Arcwing pettition, revert it back to the original fight model

[Evanescent]

Just now, Loswaith said:

Archwing should matter for Archwing (and those players that enjoy it).. which it doesn't even really do now, as little is in those missions that matter for archwing.

As it stands the best way to even rank Archwing gear is to not really play Archwing and leech shared affinity on Uranus.  While the best ways to get reputation to get the Archwing parts is also to play normal maps and not Archwing either.

Archwing needs to matter for itself before it can really matter to the rest of the game, other than just forcing players to use it.

But herein lies the question:

If Archwing never matters to your progress in the main game, why would you put effort into it, play it, and where would the value for your time in it go?

No, I believe it should provide alternate ways of gathering resources, get new stuff and get new loot. Eventually, it will become a natural part of progression.

[trace_phage]

the changes to archwing remind me of this

 

[Loswaith]

7 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

But herein lies the question:

If Archwing never matters to your progress in the main game, why would you put effort into it, play it, and where would the value for your time in it go?

No, I believe it should provide alternate ways of gathering resources, get new stuff and get new loot. Eventually, it will become a natural part of progression.

Because you have an interest in doing that kind of gameplay.

People come to warframe because it is a third person shooter, they may not even like space flight games, but will try warframe because it isn't that kind of game.  Forcing it on people is much worse than some players never playing that variation because they have no interest in that kind of gameplay.

Whats worse? forcing players to leave because they just dont want to deal with a small part of the gameplay (or ignoring what is a good game, because it has forced space flight), or just leaving that aspect of gameplay to those players that will and do enjoy that kind of play.   Forcing Archwing into the progression is akin to forcing Trials, PvP or Lunaro into the progression, some players just dont like that style of gameplay and didnt come to the game for that.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Loswaith

[Evanescent]

Just now, Loswaith said:

Because you have an interest in doing that kind of gameplay.

People come to warframe because it is a third person shooter, they may not even like space flight games, but will try warframe because it isn't that kind of game.  Forcing it on people is much worse than some players never playing that variation because they have no interest in that kind of gameplay.

Whats worse forcing players to leave because they just dont want to deal with a small part of the gameplay, or just leaving that aspect of gameplay to those players that will and do enjoy that kind of play.   Forcing Archwing into the progression is akin to forcing Trials, PvP or Lunaro into the progression, some players just dont like that style of gameplay and didnt come to the game for that.

But Trials are necessary for progression of power-Arcanes make a vital difference in builds. You cannot really compare PvP and PvE.

However, it appears we are at an impasse.

One hand you have the choice of making time in archwing matter, and reward players for plying it. On the other hand you can keep it forever splintered.

I doubt the latter will be healthy for the game.

Perhaps a compromise can be found in rewarding but not forcing players to play it, such as making resource gathering in it easier-nothing changes in main game but for archwing players it lets them progress their main game at the same time. Maybe players will be willing to try it out to gather resources faster.

But as it is now, how do you respond to us archwing plyers being penalised in our main game progression by having all our archwing stuff be separate?

What say you to my proposition?

 

[Lanadra]

7 hours ago, Evanescent said:

You could say that about anything new gamemode they add,

Yet I'm not, I loathe Archwing, it's not enjoyable, it's irritating, and the fact that they force me to play it to get through a quest increases that irritation tenfold.

I don't have an issue with every new game mode, I have an issue with Archwing.

If Archwing stuff drops from Archwing, that's obvious and fine, as it's meant for people who play it, but what infuriates me is that frames like Atlas and Limbo are partially locked behind Archwing missions, Atlas being locked behind a very infuriating boss fight that I only recently managed to beat, with a lot of frustration.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Artorius-Alter

[Evanescent]

1 hour ago, Artorius-Alter said:

Yet I'm not, I loathe Archwing, it's not enjoyable, it's irritating, and the fact that they force me to play it to get through a quest increases that irritation tenfold.

I don't have an issue with every new game mode, I have an issue with Archwing.

If Archwing stuff drops from Archwing, that's obvious and fine, as it's meant for people who play it, but what infuriates me is that frames like Atlas and Limbo are partially locked behind Archwing missions, Atlas being locked behind a very infuriating boss fight that I only recently managed to beat, with a lot of frustration.

