I think Designers should have to do all 3 sorties every day

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

On 6/1/2016 at 6:55 PM, ssh83 said:

When every player knows a change is bad but the designer doesn't... the designer is out of touch with the game.  They needs to get reacquainted with actually playing the game.

Well, they play the game, but they also got used to the changes, too. [DE] Rebecca coming back to show how Mag played with a screenshot on a Sortie 1 did nothing to explain how it played down the line. For example. I went in and tried to finish a level 20 Corpus Alert solo, and the HEALER could probably finish it solo, but Mag couldn't survive 4 waves (I couldn't even see much with all those particle effects -- even Shield Polarize was obliterated by all the EMPs and bombs).

Sure I can get to learn playing Mag all over again, but WHY? After all that hell to raise her on Grineer and Infested maps, why relearn for a change that is 180 in her 3 year life?

Rather play Solitaire than replay the frame in a totally different way, especially if Trinity can survive where Mag couldn't anyway (and with the cap on Bless).

Too messy of a change. Then we'll just see another nerf in a couple months again, as there's yet another AoE they'll have to nerf (because that's what it's about -- Oh, they're using too much AoEs and it's cheapening the game!!! We got to stop this!!!).

[Loswaith]

7 hours ago, Goodwill said:

... I honestly think that the ability to trade with plat was their solution to the grind and RNG.  ....

Actually this is incorrect, DE added trading because the players asked for it, to be able to swap mods (and to a lesser extent prime parts) between friends/clan mates that sometimes you just wouldn't get yourself due to being very unlucky.  
Initially DE held off on this because they didn't even want to include platinum in the equation due to the "gold" farmer issues other games have had.  For many of us asking for trading it was a surprise when DE released trading with platinum able to be used as well, given their reluctance to release trading because of their concerns.

While Baro (Void trader) was DE's 'solution' to the issues of void grind.

[Enno69]

I see lots of people here who would like the devs to fix absolutely all of the issues they are complaining about and remove all the things they don't like (no matter if others do like them) with the snap of a finger... Yes, the team do play their own game, and they pay attention to feedback. They just changed the Hek's sound back to the original solely due to players asking for it. They just can't cater to every single wish, nor can't they fix fundamental flaws such as scaling as easilyand quickly  as some believe.

[PowerofTwo]

Yeah just yesterday there was the Keyla Sortie (again) and.... oh man damn thing took like 45 minutes to kill (with 2 corrosives, talking pubbies here) WITH A FORMAED SANCTI TIGRIS , this thing is literarly the hardest hitting weapon IN_THE_GAME (well... Lanka can headshot harder iirc but still, it's a freakin sancti tigris). And i don't mean the plate shooting part taking to long, no all 3 shooting plate phases were done in about 5 minutes tops, but the lvl 100 Keyla de Thain was allmost hillariosly if it wasn't so anoying, bullet spongy.

Again SANCTI TIGRIS and i ran out of ammo shooting the damn thing, and the ohers had decentish weapons to, i remember one had a boltor prime and Keyla's model looked like a @(*()$ pincusion... like top to bottom impaled with Boltor bolts and boss is like "eh, this is fine"

How do you play that, as a dev and don't think "weeeeeee should probably fx this :S"

[Autongnosis]

On 2/6/2016 at 5:01 AM, PsychedelicSnake said:

I can confirm that the Devs do indeed play their game. Don't know if anyone will believe me, but it's up to you.

 

On 2/6/2016 at 3:53 AM, Mr.Lube said:

I find that really hard to believe. The only person on that couch I can confidently say is a regular Warframe player is Rebecca, and she has no influence when it comes to game design.

Actually, not just the devs. A lot of employees of various departmens regularly play the game normally, i've met them way more than i'd believe possible in my time here.

[motorfirebox]

This is just plain silliness. The whole "if you don't agree, you must not play the game" mentality is one of the worst aspects of the Warframe community.

[Hypernaut1]

16 hours ago, Djego27 said:

 

I play the game since over 1.5 years:

Napalms\Bombards, absolute broken at high levels with the one shot ability, no fixes.

