buffed to scale with secondary mods, and her Shooting Gallery buff is staying active on her the entire duration. You're being overdramatic, and are just objectively wrong.

Trinity deserved nerfs. Unfortunately. She's a busted broken frame, and needs a rework, rather than straight nerfs, so I'm not exceptionally happy about it, but I understand, because she also shouldn't remain in the state she is in currently.

[GreyEnneract]

53 minutes ago, WingedCrusade said:

Coming from somebody who mains a Valkyr, the changes don't really bother me. It should make it more challenging and fun as a Valkyr. I don't see why people complain only to say their invulnerability cheese power is nerfed.

 

Don't get why people riff on Warcry either. Paralysis could be better, and while Ripline's fun to use on enemies, its actual practical uses are... Mediocre at best. I could see it being a good spot for one of the four-use abilities that are recently being sent around, like Vauban and Ivara. Let's be honest, what use is there for Ripline other than trolling, useless entertainment, transporting that annoying AFK'er, or being Spiderman?

 

Anyway, coming from a U7 Master vet, I can say these changes don't bother me, it just adds challenge and makes you actually think strategically on how and when to use these abilities. The only thing I disagree with is the energy use on Excal's mini RB in his EB.

 

I swear people complain for the sake of complaining, since only their cheese tactics were the things actually nerfed. The abilities themselves have only moved /sideways./ Neither a nerf nor a buff. Just balanced to make players think. Except Prism. That damage buff sounds beautiful.

 

I do have to say though, not to sound like a broken record to everyone else, that I agree the enemy scaling is a reason why these cheese tactics exist and why people take so... Erhm. Passionately to these so-called "nerfs."

I am also a U7 vet and completely agree.

[Nyxxz]

I'm not sure how you can think Atlas is a good frame atm, he's pretty much the worst frame in the entire game shared with Oberon. 

His #4 deals S#&$ damage, has "meh" hp unless it's a monster power str build which will suck at everything else and they're single target + deal less damage than a lvl 0 Lato. on a SINGLE TARGET.

[R34LM]

32 minutes ago, 3tomatoes said:

I've already uninstalled. 2500 hours played. I can't even remember the last time a frame got a significant buff. How on earth did you think this was a good idea?

I'm only speaking to the fact that we haven't seen a real buff. All of these changes are in response to how they are used in raids and sorties. Mag was even admitted to be changed because she was a one trick pony for corpus sorties. So our one ticket to get a frame changed is to find a way to make them too good for sorties and raids?

People who are mentioning enemy scaling bring up the best points too, because the biggest reason we have for example prism abused now is because grineer commanders chain switch teleport, scorpions spam grapple, snipers are one hit killers with no warning and seekers are close, and all infested enemies are cc machines. We are spamming these abilities to trivialize FAKE DIFFICULTY. If it is insisted that some frames get nerfs so much, perhaps enemies need one too. After all, enemy offense and defense scales indefinitely while neither of those things do for us. That's a larger disadvantage than most people think, and it is the main reason I quit warframe in times past.

Seriously, when are we going to see another buff to frames that the community says desperately need it? Oberon, hydroid, zephyr and limbo are all the hottest ones. Instead, development is just focused on the challenge tree of fun when usability is stagnant.

EDIT: I do want to clarify that the nerfs/changes aren't that bad, save for the damage reduction for blessing that is questionable. I mainly speak to the reasons behind the priorities of nerfs compared to that of buffs. Yeah, we got some great reworks, but those took constant nagging compared to comparatively less time for nerfs to occur.

Edited May 27, 2016 by R34LM

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, Nyxxz said:

I'm not sure how you can think Atlas is a good frame atm, he's pretty much the worst frame in the entire game shared with Oberon. 

His #4 deals S#&$ damage, has "meh" hp unless it's a monster power str build which will suck at everything else and they're single target + deal less damage than a lvl 0 Lato. on a SINGLE TARGET.

Golems just need to scale with enemy level as well as mods and draw even more aggro.

Other than that his wall just sucks. Surprised there's no "stone armor" type ability instead.

[EurobeatBandit]

1 minute ago, NabiCho said:

And going beyond 50m from your team is helpful for them how?

Reading and counting is helpful.

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Blessing's Damage Resistance is now calculated by the following formula: 
Damage Resistance % = 100 - Square (Average(Tenno Health%)).

Aka, be solo or run QT on EVERYONE and get damaged on purpose AS WHOLE TEAM to get some damage reduction that won't be as good as original one.

You may spew memes like "SHE WAS BROKEN, NERF WELL DESERVED" all day, but the point is - the game as a whole is broken with unlimited scaling enemies and only few scaling abilities. And you should know that if you played the game outside of mercury past wave 20, especially with new weapons/frame.

But go on, praising developer for everything is gonna get this game in great places.

The way to go is adding different, more appealing options to solve the problems, not taking them out almost entirely.

[Sennera]

1 minute ago, R34LM said:

I'm only speaking to the fact that we haven't seen a real buff. All of these changes are in response to how they are used in raids and sorties. Mag was even admitted to be changed because she was a one trick pony for corpus sorties. So our one ticket to get a frame changed is to find a way to make them too good for sorties and raids?