Interception is the same way for me. Yet I find sorties locked behind it, as well as valuable mods and relics.

Can I ask DE to not make interception matter?

I can't, because I know the solution is to fix the gamemode. You don't off your head when you have a headache, you rub some balm or take a pill to make the pain better.

Even with that, there will always be  gamemode you will never like, despite everything. That's a fact.

[Rivy]

These controls seem fine for a dogfighting game, which Archwing is definitely not !

I like the "Descent" movement, but the inertia is ridiculous D:

[DoomFruit]

To those of you who don't like the "6 degrees of freedom" flight mechanic, note that we don't actually have 6 DoF. We're lacking the roll axis - so it's technically a 5 DoF control setup.

I'd make these changes:

-Keybind to change flight mechanic between old (so that you can move in tight quarters more easily) and new (so that you can move more freely in space). Switching to the old control system would instantly roll you back to the "proper" orientation, so you won't need another key to right yourself.

-Keybinds for left and right manual rolling.

-A slider in the options menu to change the amount of "drag" that the new control scheme gives you, from nothing (so you can fly backwards, sideways or any direction, like Babylon 5) to almost instant stop (like Descent).

-A full 3D radar, because the current one is utterly useless if you roll more than 20-30 degrees off-axis.

[Tsunero]

I completely stopped playing AW after this new mess dropped. Warframe was never about realism in most aspects, AW was one of the modes that absolutely didn't need it. Personally, I found the cool arcade flying fun as hell and was excited for the race gamemode. Well, not anymore.

[Culaio]

On 9.08.2016 at 1:33 PM, Artorius-Alter said:

Yet I'm not, I loathe Archwing, it's not enjoyable, it's irritating, and the fact that they force me to play it to get through a quest increases that irritation tenfold.

I don't have an issue with every new game mode, I have an issue with Archwing.

If Archwing stuff drops from Archwing, that's obvious and fine, as it's meant for people who play it, but what infuriates me is that frames like Atlas and Limbo are partially locked behind Archwing missions, Atlas being locked behind a very infuriating boss fight that I only recently managed to beat, with a lot of frustration.

I strongly dislike: survival, defense, excavation does that mean that I should ask DE to stop making those missions matter in warframe(they shouldnt reliable provide rewards that other missions dont give reliably, like relics) ?

On 9.08.2016 at 4:04 PM, Rivy said:

These controls seem fine for a dogfighting game, which Archwing is definitely not !

I like the "Descent" movement, but the inertia is ridiculous D:

Indeed archwing doesnt have dogfighting but a LOT of people are asking for this :), A lot of people asked for 6DoF movement because they wanted dog fights

On 9.08.2016 at 7:25 PM, Momo93 said:

I completely stopped playing AW after this new mess dropped. Warframe was never about realism in most aspects, AW was one of the modes that absolutely didn't need it. Personally, I found the cool arcade flying fun as hell and was excited for the race gamemode. Well, not anymore.

Well a lot of people wanted archwing to be more like space combat sim, which is why they asked for 6DoF movement.

[xxswatelitexx]

Yes please for the love of god Remove 6 Degrees of BS from PC warframe at least.

I used to be able to pull tight turns and move through maps like a hawk hunting its prey. The new Flight system I am like a  Abrahams Tank with a Rocket Strapped to its back in Space. I can't get any proper directional control at all.

Also remove Space = moving up

Control = Moving Down.

When you are moving at high speeds and left go of shift to - you end up going up causing you to lose the perfect flight path.

Movment should be 100% mouse oriented. With extra keys not related to movement to move up and down.

[Lanadra]

34 minutes ago, Culaio said:

I strongly dislike: survival, defense, excavation does that mean that I should ask DE to stop making those missions matter in warframe(they shouldnt reliable provide rewards that other missions dont give reliably, like relics) ?

Indeed archwing doesnt have dogfighting but a LOT of people are asking for this :), A lot of people asked for 6DoF movement because they wanted dog fights

Well a lot of people wanted archwing to be more like space combat sim, which is why they asked for 6DoF movement.