Nullifiers are absolute broken(not what you think) because her weapon actually will one hit you at higher levels, not telegraphed, not interruptible at all with CC before her bubble is down and since her bubble has a guaranteed life time of 3s very common and incredible broken one hit mechanic that adds absolute nothing to the game and player skill outside completely avoiding LoS to them has zero impact.

Scorch ospray bomb spam till your hole screen is full of this. Fixed once for lower levels, still absolute broken in Sortis with overlapping fields and the damage scaling mechanic(that should not be applied at all to any kind of AOE stuff, give it a damage that matters like 300 and don't scale it ever). They have also broken hit boxes, what means even if you jump over them, you sometimes just get hit(what means you die instantly in sorti).

Grenier aim botting host\solo players with 100% accuracy over the hole map. Fixed in a way that you still got aim botted over the hole map(the fix did absolutely nothing), halve a year later accentually fixed with parkur 2.0. Ballistas are still like they where back then, if you host\solo they have a guaranteed hit, no impacted by movement or anything.

Remember Archwing units fire next to invisible missiles at you that instantly kill you at any level? That was in the game for over 1.5 years and did mean you had to press 2 ever 5 seconds with a Odonata for melee or you just die out of the blue instantly. The shield changes are in the game since over halve a year without any kind of fix, 100% flat damage reduction from the front(guess what direction they face if you solo archwing?) with guns if you don't have AOE damage or punch through and a electric shock that kills levelling arch wings in 1-2 hits if you actually melee them.

Healer grappling hook that has not to connect to the player at all to count as hit. Annoying mechanic at low levels? Try high levels and get hit for 600-1000 damage(it can actually proc bleed as well, killing you quicker then you can pop a HP restore at high levels), with extra shield ignore since toxic healers are so common at high levels that they have a 100% uptime on that. The coding is even so primitive that it is just the first thing they do after spawning, you can see this clearly when multiply spawn and do the hook simultaneous as her first action with a player in range. Since you have to kill like 20 per minute at higher levels, guess what 20 new spawn and every single one gets a free grappling attack after spawning every single minute.

Toxic healers, because they really should hit everybody in a AOE for thousands of damage and instantly kill you at higher levels in halve a second. Because adding shield ignore and extra damage against your HP for any unit around them is seriously not enught.

Brusas, incredible broken design during the event(one hitting you at L100 without perma CCing them in halve a second) after several nerfs they still one hit you every single time in sorti. If the idea is to have a disrupting unit with CC, nullifier field or hook, don't add it into your absolute broken damage scaling that gives them thousands of damage at high levels with at the same time being the biggest bullet sponges of the hole faction.

Do you remember healer auras affect other healers? I do and it was so much fun when the new loka spawn had 15 times more EHP then any other syndicate faction(not only 90% damage reduction, no incoming damage will also heal all the other units to 150%) and you could not play infested at high levels without radiation status weapons at all. While 90% damage resistance does not matter at all at low levels they turn Infested into absolute bullet sponges at high levels, if the healer happens to be around the corner and you can't get to him because you have 20 infested that one hit you and have a 200k+ effective HP each in front of you. Adding that nonsense to the void on top of armor was just plain ridiculous and the reason why I never play solo void survival 1h+ without a radiation status weapon.

Do you remember Infested moas just aim botted and instantly killed you? It was so bad that after 2 months DE finally removed the direct projectile from the tar moas(that did radiation for massive extra damage for christs sake). The tar HP scaling is another thing what is in the game since months(it never was there from the start) and prevents you to clear the map of it at high levels, what means the visual effect lets you see nothing what is behind and you can't move around at all(while tons of melee units rushing towards you) when halve of the map is covered in tar.

Do you remember getting one hit killed by hyekka at L12? I do because they did hit 50 times harder then intended by her broken attack animation. Rollers in the 1000 paper cut event actually also had that bug(fortunately the normal ones don't) hitting you for over 5000 damage in halve a second at L40.

