When Titania can fly freely, why Zephyr can't?

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 8/17/2016 at 5:07 PM, ObviousLee said:

 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, KiryuKusakabe said:

zephyr was created a bit before parkour 2.0 and Archwing were implemented into the game. that is the reason she can't fly.

 

Show me where DE said this or its a lie. Stop spreading this.

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

On 26 August 2016 at 6:20 PM, Esorono said:

Zephyr can fly, you just need to kind of cripple her turbulence build and build for negative duration and max efficiency. The irony is that she makes a better flying frame than Titania still as she can actually move faster than running speed, and with the right weapons can do a hell of a lot more destruction than Titania can. 

Of course since Titania is a fairy frame but destruction can be in any frame, not just zephyr.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

3 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Show me where DE said this or its a lie. Stop spreading this.

Don't think they need to. Dates match up (archwing was announced 6 months after Zephyr dropped), and it's obvious when you get reset from jumping too high that flight was never intended outside being able to cheese preset pathways. Most chest-high pits will reset you too even though bullet jump back up from them.

Oh and gliding is technically flying. I'm mean there's a flying squirrel.

[ashrah]

titania should be able to use wepons too wen fly ....^^

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Don't think they need to. Dates match up (archwing was announced 6 months after Zephyr dropped), and it's obvious when you get reset from jumping too high that flight was never intended outside being able to cheese preset pathways. Most chest-high pits will reset you too even though bullet jump back up from them.

Oh and gliding is technically flying. I'm mean there's a flying squirrel.

So what you're telling me is speculation.

No matter what you try to convince yourself, unless DE themselves says this, it's just not true.

[EchoesOfRain]

There's a clear difference between Zephyr's and Titania's designs.

Compare these two videos

Spoiler

 

Guess which one of those represents Zephyr, and which is Titania. It shouldn't be hard to tell.

 

Yes, Zephyr needs some help, but just giving her Archwing flight is not a smart decision in the least.

 

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Sorry but your waifu Zephyr was left in the dust when they decided mobility needed an overhaul.

*jazz hands*

[Guest]

4 hours ago, ashrah said:

titania should be able to use wepons too wen fly ....^^

Then there isn't much of a point to use Zephyr for mobility, is it? Even if Titania is slower, she can still hover and fly to travel quickly. 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Sorry but your waifu Zephyr was left in the dust when they decided mobility needed an overhaul.

*jazz hands*

Then give her more mobility and team integration. Not necessarily direct flight, but pseudo flight like aim glide. Her other abilities can use an overhaul as well, but I think we should keep it to other threads. This thread should be mainly based on Zephyr's mobility. 

[Clowee]

We don't need more mobility.  Mobility is not the answer. 

First of all, anybody who claims that parkour 2.0 is anywhere in the neighborhood of equaling Zephyr's mobility has no idea how to play or build Zephyr, and you should instantly throw their uneducated opinion in the rubbish bin in your head.  Seriously, don't waste your brainpower on these people.  They don't know what they are talking about and have no idea what they are doing.

Secondly, even if you were to give Zephyr more mobility, it would be worthless.  Mobility is not valuable to a group, especially when it's confined to yourself.

Thirdly has anybody here actually tried to gracefully fly around on Titania other than me?  I'm not going to claim to be an expert archwing pilot, but it's awkward, unwieldy and I'm not doing anything that I could not do BETTER on the ground.  Yes BETTER!  Your dex pixie shots with Titania would do more damage on the ground due to horizontal punch through which is wasted when you are punching through the pavement hitting nothing because you arent damaging lines of enemies.  You can hover at head height yeah, but why not just stand and aim at head height? 

It's a stupid idea, plain and simple.  it's not going to make people like grouping with your Zephyr, and it's not going to fix the problems with the warframe.

[ashrah]

57 minutes ago, Madho said:

Then there isn't much of a point to use Zephyr for mobility, is it? Even if Titania is slower, she can still hover and fly to travel quickly. 

Then give her more mobility and team integration. Not necessarily direct flight, but pseudo flight like aim glide. Her other abilities can use an overhaul as well, but I think we should keep it to other threads. This thread should be mainly based on Zephyr's mobility. 

point is to give more freedom how ppl wish to play

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, Clowee said:

We don't need more mobility.  Mobility is not the answer. 

First of all, anybody who claims that parkour 2.0 is anywhere in the neighborhood of equaling Zephyr's mobility has no idea how to play or build Zephyr, and you should instantly throw their uneducated opinion in the rubbish bin in your head.  Seriously, don't waste your brainpower on these people.  They don't know what they are talking about and have no idea what they are doing.