I really don't understand why people pretend like Archwing plays the same as normal ground gameplay, you can't compare modes like Survival and Defense to Archwing as if it's exactly the same.

Archwing plays completely differently, it's almost an entirely new game in and of itself, I get it, people dislike many other modes also, but all of them still play the same as any other ground game mode, I dislike Archwing -because- it plays so differently, because it has little to nothing to do with the gameplay I came to Warframe for, yet it's being rammed down my throat.

[Culaio]

1 hour ago, Artorius-Alter said:

I really don't understand why people pretend like Archwing plays the same as normal ground gameplay, you can't compare modes like Survival and Defense to Archwing as if it's exactly the same.

Archwing plays completely differently, it's almost an entirely new game in and of itself, I get it, people dislike many other modes also, but all of them still play the same as any other ground game mode, I dislike Archwing -because- it plays so differently, because it has little to nothing to do with the gameplay I came to Warframe for, yet it's being rammed down my throat.

The thing is that many games now days mixes many genre's of games, for example GTA lets you walk and shot, drive car, pilot airplane and helicopter and so on, and there are MANY games like that currently and yet no one has problem with it, only difference between games like that and warframe is that archwing was added to game later, but I am pretty sure if it existed in game from the beginning no one would have problem with it, they would accept it as integral part of game, but what if archwing was always planned(for example dev's planned to have it in game from the beginning but lacked money to add it to game) to be important part of warframe, would players still have problem with it ?

Many people who enjoy archwing are hoping that we will get quests in the future that use a lot of archwing or possibly even quests focused on archwing(You cant imagine how much I would want cinematic quest with archwings...), would you take it away from us just because you arent fan of archwing ?

Edited August 14, 2016 by Culaio

[Lanadra]

1 minute ago, Culaio said:

The thing is that many games now days mixes many genre's of games, for example GTA lets you walk and shot, drive car, pilot airplane and helicopter and so on, and there are MANY games like that currently and yet no one has problem with it, only difference between games like that and warframe is that archwing was added to game later, but I am pretty sure if it existed in game from the beginning no one would have problem with it, they would accept it as integral part of game, but what if archwing was always planned(for example dev's planned to have it in game from the beginning but lacked money to add it to game) to be important part of warframe, would players still have problem with it ?

Many people who enjoy archwing are hoping that we will get quests in the future that use a lot of archwing or possibly even quests focused on archwing, would you take it away from us just because you arent fan of archwing ?

How is forcing players that don't like archwing to endure it because -you- do like it, any less selfish then not wanting it as part of quests because I -don't- like it?

Sorry, but your logic cuts both ways you know? You're literally saying it should be made part of quests only for those that do like it, and to hell with anyone else, you're saying the opposite of what I'm saying, yet I'm somehow selfish and intent on ''taking it away from us''?

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

C'mon man. At least give them an opportunity to make changes. DE gets requests to change, nerf, rework daily. Don't start petition posts.

[Culaio]

2 hours ago, Artorius-Alter said:

How is forcing players that don't like archwing to endure it because -you- do like it, any less selfish then not wanting it as part of quests because I -don't- like it?

Sorry, but your logic cuts both ways you know? You're literally saying it should be made part of quests only for those that do like it, and to hell with anyone else, you're saying the opposite of what I'm saying, yet I'm somehow selfish and intent on ''taking it away from us''?

Well I hate the fact that draco was removed, I didnt use it frequently but it made maxing weapons less painful, but even though I HATE this change I am forced to accept it and move on, and there was other changes like that before that I disliked but had to accept, and I am sure there will be more changes in the future like that.

Game will continue to change, DE will add new stuff, some stuff you will like others you wont but you will have to accept it.

The thing is that when you dislike something you can finish it and move to stuff you enjoy but on the other if people like you will complain about something and it will prevent something to be added to game then you wont gain anything from it but we will enjoy game less then we would if it was added, so this is why I am calling it selfish.

I am already forced to endure missions I dont like like excavation to progress in game, but I dont complain about that since some people like it and I have no right to take away someone's fun.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Fixes:

- Corpus tilesets revised to account for inertia, and expanded to allow more better utilization of the 6-directional movement.