Non of this stuff is hard to spot if you actually play the game, it adds zero challenge and only ends up as broken mechanic that one hits you for no good reason at all and every time DE adds new units they are incredible broken by the shear lack of any reasonable play testing.

 

 

Yet most players of barying MRs successfully complete content without issue.

You are exaggerating

Edited June 3, 2016 by Hypernaut1

[Lost_Cartographer]

16 hours ago, Goodwill said:

And I'm sure you do? Sorry to burst your bubble, but what do you want the devs to do? They "play" the game when they can, but their job is to "develop" the game. That's why they have feedback threads and listen to the community to fill in the caps that they don't have the time to cover.

Also, if you are farming the same void mission over and over for a prime part to the extent you are complaining about it, then I think you are doing it wrong. I farm for about a day and if I don't have what I want, I sell what I farmed and then buy what I want from another player. I honestly think that the ability to trade with plat was their solution to the grind and RNG. It allows players who are impatient a chance to get the item with very minimal effort.

Overall, the developers have a very, very intimate knowledge of their game. And it's for that very reason, they need and ask for player feedback and input. Because they need to get the opinions of people who don't know everything. Who don't know all the game mechanics and who haven't practiced every fraction of the game for the past 2+ years. Have you ever made or even worked on a game before? Because if you have, you'd know what I mean.

 

 

The Stradavar and the Dragon Nikana are locked at the same MR, while the Boltor Prime sits at MR 2.  Rifle aptitude eats 9 mod points maximum, but increases only status chance by 15%, and that's just one among a plethora of useless mods, new and old, that no one will ever touch because the sucktitude makes Duke Nukem Forever look like a quality game.  The Magnus and Vasto have greater recoil per trigger pull than the AKMagnus and AKVasto, meaning their only redeeming quality is faster reloads. 

The list of faults, questionable decisions, and blatantly horrible stat balancing is pretty exhaustive.  How "very, very intimate" could this knowledge be?

[Goodwill]

12 hours ago, Zilchy said:

They received pages of pages of feedback regarding the ideas for the new passives and guess what? They released every passive unchanged from their original statement, including Oberon's incredibly rubbish passive. Asking for feedback only works if you take it onboard, otherwise it's just massively disrespectful. DE are just too proud for the game's own good.

Ever considered that they know something that everyone here doesn't? For example, the future updates for the rest of the year? We only know what we play in game. They know that, and way more. I trust DE's judgement and I will hold out for them to complete their vision.

As for the passives, yes I do believe they can be worked on. But I also believe DE has other more pressing priorities. Namely creating new content. Passives are quite frankly a gimmick and I'd rather DE work on enemy balance, and new content plus revising out of date content like Archwings and Dojos. Those are features that will give considerably more bang for your buck than a passive that I never take notice, nor advantage of. I wouldn't even call passives convenient at most.

[RealPandemonium]

DE is certainly out of touch, as certain questionable design decisions and PR disasters have shown.  That doesn't mean that the latest patch isn't a step in the right direction.  It isn't perfect, but screaming about it will only make them more hesitant to enact the change that we really need in the long run.  

[-CdG-Zilchy]

2 hours ago, Goodwill said:

Ever considered that they know something that everyone here doesn't? For example, the future updates for the rest of the year? We only know what we play in game. They know that, and way more. I trust DE's judgement and I will hold out for them to complete their vision.

As for the passives, yes I do believe they can be worked on. But I also believe DE has other more pressing priorities. Namely creating new content. Passives are quite frankly a gimmick and I'd rather DE work on enemy balance, and new content plus revising out of date content like Archwings and Dojos. Those are features that will give considerably more bang for your buck than a passive that I never take notice, nor advantage of. I wouldn't even call passives convenient at most.

Of course I've considetedl such things but I'd prefer it if they started considering us. For example whether or not they have plans to balance enemy scaling and make the changes to the frames worthwhile in the future, nerfing abilities and then working on balance for the next months while leaving everyone to deal with it in the meantime, is a very inconsiderate and shortsighted approach.

