How to nerf melee weapons for a bit

[Klavinmour]

Melee is extremely weak and is only now viable because of the Red Crit build.

Perhaps if DE decided to actually bring the numbers for melee weapons in line with Primaries then your cry for nerfs would be acceptable.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Klavinmour

[-CM-Hekovashi]

I feel like naramon perma invis is kinda op, but then i remember that melee isn't that great to begin with and i rather be glad if DE buff other focus schools to zenurik and naramon level. But zenurik only gives you energy regen, which can be completely replaced with pizzaz. Naramon in other hand grants you both-buff to crit chance and give perma invis to any warframe....i'd say it should get some tweaks (maybe nerfs). Overall melee weapons should get more buffs.

[_JustSomeone_]

Seriously... dunno if i have to rage or laugh (or maybe cry) at some nerfs petitions ......We always get some unfair nerfs instead of attacking the MAIN problems....:/

 

Anyways like others said : Melee doesn't need a nerf. Naramon needs a nerf.

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by x_xUnknownx_x

[Soulvengeance]

Melee on average is weak, certain frames that do make it OP though.

Ignaros

Atlas (only thing make it real op is if he can life strike with skill 1)

Saryn

Chroma.

Even then, after the mobs hit lvl 100 atlas and chroma begin falling out of the running.  Saryn at  1:25. Ignaros.......have not found his soft cap yet after 1:30 in survivals T4.  I am a melee advocate all the way, but as most these other guys have posted, melee on average is weak, only certain frames have nich abilities that make them OP.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Soulvengeance

[InglriousB]

How to nerf melee weapons for a bit?

Not

[Trichouette]

Naramon nor melee need nerf, only crits need to be reworked.

[Heliopata]

23 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

You're gonna be doing alot of positioning if you wanna stay alive with bombards and napalms ridiculous AoE that goes through walls

Like always, even less than when you are visible. You got a lot of mobility, you should use it. I know it's a hard concept compare to camping .

 

Bombards and napalms are ridiculous now and even before naramon existence.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

1 hour ago, Dragazer said:

Naramon is balanced off by the fact it locks you into melee to reap its benefits. Loki has had perma invis since the beginning of this game and he isnt limited in the use of his weapons to maintain the invis. 

First, let me say I agree with your overall point. I do think Naramon should be brought down a bit (because of its universal application) but preferrably indirectly by adjusting how invisibility works, as has been said here.

However, you're mistaken in the text I quoted. Naramon does not require drawing your melee weapon. Even melee weapons with 5% base crit chance can crit at will with the Maiming Strike mod. No other boosts are necessary, but if you do have the Lethal Intent Way, Maiming Strike guarantees a crit with a decent chance of a red crit, regardless of your weapon. (I use Maiming Strike + Berserker on every melee weapon now.)  There are also weapons that can perform auto-crit charged attacks with quick melee, such as bladewhips. Naramon's timer also resets every time a crit occurs, which means you can stay invisible forever without even trying.

Naramon does far, far more than "close the gap" between melee and guns. Having virtually never used Ash before, I slapped together a build to test Naramon's power, and went to 40m with nothing but Fragor Prime before I finally died once because I intentionally charged a bombard with no invis and my shields down. I one-shot Vor with melee, for F***'s sake. My red crits frequently broke 100k. My Surging Dash Excal would probably have performed better. But it doesn't matter. Because any frame can do the same thing.

Naramon is the definition of overpowered. It nullifies threat completely and permanently. But any balance changes to the school itself would ruin it. Invisibility needs to have diminishing returns even with silenced weapons. If you had some kind of Threat Level that increased as you deal damage and perform kills, then enemies in the vicinity could perceive you more and more as you tore through them. Breaking LOS with the enemy for a while could reduce Threat Level, and going invisible could dump it completely. More importantly, aggro and detection need to be on a per-enemy basis. Right now, if an enemy sees you, every enemy in the room all magically knows where you are and starts firing immediately.