- Minimap and radar converted to 2.5/3D

- Controls revised to accommodate the expanded movement.

- Archwings can apply boosters even without sprinting to counter inertia. 

[Retequizzle]

I could see myself getting used to every new aspect of the current Archwing build, with one exception:

Make aiming down sight automatically disable your thrust/sprint/whatever-the-%*(@-you-want-to-call-it.

As it is, Archwing is hard enough to control while I'm doing nothing but flying about.  The last thing I need is the "option" to sprint and shoot while also being able to aim down my sights while moving at a fast enough pace to instantly down myself on collision/inertia alone.  It's akin to texting while driving, except in this case texting is aiming an oversized-gun at a moving object while also being in a moving object.  It's simply not intuitive and I can't be the only one who's noticed this.

I've stated before that if DE wanted to make it a mod-based ability for Archwings then by all means, do so.  You have enough lore in Archwing already to pretty much justify doing this with an Archwing like Elytron - which is, in essence, a slower-but-manageable mobile arsenal.

So this thread gets my vote on that merit alone.

[ViolentCypher]

The old way was better, at least i didnt feel sick every time i had to play an archwing mission. 

[Casval_Rouge]

The problem with AW not being able to take tight turns aren't because of 6dof, its the lack of a sufficient counter thrust.  It's space so DE model AW movement to simulate movement in a vacuum, unfortunately that also makes AW very unresponsive and slow.  You'll notice the drifting happening to show its in space, not within an atmosphere. What they need to tweak to allow tighter turns, make it easier to control and just in general more responsive is increase the power of AW's thrust aka. acceleration for all direction.  Which in space also means deceleration, since AW already auto apply counter thrusts.  Maybe up top speed just a little bit as well so you feel like there is a difference in speed, and not just instant top speed.

Another problem with 6DoF is apparently DE forgot to add a button to roll, that's why they have auto leveling, but that just makes it very nauseating for some because the camera is moving in ways not expected by the player.  Your brain were expecting your avatar to move/change direction in one way, yet the game just very slightly deviates from that at unexpected moments, this causes just a little bit of motion sickness.  You're not feeling what you should be feeling, and seeing what you weren't expecting.  I don't know if this is exactly like car sickness, but it should be very similar in concept.  

 

[CarrotSalad]

I found myself crashing into things unintentionally even on asteroid maps with the new movement system. im giving it a go but i dont think it works even in open space. Hoping for a day when i dont feel like im fighting with the controls in archwing to fly the way i want. It would be nice for a tutorial or proper guide from how we're supposed to manoeuvre in combat with this new flight model. (incase im doing something wrong)

I can envision the controls working if they were something like this.

W -> Gain forward speed (double tap to initiate boosters).

A / D -> lean archwings turning direction double tap for barrel roll back/re-oreintate to center horizon.

S -> drop speed

Space gain altitude, C drop altitude

Hold right mouse button to link camera to the flight controls for sharper turns. Leaning allows the drift/momentum to stay forward but a press of Rmb will cause archwings forward momemtum to shift to the current crosshair direction. edit: when rmb isnt pressed camera is linked to weapon aim.

Edited August 15, 2016 by CarrotSalad

[Eienlanzer]

I love the new 6 degrees of control. I spent a lot of time last weekend playing with it. Using the drift "A and D" keys works very well, as long as you practice when to boost and when not to boost. However, like many others, we need a key to orientate ourselves to a "normal" horizon. Take No Man's Sky for example in regards to rolling with the 'Q' Key. This is executed very well.

[Mak_Gohae]

On 8/8/2016 at 10:15 PM, Suicidal_Bunny said:

     Please revert it back or at least give us an option to choose what flight model we want to use. With current flight model it is impossible to perform tight corner maneuvers. Racing your friends or team mates was one of the best parts about Arcwing game modes as you were getting to the objective or extraction. Now you have to slow down at every turn and it renders having two different boost modes useless. What is the point of giving us ability/ mods to make us go really fast and then making the flight model where you take away the ability to do that in half the content?

                                                                                                                                                Thanks                   

You can still do all of that but it requires different maneuvering.