[Goodwill]

9 hours ago, Zilchy said:

Of course I've considetedl such things but I'd prefer it if they started considering us. For example whether or not they have plans to balance enemy scaling and make the changes to the frames worthwhile in the future, nerfing abilities and then working on balance for the next months while leaving everyone to deal with it in the meantime, is a very inconsiderate and shortsighted approach.

 

I do agree enemy scaling is a problem, and I do believe the first step to finding a fixture for that, is nerfing the PCs.

I also agree that all Warframe abilities (of a single Warframe) should all be viable by default.

But I believe the nerfs are very easy to deal with. Some may not make sense, and I would agree some are pointless. But they can be dealt with in the meantime. Sure, it may make things harder, but not impossible.

Honestly, I'm not saying that the criticisms to Warframe content is unwarranted and I agree with most of them. But when people start attacking DE directly, that's where I draw the line. They are sure as hell are NOT inconsiderate. Short-sighted can be argued but we as players cannot argue it because we don't know what they are thinking. Maybe they got this awesome balancing plan that will take a year to pump out, maybe not. Probably not, but we don't know that.

 

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

On 6/2/2016 at 5:32 PM, Djego27 said:

I don't, since if that would be true we would have probably a lot less broken enemy damage/armor scaling, cheap one hit kill game mechanics, Events that would not just one hit you if you actually play them without cheese and a lot better balance when it comes to weapons, frames and enemy design.

Devs play their own games. The problem isn't they don't, it's when they go on "creative" tangents, and players get drawn into the mess.

Creators tend to create to create, but it's also difficult for them to focus at individual tasks. Just how the creative brain is (why they hire business managers to run the business, too. Put them in accounting ... bankruptcy looms!).

[Loswaith]

13 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

DE is certainly out of touch, as certain questionable design decisions and PR disasters have shown.  ...

Is it really DE that is out of touch with their own game, or is it more the players have lost touch with what DE is trying to achieve with their game?

Sure DE makes mistakes but so does every human, and plenty of players will initially overreact to changes too or completely miss the obvious path ahead.

[RealPandemonium]

23 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

Is it really DE that is out of touch with their own game, or is it more the players have lost touch with what DE is trying to achieve with their game?

Sure DE makes mistakes but so does every human, and plenty of players will initially overreact to changes too or completely miss the obvious path ahead.

Things like  GPull and Excaliburgate and how they were handled show that DE is not well-attuned to what goes on in their game.  Perhaps that changed more recently, and if so bravo to them for making the effort to understand what WF has really become.

[Redthirst]

On 03.06.2016 at 1:44 AM, Goodwill said:

And I'm sure you do? Sorry to burst your bubble, but what do you want the devs to do? They "play" the game when they can, but their job is to "develop" the game. That's why they have feedback threads and listen to the community to fill in the caps that they don't have the time to cover.

Also, if you are farming the same void mission over and over for a prime part to the extent you are complaining about it, then I think you are doing it wrong. I farm for about a day and if I don't have what I want, I sell what I farmed and then buy what I want from another player. I honestly think that the ability to trade with plat was their solution to the grind and RNG. It allows players who are impatient a chance to get the item with very minimal effort.

Overall, the developers have a very, very intimate knowledge of their game. And it's for that very reason, they need and ask for player feedback and input. Because they need to get the opinions of people who don't know everything. Who don't know all the game mechanics and who haven't practiced every fraction of the game for the past 2+ years. Have you ever made or even worked on a game before? Because if you have, you'd know what I mean.

 

 

There is a new thread about broken enemy scaling every day for the past half a year(probably more, I only returned to the game about half a year ago), and yet this issue isn't addressed as of yet.

 

I'm fine with them nerfing cheese like 99% Blessing from Trinity or Perma-CC that some Warframes can achieve. But before they do that, they need to eliminate the root of the problem. People don't go for cheesy tactics because they want an easy game. People go for them because the core game mechanics are so broken, that they basically require you to cheese your way through the game. It's absolutely ridiculous that we had a Warframe that could give a 99% damage reduction to her entire team and keep this buff for as long as she wants to. But it's even more ridiculous that the game REQUIRES you to have a 99% damage reduction so you don't die in one hit.