Really, I think a lot of WF's problems come from the lack of aggro management and clever AI. New systems and awesome weapons... that's great and all. But I think DE needs to go back to the basics, and redesign AI from the ground up. And preferably overhaul all the older enemy units.

[Dragazer]

2 minutes ago, Heliopata said:

Like always, even less than when you are visible. You got a lot of mobility, you should use it. I know it's a hard concept compare to camping .

 

Bombards and napalms are ridiculous now and even before naramon existence.

Sure but what if you want to melee your enemies GG WP, so much for "Sword Alone"

"Bombards and napalms are ridiculous now and even before naramon existence." which further proves my point that Naramon is important to even having a chance of surviving in melee range.

Invis doesn't make everything a cake walk suddenly when you have all those cheese enemies I mentioned

Edited June 8, 2016 by Dragazer

[Dragazer]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

 

Naramon is the definition of overpowered. It nullifies threat completely and permanently.

Perhaps in solo play, in terms of group play it is far from the definition of overpowered for the reasons I mentioned in my previous posts. One shotting vor is nothing special, guns have been doing the same thing for years now.

Guns have been dominating melee weapons for years, now that melee has gotten a bit closer to guns in terms of damage and survivability, everybody loses their minds?

The only one nerf I would accept though for Naramon, is that the passive only applies for full on melee mode to reinforce the idea of melee combat for this school, otherwise it is perfectly fine in my book.

Like I said b4, if you grind your @ss off for these abilities then their power is justified. It's an endgame system, its meant to be powerful not something mediocre 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by Dragazer

[Alma_Elma]

I'm just going to go on a limb here and say consider the following:

Naramon doesn't need a nerf because its the least flexible of the 5 focus schools, in terms of passive abilities. Observe:

Madurai's bonus damage passives affects all weapons, including guns and blades.

Vazarin's defensive/affinity bonuses affects both close combat and ranged fighting styles, and restores health and shields for its active ability.

Zenurik provides infinite energy regeneration.

Unairu's passive doesn't require a specific build. It can petrify enemies even if you're running a status or crit build. But then again, Unairu is pretty lackluster as it is.

Naramon? Critical-focused melee weapons only. That's it, we don't have bonuses for any other kind of combat style, just charging an opponent and hitting them with our sharp sticks. Our entire tactic relies on just one weapon type and one weapon build, we don't get any other choice if we want to get the most out of it. And god help you if you run into an eximus unit with AoE damage abilities.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Alma_Elma

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

1 hour ago, Serafim_94 said:

People in this game do hate playing effectively, do they?

They prefer having fun, and last I checked "playing effectively" means using 3 frames and 4 weapons pretty much.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

1 minute ago, Dragazer said:

Perhaps in solo play, in terms of group play it is far from the definition of overpowered for the reasons I mentioned in my previous posts. One shotting vor is nothing special, guns have been doing the same tihng for years now.

Oh, no, believe me. It's worse in a group setting. Naramon encourages you never to acknowledge your teammates at all, because the only time you will ever be fired upon is when the enemy is aiming for your allies and hits you instead. You thought the Ashhole was bad before? Meet one with Shadow Step. He can let the entire squad blow their revives, and just keep one-shotting bombards alone for hours with no risk to himself.

One-shotting Vor with a gun is not the same as one-shotting Vor with melee. Melee can self-heal, guns can't. Because of Naramon's obscene damage, unranked Life Strike is a full heal on a basic attack, even for Inaros. The philosophy behind melee is trading DPS and survivability for versatility - guarding, knockdowns, channeling effects such as healing. But Naramon eliminates the trade-off. In the unlikely event that you do take damage, it doesn't matter. The only time you will ever be vulnerable is while activating life support, and you can prevent that too by activating within five seconds of hitting an enemy. You are never in any danger unless you completely stop trying.

[Ryddem]

Enough of these damn threads!