People who are mentioning enemy scaling bring up the best points too, because the biggest reason we have for example prism abused now is because grineer commanders chain switch teleport, scorpions spam grapple, snipers are one hit killers with no warning and seekers are close, and all infested enemies are cc machines. We are spammthese abilities to trivialize FAKE DIFFICULTY. If it is insisted that some frames get nerfs so much, perhaps enemies need one too. After all, enemy offense and defense scales indefinitely while neither of those things do for us. That's a larger disadvantage than most people think, and it is the main reason I quit warframe in times past.ing

Seriously, when are we going to see another buff to frames that the community says desperately need it? Oberon, hydroid, zephyr and limbo are all the hottest ones. Instead, development is just focused on the challenge tree of fun when usability is stagnant.

First I want to note that in the devstream that just ended, they admitted Limbo is getting a good look at next chance they have and he's likely to get reworked a TON so he's no longer a nicheframe.

 

Next I want to completely agree that scaling is insane for enemies. Is it that the warframes get weaker as the mission drags on, or is it that the enemies held their warframe-slaughtering veterans in reserve until hundreds of their guaranteed-to-be-killed fresh soldiers have been slaughtered?

Infinite scaling doesn't fit with the theme of the game and it makes the supposed great power we wield feel trivial compared to what the enemies are capable of after 40m of T4S.

[PeterScarlet]

I'm Fine with Change and change should be often.... Since Warframe is STILL IN BETA. People keep forgetting that this is open beta and may still be in beta for the next 5 years lol anyway, I say this, if balances are need to be done, go ahead! people will complain and cry but at the end of the day this is still beta and everything is subject to change.

eventually the game will be balanced but until then keep trying new ideas and if they don't work.... change them back and move forward.... I don't agree with everything but, that's me no one likes change after getting into their comfort zone. Until we get use to the changes we wont know if it was better or not.

and we'll know if the changes we better or not within 2 days as much as we all play this beta

[TrinityPrime]

The blessing averaging sounds like a good solution but I just wish it didn't apply the averaging to the Trinity. Maybe introduce a 90-95% cap, ignoring the averaging damage reduction mechanic on the Trinity using Bless?

And there's the question of: how does bless interact with downed teammates? Sounds like it will still count them but because they got downed right before or as Bless was being cast then bless damage reduction will calculate the average, including the downed player but without recognizing a player who lost all health.  Reactionary use of blessing still a problem.

Edited May 27, 2016 by KnotOfMetal

[Shifted]

So the ridiculous (lack of) balance of mods created some frames that are ridiculously overpowered.

Now DE noticed they're ridiculous and instead of fixing the core issue (MODS) they just nerf the symptoms again.

It's Vivergate again. Same thing.

Instead of fixing the way we gained XP, they killed the node.

Now we have Draco, and the issue remains.

Ugh.

Steve, Scott. You said on devstream that if there was one thing you'd like to change, it'd be mods.

Just do it. 

Spoiler

 

[(XBOX)KickassNinja14]

16 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

Will bring this to the table to see what adjustments can be made, if any. Thanks for adding thoughts!

I don't want to seems greedy right now as i know you guys plan on fixing limbo next . But according to this post you guys have fixed the way the blind of mirage and excalibur work( basically half of the blinding frame). And as you are considering increasing the range of excalibur blind why not do so to Oberon also? He is also a blinder,he might not be capable of blinding entire maps like previous mirage could but he stills needs sound love(just a small increase in duration and range). And unlike excalibur blind it blind on his 4th which has to be less effective than radial blind,the range and duration of Oberon can be a bit greater as he has no other ability capable of doing this(kinda like mirage but not as impressive as hers)

[GreyEnneract]

3 minutes ago, R34LM said:

I'm only speaking to the fact that we haven't seen a real buff. All of these changes are in response to how they are used in raids and sorties. Mag was even admitted to be changed because she was a one trick pony for corpus sorties. So our one ticket to get a frame changed is to find a way to make them too good for sorties and raids?

People who are mentioning enemy scaling bring up the best points too, because the biggest reason we have for example prism abused now is because grineer commanders chain switch teleport, scorpions spam grapple, snipers are one hit killers with no warning and seekers are close, and all infested enemies are cc machines. We are spamming these abilities to trivialize FAKE DIFFICULTY. If it is insisted that some frames get nerfs so much, perhaps enemies need one too. After all, enemy offense and defense scales indefinitely while neither of those things do for us. That's a larger disadvantage than most people think, and it is the main reason I quit warframe in times past.

Seriously, when are we going to see another buff to frames that the community says desperately need it? Oberon, hydroid, zephyr and limbo are all the hottest ones. Instead, development is just focused on the challenge tree of fun when usability is stagnant.

How long have you been around?

Oberon has been buffed. So has Excal, Rhino, Ember, and now Mag and Volt.

Honestly, such a reactionary.