Secondly, even if you were to give Zephyr more mobility, it would be worthless.  Mobility is not valuable to a group, especially when it's confined to yourself.

Thirdly has anybody here actually tried to gracefully fly around on Titania other than me?  I'm not going to claim to be an expert archwing pilot, but it's awkward, unwieldy and I'm not doing anything that I could not do BETTER on the ground.  Yes BETTER!  Your dex pixie shots with Titania would do more damage on the ground due to horizontal punch through which is wasted when you are punching through the pavement hitting nothing because you arent damaging lines of enemies.  You can hover at head height yeah, but why not just stand and aim at head height? 

It's a stupid idea, plain and simple.  it's not going to make people like grouping with your Zephyr, and it's not going to fix the problems with the warframe.

Thank you.

[zehne]

^

Titania's arch-wing is awkward, but the damage is decent.  Zephyr with just a modicum amount of the 'right' mods can make getting from A->Z as easy as A->B.  That goes without say though, the problems that plague anything that goes too fast in war-frame still exist.  Hitting obstacles is the same regardless of flying or on the ground in most every tileset.  The tiles where there aren't obstacles in the air (heircon tiles) are also the same tiles where hands down Zephyr wins in any 'flying contest'.

In short; Zephyr doesn't need to fly like Titania because Zephyr only needs to 'fly' for <1second to cover the same space Titania can cover in 10.

[Fallenr]

Zephyr can make tornado can create wind that's block bullet but can't make herself fly lol  

 

goodjob DE

Edited August 30, 2016 by Fallenr

[Birdframe_Prime]

15 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

So what you're telling me is speculation.

No matter what you try to convince yourself, unless DE themselves says this, it's just not true.

Calm down Renova, I hear what you're saying, but be reasonable. It's actually a very near certainty that when Zephyr was concepted there were no coded methods for flight anywhere in game. That's what they're saying, even if they may be wrong about it being the specific reason she doesn't fly, they are right that it is incredibly likely that Archwing or any similar topic hadn't even been discussed at the point of the original Zephyr threads that were taken up by DE and made into the frame.

If I were to speculate, I would say that even when it came to update 12, where she was released, the Archwing stuff was still in early concept stage, let alone anywhere near a consideration for a warframe.

To explain, looking back into the history of her, I found The Original Concept Thread from October 2013, and Zephyr was released in February 2014. Archwing wasn't even announced until devstream 35 in August 2014, and released in late October 2014. So, as I said, it was likely that there wasn't even a concepted model of flight available when creating Zephyr.

There's actually a lot of food for thought in the original concept, too. Like the ability Gale Force, which the designer claimed was 'essential' to the kit, which revolved around floating in the air and jetting around in short bursts with melee disabled... remarkably like an Archwing pre-cursor... That ability was obviously read, guaranteed to be tabled and discussed when the concept was officially adopted, but ultimately discarded. Funny, really, because it could have been a great tester frame for the original Archwing model if you think about it. Go take a read ^^

[Azamagon]

11 hours ago, Clowee said:

We don't need more mobility.  Mobility is not the answer. 

First of all, anybody who claims that parkour 2.0 is anywhere in the neighborhood of equaling Zephyr's mobility has no idea how to play or build Zephyr, and you should instantly throw their uneducated opinion in the rubbish bin in your head.  Seriously, don't waste your brainpower on these people.  They don't know what they are talking about and have no idea what they are doing.

Secondly, even if you were to give Zephyr more mobility, it would be worthless.  Mobility is not valuable to a group, especially when it's confined to yourself.

Thirdly has anybody here actually tried to gracefully fly around on Titania other than me?  I'm not going to claim to be an expert archwing pilot, but it's awkward, unwieldy and I'm not doing anything that I could not do BETTER on the ground.  Yes BETTER!  Your dex pixie shots with Titania would do more damage on the ground due to horizontal punch through which is wasted when you are punching through the pavement hitting nothing because you arent damaging lines of enemies.  You can hover at head height yeah, but why not just stand and aim at head height? 

It's a stupid idea, plain and simple.  it's not going to make people like grouping with your Zephyr, and it's not going to fix the problems with the warframe.

Good points. Note that this also one of the problems I had with Titania's ulti weapons, they are just copy+pasted Dual Decurion and Veritux, not actual weapons that would be useful from the air. If she had a weapon that was equally good in air as on ground, then that'd be a whole different story, so imo, she needs a revamp for her weaponry.