Melee need some serious LOVE NOT A NERF. 

Even suggesting this without adding any solutions to the problem that melee has at all is just ignorant. 

Just stop it.

[Dragazer]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Oh, no, believe me. It's worse in a group setting. Naramon encourages you never to acknowledge your teammates at all, because the only time you will ever be fired upon is when the enemy is aiming for your allies and hits you instead. You thought the Ashhole was bad before? Meet one with Shadow Step. He can let the entire squad blow their revives, and just keep one-shotting bombards alone for hours with no risk to himself.

One-shotting Vor with a gun is not the same as one-shotting Vor with melee. Melee can self-heal, guns can't. Because of Naramon's obscene damage, unranked Life Strike is a full heal on a basic attack, even for Inaros. The philosophy behind melee is trading DPS and survivability for versatility - guarding, knockdowns, channeling effects such as healing. But Naramon eliminates the trade-off. In the unlikely event that you do take damage, it doesn't matter. The only time you will ever be vulnerable is while activating life support, and you can prevent that too by activating within five seconds of hitting an enemy. You are never in any danger unless you completely stop trying.

That's an issue with how a player plays the game not naramon's fault. Naramon isn't the only tool at your disposal, your Warframe comes with 4 abilties as well so if the player is not helping the team, it's the players own fault for being selfish not Naramon's.

None of that versatility is needed for guns simply because they deal more damage to more enemies, and they can use their range advantage and cover to avoid taking damage or cc effects in the first place.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Dragazer

[Alma_Elma]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Oh, no, believe me. It's worse in a group setting. Naramon encourages you never to acknowledge your teammates at all, because the only time you will ever be fired upon is when the enemy is aiming for your allies and hits you instead. You thought the Ashhole was bad before? Meet one with Shadow Step. He can let the entire squad blow their revives, and just keep one-shotting bombards alone for hours with no risk to himself.

One-shotting Vor with a gun is not the same as one-shotting Vor with melee. Melee can self-heal, guns can't. Because of Naramon's obscene damage, unranked Life Strike is a full heal on a basic attack, even for Inaros. The philosophy behind melee is trading DPS and survivability for versatility - guarding, knockdowns, channeling effects such as healing. But Naramon eliminates the trade-off. In the unlikely event that you do take damage, it doesn't matter. The only time you will ever be vulnerable is while activating life support, and you can prevent that too by activating within five seconds of hitting an enemy. You are never in any danger unless you completely stop trying.

*Cough* Hushed Invisibility Loki *Cough*

[Praxxor]

So you are saying that people who spent hours upon hours to farm their lovely melee mods, some even spent plat on shadow's debt etc. mods, then spent the countless resources on maxing them, THEN spent the time to farm the ridiculous amounts of focus, those people should be punished?

Do you even realize how long it takes to make a "good" mod set for melee? And even then you are limited in:1) range 2) time (combo counter)

IMO Melee is in the perfect spot right now

[-Sharpz-]

Oh please stop with the NERF!  We need buffs.  Why don't we just Nerf everything and perhaps those who are asking for Nerf will be happy and most will just quit playing Warframe and move on to another game. MEHHH...

Edited June 8, 2016 by -Sharpz-

[-CM-AbsoluteZero]

On 6/8/2016 at 8:52 AM, YasaiTsume said:

It should be less oppressive than plain perma invisibility because in between kills the enemy still has chance to sight the player if they are not actively parkouring about the place as they should, because Ninjas need to be fast and stealthy. 

Loki and Ash have been doing the same stuff for years but even better, but now that other frames have access to an invis (that needs requires a crapton of grind) that actually requires you to go out there and hit things with your melee weapon instead of just standing around with a gun, its now a crime? 

Edited June 9, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed profanity

[lukinu_u]

Melee don't need a nerf.
Melee wepon are just usable as much than guns.

BUT some primary wepons like Sancti Tigris, Synoid Simulor, Tonkor and some others need a nerf.