[Enno69]

21 hours ago, PowerofTwo said:

Yeah just yesterday there was the Keyla Sortie (again) and.... oh man damn thing took like 45 minutes to kill (with 2 corrosives, talking pubbies here) WITH A FORMAED SANCTI TIGRIS 

Again SANCTI TIGRIS and i ran out of ammo shooting the damn thing, and the ohers had decentish weapons to, i remember one had a boltor prime and Keyla's model looked like a @(*()$ pincusion... like top to bottom impaled with Boltor bolts and boss is like "eh, this is fine"

 

This sounds like an epic hardcore battle, to be honest^^

[YasaiTsume]

"OMG no more 99% Blessing!? Devs don't know what they are doing, they do not even play their own game! Stop nerfing!" threads are off the charts these days. :v

Please stop guys, Devs are looking at enemy scaling next, and obviously we should keep that in mind before flooding the forums with complaints about Mag and Ability nerfs.

Let's wait for them to finish nerfing the Enemy, then we can bring out the pitch forks.

For now keep calm and try and try, test again and again. No need for 2 months of "Omg Devs destroyed X" like we had when Saryn got reworked. 

PS: Saryn got a beautiful rework. 

[Gameverseman]

On 6/1/2016 at 3:55 PM, ssh83 said:

When every player knows a change is bad but the designer doesn't... the designer is out of touch with the game.  They needs to get reacquainted with actually playing the game.

The people deciding the rarest drop rate in the void should be required to farm it in live with no cheats.  I can understand making Prime Access more lucrative but previous primes that can no longer be bought with prime access still has garbage drop rate!  You can't know what is a "fun" drop rate unless you actually try for it yourself.

Every DE designer should be required to do all 3 Sorties EVERY DAY (edit: with Public pug only).   Fixing OP warframe is good, but the designers need to have intimate knowledge of playing the game to actually fix the game properly.  When they don't, they will constantly over-nerf frames because they don't know how the game plays out practically.

*uncontrollable laughter* Sorry, for a second I thought you claimed designers don't play the game.... Oh wait *more uncontrollable laughter* Man, if what you said was true, Nyx Prime would be a God frame and the Liset would be able to Nuke maps simply because it's a "cool idea". Read up on game theory, design, and development and then try to tell me they don't play the game. 

[RealPandemonium]

10 hours ago, Redthirst said:

People don't go for cheesy tactics because they want an easy game. People go for them because the core game mechanics are so broken, that they basically require you to cheese your way through the game. It's absolutely ridiculous that we had a Warframe that could give a 99% damage reduction to her entire team and keep this buff for as long as she wants to. But it's even more ridiculous that the game REQUIRES you to have a 99% damage reduction so you don't die in one hit.

Not exactly true.  People do want cheese to make the game easy and not just because it is mandatory in 70+ content.  Back when there was no T4 or Sorties, everyone flocked to the path of least resistance anyway.  The climate on the forums was similar to what it is now but supporters of cheese didn't have the excuse of "we need this for sorties/raids/X3 damage enemies" that they have now, instead citing that they needed it to stay for hours in survival (a much weaker argument about a wholly optional minigame.)  DE has only themselves to blame for this; by attempting to embrace the "endless scaling" faction, they severely mucked up the balance of their game and allowed powercreep and bandaids to cover up the rotten core problems of the system for years.  Hopefully they have begun to realize what's really going on.  

 

[Autongnosis]

21 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Not exactly true.  People do want cheese to make the game easy and not just because it is mandatory in 70+ content.  Back when there was no T4 or Sorties, everyone flocked to the path of least resistance anyway.  The climate on the forums was similar to what it is now but supporters of cheese didn't have the excuse of "we need this for sorties/raids/X3 damage enemies" that they have now, instead citing that they needed it to stay for hours in survival (a much weaker argument about a wholly optional minigame.)  DE has only themselves to blame for this; by attempting to embrace the "endless scaling" faction, they severely mucked up the balance of their game and allowed powercreep and bandaids to cover up the rotten core problems of the system for years.  Hopefully they have begun to realize what's really going on.  