As for Zephyr, I agreed that the most important part for tweaking her is NOT added mobility (even though it would be nice of course), but her usefulness and reliability overall. I know it is boring to see suggestions, but I think I have some decent ideas here (mainly for Tail Wind, and some QoL/utility for Tornado and Turbulence):

Tail Wind
Now a cheap toggled ability, which causes Zephyr to continuously fly forward quite quickly. She can steer around freely with this ability, but has to always move forward. As she travels along, she leaves slashing and slightly slowing winds in her wake (either actually slowing enemies, or causing them to be unable to run inside them?). If she in any way crashes into the environment, she causes an AoE impact-shockwave (similar to Dive Bomb). Pressing melee during this flight will cause her to drop down quickly (exactly like Dive Bomb).
If Tail Wind is cancelld midair (by recasting it), it keeps her momentum for a bit, allowing you to use it more or less like the current Tail Wind too!
Power Strength affects damage of the slashing winds and the impact-shockwave.
Power Range affects the width and height of the slashing winds area, and the impact-shockwave's radius
Power Duration affects the linger-duration of the slashing winds.

Dive Bomb's augment is now the augment for Tail Wind (which means: Any time she collides to cause the shockwave, all enemies in the shockwave are dragged into the middle. It could POTENTIALLY also cause enemies to be continously be dragged (not ragdolled ofc, just gradually forced in like with Mag's Magnetize ability) into the middle of the slashing winds?

NOTES: Personally, I find this revamp+merge quite elegant: It gives Zephyr more graceful mobility in the air (while still allowing it to be used, somewhat, like the old Tail Wind), it merges it with Dive Bomb without requiring clunky holdcasts and such AND it improves Tail Wind's offense and utility.

Gale Force
The replacement for Dive Bomb could be anything really, but something that she is missing (which goes well with an airborne character), is an ability that can be used at range. Gale Force is my attempt as that ability.
Gale Force launches a moderately fast, big (hitbox included) ball of destructive, slashing and swirling air. When it strikes a surface or enemy, it explodes and expands a bit in size. Anyone caught in the explosion/expansion is dealt heavy impact damage, a slash proc and are ragdolled away from it.
Power Strength increases damage
Power Range increases initial size
Power Duration increases for how long it expands (effectively adding more range)

While I suggested that the Dive Bomb's augment became Tail Wind's augment, it could also potentially be the augment for Gale Force, as it would work just as well here. Opinions on this?

NOTES: Might not be the best or most original ability, but it could be fun I guess? *shrugs*

Turbulence
Now has a new interaction with deflected shots:
* If the shot is unfortunately deflected onto Zephyr or one of her allies, the shot is weakened a bit
* If the shot is deflected onto an enemy, the damage is increased.
Recasting the ability leaves the Turbulence effect to linger with its remaining duration at the location (giving it a Snow Globe-like stationary protection!). Zephyr can not have more than one stationary and one mobile Turbulence effect up at once. Placing a new stationary Turbulence removes the old one.
Power Strength increases the ally damage-reduction / enemy damage-increase
Power Range increases the size of the turbulence area
Power Duration incrases the duration of the turbulence

NOTES: Added some utility so it could be of more use for the entire team, and to give Frost some competition in the "guard the pod"-niche.

Tornado
Recasting the ability while you have Tornadoes out removes all your current Tornadoes.
Attacking a Tornado by any means also causes all physical damage from that attack to (on top of the attack's normal effects!) split said physical damage among all the enemies caught in the Tornado (includes damage from her Tail Wind and Gale Force abilities!), effectively making it a physical-damage-amp if you manage to strike an enemy inside a Tornado (and if you miss, only hitting the Tornado, you still get SOME physical damage done towards all enemies inside it, making it at least a pseudo-accuracy booster). Enemies are no longer randomly flung out from the top of a Tornado, they will stay in it until the Tornado ends by any means.

Augment has all these new traits too on the Tornadoes, and now also SLOWS enemies instead of lifting them (keeping a lesser CC-component on it).

NOTES: Recasting to end = Less annoying to deal with. The physical damage split both further fuels its utility and makes it synergize really well Tail Wind and Gale Force (Tail Wind more so, due to the lingering slashing winds). Not evicting enemies from the top also improves its CC-capabilities, and further lets you strike enemies in the air more easily with TW/GF, improving her "air superiority"-feeling.