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

16 minutes ago, Alma_Elma said:

Naramon? Critical-focused melee weapons only. That's it, we don't have bonuses for any other kind of combat style, just charging an opponent and hitting them with our sharp sticks. Our entire tactic relies on just one weapon type and one weapon build, we don't get any other choice if we want to get the most out of it. And god help you if you run into an eximus unit with AoE damage abilities.

As I said in my above post, Maiming Strike gives 5% base crit chance melee weapons a 95% at-will crit chance. But even with 5% crit chance, proccing Naramon is easy since every crit resets the timer on its invisibility. Or you could just use a charged attack to reset the timer at will. Once it gets going, it never stops as long as you keep swinging. As I also said, Maiming Strike can proc Berserker. Naramon is broken. I am speaking from experience.

I encourage anyone commenting on Shadow Step to actually try it first. Trust me, you vastly underestimate its power. Its value is universal and dwarfs even Zenurik's potential. And this is coming from a guy who mains Zenurik, and whose favorite builds can spam powers at minimum efficiency.

Just now, Dragazer said:

That's an issue with how a player plays the game not naramon's fault.

None of that verstality is need for guns simply because they deal more damage to more enemies, and they can use their range advantage and cover to avoid taking damage or cc effects in the first place.

First of all, by the logic in your first sentence, nothing is overpowered. That's like saying if I had a button that gave me infinite health and damage, it's not overpowered because it's still my choice whether or not to press the button.

Secondly, Naramon does what you describe in your second sentence better because it dumps aggro completely. You will not be targeted as long as Shadow Step is active. Enemies will aim, get confused, and then stand there twitching until you one-shot them. If you are visible briefly, they will aim where they last saw you. But if you become visible with Shadow Step, that's your fault. It's a very unlikely occurrence unless you stop attacking for some reason.

I get the impression you haven't used Naramon outside of a brief test. Let me put it this way. I mained a pure melee Warcry Valkyr for a long time when I first started on console. None of the strategies I had to employ to survive are relevant anymore. In fact, no strategy or effort is required at all. Any frame with Naramon is safer than a pre-18.13 Valkyr with Hysteria active. I just mash O forever and win. Yeah, sure, I was using a highly min/maxed Fragor Prime in the specific scenario I described, but that's not necessary. I achieved similar results with a Prisma Skana and Banshee. If I stayed in T4 sur for long enough with that setup, I might have to hit some enemies twice. Wouldn't that be something.

[YasaiTsume]

On 6/8/2016 at 10:37 AM, -CM-AbsoluteZero said:

Loki and Ash have been doing the same stuff for years but even better, but now that other frames have access to an invis that actually requires you to go out there and hit things with your melee weapon instead of just standing around with a gun, its now a crime? 

Nope, but what we are actually looking at when Naramon Shadow Step comes in, is a potential permanent form of Invisibility with no Energy Costs whatsoever.

I have no problems with Naramon, but I would like it to be more interesting than just plain Invisibility.

It makes the Focus system boring. They might as well give Madurai a passive World Of Fire, give Vazarin a Passive Snow Globe. 

Of course it is not that drastic and I'm just exaggerating, but I for one strongly hate boring mechanics on something that can potentially be unique. 

[BiancaRoughfin]

2 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

Melee doesn't need a nerf. Naramon needs a nerf.

Pretty much this /\

1 hour ago, Serafim_94 said:

People in this game do hate playing effectively, do they?

Maybe the fact most Namaron players play Ash and rape the 4 key? At least thats what i see.

[shyguyk]

People react to "Nerf" here like it's offensive. Everyone gets triggered.

I'd say either melee lock it like Dragazer said or change it to invisibility on kill with melee weapon

Edit: I got Tenno'd

Edited June 8, 2016 by shyguyk
removed inflammatory comment

[IceColdHawk]

As long as nullifiers exist, don't even think about it.