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

I really don't think changes to Bladestorm are a good idea for the time being until Ash gets a complete look over. Bladestorm is currently his saving grace, aside from Fatal Teleport. Im not against changes to the power in general, I just think now is a bad time. I believe he needs a rework before Bladestorm can reliably be changed without destroying Ash's capabilities as a character. Same issue with Blessing. Without Blessing affecting Archwing players due to the range nerf, the final stage of the JV Raid will be extremely difficult until the healer Archwing arrives due to how much damage the Golem does to Archwing players without a reliable way of healing, which also means players getting kicked out of the Golem far more often if not consistently.

Edited May 27, 2016 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[Latiac]

17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Trinity Changes

 

Blessing: Blessing now heals Allies within the shared Tenno Affinity aura range. This Tenno Affinity aura range is a new UI feature available to all players beside the Shield Stat. This range is 50 meters from Trinity. 
Blessing still instantly heals all Allies (Tenno,Companions, etc) in range. 
Blessing's Damage Resistance is now calculated by the following formula: 
Damage Resistance % = 100 - Square (Average(Tenno Health%)).

 

No no no no no. This pretty much kills things like LOR now.

 

[7Random77]

As more solo player, I don't like some changes, especially mirage blind thing. (only way to solo interceptions)

14 hours ago, SasoDuck said:

No more Mirage's ruining public interception sorties :D WHOOHOO!!!!

You mean saving?

Enjoy your "Mission failed" screens.

[OverlordMcGeek]

Only took what feels like 60 years to give Prism LoS.

[CGs_Vince8184]

big nerf of trinity and mirage thank DE and give one weapon with no mods to fight heavy gunner level 130 too

 

[YagoXiten]

3 minutes ago, R34LM said:

I'm only speaking to the fact that we haven't seen a real buff. All of these changes are in response to how they are used in raids and sorties. Mag was even admitted to be changed because she was a one trick pony for corpus sorties. So our one ticket to get a frame changed is to find a way to make them too good for sorties and raids?

People who are mentioning enemy scaling bring up the best points too, because the biggest reason we have for example prism abused now is because grineer commanders chain switch teleport, scorpions spam grapple, snipers are one hit killers with no warning and seekers are close, and all infested enemies are cc machines. We are spamming these abilities to trivialize FAKE DIFFICULTY. If it is insisted that some frames get nerfs so much, perhaps enemies need one too. After all, enemy offense and defense scales indefinitely while neither of those things do for us. That's a larger disadvantage than most people think, and it is the main reason I quit warframe in times past.

Seriously, when are we going to see another buff to frames that the community says desperately need it? Oberon, hydroid, zephyr and limbo are all the hottest ones. Instead, development is just focused on the challenge tree of fun when usability is stagnant.

True, but they can only tackle so many issues at one time. They have to prioritize and do what they can when they can. Game design isn't easy. It takes a lot of time, and they have to do this all professionally, and deal with economics  of time and resources and money. If they were to nerf the enemies to not be cheap, first, we'd still be cheap, and it'd make content even more trivial. And even with the fake difficulty elements, the game is a cakewalk if you use the meta setups. So you would definitely want to take out the Warframe outliers before the enemy ones. This is a complicated system in flux. You have to wait and adjust things steadily.

I'm not excessively praising DE, either. I have my disagreements with the decisions and their final execution quite often. But I also recognize the merit in their processes.

 

12 minutes ago, WarmNoodles said:

Reading and counting is helpful.

Aka, be solo or run QT on EVERYONE and get damaged on purpose AS WHOLE TEAM to get some damage reduction that won't be as good as original one.

You may spew memes like "SHE WAS BROKEN, NERF WELL DESERVED" all day, but the point is - the game as a whole is broken with unlimited scaling enemies and only few scaling abilities. And you should know that if you played the game outside of mercury past wave 20, especially with new weapons/frame.

But go on, praising developer for everything is gonna get this game in great places.

The way to go is adding different, more appealing options to solve the problems, not taking them out almost entirely.

If something is OP, adding more OP options does not, in fact, fix balance. That only addresses diversity. Diversity is an issue mostly because balance is an issue. Not the other way around.

4 minutes ago, Nyxxz said:

I'm not sure how you can think Atlas is a good frame atm, he's pretty much the worst frame in the entire game shared with Oberon. 

His #4 deals S#&$ damage, has "meh" hp unless it's a monster power str build which will suck at everything else and they're single target + deal less damage than a lvl 0 Lato. on a SINGLE TARGET.

Atlas IS a good frame. He can work perfectly well even in very high level content. His Rumblers aren't amazing, but they still draw some aggro and deal some damage. And the aggro is what you really care about. He also has instant and reliable stagger on his Gaze, and it's nice CC fairly quickly if you leave it on a second or two. He has mobility that is fun and rather effective through his punch. His Wall is admittedly meh without the augment. But as far as balance goes, he is decent. He could use some buffs, but his design and competency are pretty good. Banshee is the realistic benchmark for Warframe balance. Atlas is only a small step below.

 

 

[Revahawx]

People that complain about 99% dmg reduction on bless are people that have no skill to cast that ability.