[Skaleek]

Zephyr has been among the lowest tiers of warframes for a long, long time. She needs a rework more than any other frame.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

It's actually a very near certainty that when Zephyr was concepted there were no coded methods for flight anywhere in game.

Ah, that's it. Much better wording then I could do. It ain't easy being tactless.

3 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Now a cheap toggled ability

I actually like the short bursts. Feels visceral. I would like it if it could be cast in more directions instead of just x and y axis. Casting downward would create a divebomb.

And maybe an added perk to tornado where she rides the top of it. I dunno lol.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Ah, that's it. Much better wording then I could do. It ain't easy being tactless.

I actually like the short bursts. Feels visceral. I would like it if it could be cast in more directions instead of just x and y axis. Casting downward would create a divebomb.

And maybe an added perk to tornado where she rides the top of it. I dunno lol.

Thanks ^^ Also, good name selection.

Also, I had a really good idea for the Tornado one! How about simply making every tornado funnel boost players up into the air when they aim glide into it? Like those pipes on the Lua agility puzzle! Tenno trampoline!!

[Azzaruth]

21 hours ago, Clowee said:

We don't need more mobility.  Mobility is not the answer. 

First of all, anybody who claims that parkour 2.0 is anywhere in the neighborhood of equaling Zephyr's mobility has no idea how to play or build Zephyr, and you should instantly throw their uneducated opinion in the rubbish bin in your head.  Seriously, don't waste your brainpower on these people.  They don't know what they are talking about and have no idea what they are doing.

Secondly, even if you were to give Zephyr more mobility, it would be worthless.  Mobility is not valuable to a group, especially when it's confined to yourself.

Thirdly has anybody here actually tried to gracefully fly around on Titania other than me?  I'm not going to claim to be an expert archwing pilot, but it's awkward, unwieldy and I'm not doing anything that I could not do BETTER on the ground.  Yes BETTER!  Your dex pixie shots with Titania would do more damage on the ground due to horizontal punch through which is wasted when you are punching through the pavement hitting nothing because you arent damaging lines of enemies.  You can hover at head height yeah, but why not just stand and aim at head height? 

It's a stupid idea, plain and simple.  it's not going to make people like grouping with your Zephyr, and it's not going to fix the problems with the warframe.

Let's be honest though, she is filling a niche that only two other warframes can boast which is some form of mobility, the other two being Volt and Titania. And neither of them are actually built around the concept, both being Crowd Control frames. We don't need another mobility/crowd control frame, the other two have that taken care of (regardless of how poor they are). This game has more modes to it than going up to wave 100 defense/Intercept/excavation, there are a lot of modes which basically boil down to 'go here, press x and leave' or 'kill everything and leave'. They aren't exactly group content, or exactly hard, but they are still extremely common and doing them as fast as possible is much more valuable that being able to make things within two feet of your enemy float away, or make all the mobs do a dance as the field turns into a rave party. Zephyr fills this role better than any other frame, and any improvements on making her able to clear the field even faster would be better and fufill a niche that no other frame can. I mean sure your Rhino can make defenses much easier, but can he do a rescue mission in roughly thirty seconds?

We don't need Zephyr homogenized just because people are only focused on endless missions with enemies in the upper 200's, as that is just a small part of the game. And it is becoming quite clear that DE is running out of buff and crowd control ideas, just look at Titania's toolkit. The only redeeming quality she has is Archwing movement, granted very sluggish flight, but she is slightly faster at finishing things than a Volt on some maps, also some spy missions are pretty easy with her. As for trying her out gracefully, she does that completely fine, running into walls is very rare, and typically only do so if there is something like a mod or an energy orb hugging the wall. But that mostly just because she is sooooooo slow. And yes, she isn't very amazing on AoE damage as she is using a dual pistol instead of something explosive, if she shot exploding razorflies instead, she would be an entirely different beast in the air.

[Clowee]

4 hours ago, Esorono said:

Let's be honest though, she is filling a niche that only two other warframes can boast which is some form of mobility, the other two being Volt and Titania. And neither of them are actually built around the concept, both being Crowd Control frames. We don't need another mobility/crowd control frame, the other two have that taken care of (regardless of how poor they are). This game has more modes to it than going up to wave 100 defense/Intercept/excavation, there are a lot of modes which basically boil down to 'go here, press x and leave' or 'kill everything and leave'. They aren't exactly group content, or exactly hard, but they are still extremely common and doing them as fast as possible is much more valuable that being able to make things within two feet of your enemy float away, or make all the mobs do a dance as the field turns into a rave party. Zephyr fills this role better than any other frame, and any improvements on making her able to clear the field even faster would be better and fufill a niche that no other frame can. I mean sure your Rhino can make defenses much easier, but can he do a rescue mission in roughly thirty seconds?