This.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

On June 3, 2016 at 11:17 AM, RealPandemonium said:

DE is certainly out of touch, as certain questionable design decisions and PR disasters have shown.  That doesn't mean that the latest patch isn't a step in the right direction.  It isn't perfect, but screaming about it will only make them more hesitant to enact the change that we really need in the long run.  

I am not upset at the changes .

What upsets me is lack of changes to focus , lack of shutoff convergence notification, lack of recent community hot topic, lack of recent story content and the recent asking of 120 dollars for a warframe with a sliver of extra armor ?

Wheres the rail wars at? Its been months since the last rail war and nothing ?

Recently its just yet another warframe redo when all the warframe redos can be done in a single update instead we get piecemeal reworks.

And not even a statement of hey we made raids harder but be patient raids reworks incoming ?

 

[Valiant]

On 03/06/2016 at 4:34 PM, Goodwill said:

Ever considered that they know something that everyone here doesn't? For example, the future updates for the rest of the year? We only know what we play in game. They know that, and way more. I trust DE's judgement and I will hold out for them to complete their vision.

As for the passives, yes I do believe they can be worked on. But I also believe DE has other more pressing priorities. Namely creating new content. Passives are quite frankly a gimmick and I'd rather DE work on enemy balance, and new content plus revising out of date content like Archwings and Dojos. Those are features that will give considerably more bang for your buck than a passive that I never take notice, nor advantage of. I wouldn't even call passives convenient at most.

Zilchy's got a point there to be honest and it's not the first time.

Yeah, maybe they will eventually get around to adjusting stuff like passives, but that's the problem, when. I've noticed that DE do have a tendency to implement certain features and unless there is an immediate and choatic s***storm, they won't adjust anything anytime soon when I'd say that would actually be the prime time to actually fiddle with the stuff. When people are paying attention to it there and then and feedback will be at an all time high simply due to the receptive nature of the community. If you're going to implement something at least do it right the first time rather than leave it for later. Archwing is another example and as is Kubrow's. Melee 2.0? Has the same sort of echoes really, especially with channeling.

I mean seriously, some of the passives were obviously not suitable or could have been improved. There were valid complaints about Chroma being cheated out of a passive yet Equinox gets one. Was anything actually done? No. I'm fairly sure there was feedback about this and other passives prior to its release. Some stuff doesn't need to be dropped in for the playerbase to experience when it could be considered clear cut that it wasn't a good idea in the first place.

[Uzpian]

Just now, Naith said:

I mean seriously, some of the passives were obviously not suitable or could have been improved.

Because wall-latching for a looong time with Loki is one of the best passive ever... /sarcasm.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

7 minutes ago, Naith said:

Zilchy's got a point there to be honest and it's not the first time.

Yeah, maybe they will eventually get around to adjusting stuff like passives, but that's the problem, when. I've noticed that DE do have a tendency to implement certain features and unless there is an immediate and choatic s***storm, they won't adjust anything anytime soon when I'd say that would be the prime time to actually fiddle with the stuff. When people are paying attention to it there and then and feedback will be at an all time high simply due to the receptive nature of the community. If you're going to implement something at least do it right the first time rather than leave it for later. Archwing is another example and as is Kubrow's. Melee 2.0? Has the same sort of echoes really, especially with channeling.

I.E running a penta secura or penta or angstrum, etc the kubrow plays tag and the tenno dies.

Request was either remove selfdamage from these weapons or eliminate tenno selfdamage from kubrows and team mates.

Been a year since this request and the response from DE has been later, later bro but hey keep buying platinum to support the game ?

Is it any wonder that the latest DE  plea for 120 dollars has been met with later bro later as that 120 dollars was spent on some AAA ps4 games ?