We don't need Zephyr homogenized just because people are only focused on endless missions with enemies in the upper 200's, as that is just a small part of the game. And it is becoming quite clear that DE is running out of buff and crowd control ideas, just look at Titania's toolkit. The only redeeming quality she has is Archwing movement, granted very sluggish flight, but she is slightly faster at finishing things than a Volt on some maps, also some spy missions are pretty easy with her. As for trying her out gracefully, she does that completely fine, running into walls is very rare, and typically only do so if there is something like a mod or an energy orb hugging the wall. But that mostly just because she is sooooooo slow. And yes, she isn't very amazing on AoE damage as she is using a dual pistol instead of something explosive, if she shot exploding razorflies instead, she would be an entirely different beast in the air.

Titania doesn't boost team mobility.  Her mobility is limited to herself and is basically of no value to anybody but herself.  It's questionable how much she really benefits from flying anyway.

Zephyr can very awkwardly boost team mobility, but its basically useless.

Volt is the best at boosting team mobility by far, but this is only valuable because of the attack speed increase.

You're trying to fill a niche there's no need for.  Speed is fun, but that's where the value ends.  You will never see "Group LF Zephyr for 30 second capture runs!" in recruiting because other frames being able to complete the same mission in 60 seconds is plenty sufficient to most people.  There's just no demand for this level of mobility, and unless they put a 45 second failure timer on certain missions there never will be.

The moral of the story here is mobility is not valuable to anybody but yourself.  No matter how much of it you have, nobody is going to care about it but you.  I run at an estimated +379% sprint speed on Zephyr, but I still have to wait for the group to catch up to me, and most of the time the additional speed is actually awkward to people who catch a contact on my turbulence and do not expect it.  It's not to say that Zephyr shouldn't be the absolute queen of mobility, but she needs something to sell to the rest of the group so they want to include her.  It does not have to be crowd control.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Clowee

[Azzaruth]

2 hours ago, Clowee said:

Titania doesn't boost team mobility.  Her mobility is limited to herself and is basically of no value to anybody but herself.  It's questionable how much she really benefits from flying anyway.

Zephyr can very awkwardly boost team mobility, but its basically useless.

Volt is the best at boosting team mobility by far, but this is only valuable because of the attack speed increase.

You're trying to fill a niche there's no need for.  Speed is fun, but that's where the value ends.  You will never see "Group LF Zephyr for 30 second capture runs!" in recruiting because other frames being able to complete the same mission in 60 seconds is plenty sufficient to most people.  There's just no demand for this level of mobility, and unless they put a 45 second failure timer on certain missions there never will be.

The moral of the story here is mobility is not valuable to anybody but yourself.  No matter how much of it you have, nobody is going to care about it but you.  I run at an estimated +379% sprint speed on Zephyr, but I still have to wait for the group to catch up to me, and most of the time the additional speed is actually awkward to people who catch a contact on my turbulence and do not expect it.  It's not to say that Zephyr shouldn't be the absolute queen of mobility, but she needs something to sell to the rest of the group so they want to include her.  It does not have to be crowd control.

Honestly it is her only saving grace, because she doesn't benefit at all from either of her crowd control skills, and her tribute is 'meh' at its best. They ran out of ideas, she was built with the idea of flight in mind, and everything else was filler. Though she can technically boost team mobility with her passive, not that it matters that much, but it is there, and her bullet jumps are admittedly pretty nice with a mobilize mod.

And yes, there is no real need for that niche, but it is better to have it than not. What if people enjoy being able to finish things quickly and efficiently? And of course you don't see them ask for Zephyr, because any group who is going to be looking for a specific team member is going to be doing something like a 100 wave defense mission. They aren't going to ask for specific frames for a rescue mission, and the people who want to speed run those tend to want to go solo. It's pointless to have support or CC in missions that aren't extended endless runs, since everything dies in one hit and it is practically impossible to die unless you stand still. So that leaves two important aspects left, speed and AoE, the more you have of both, the smoother things go, simple as that. In an exterminate mission, no one cares about your Nova's ability to slow things down, no one cares that your Excalibur can blind the room, no one cares that Trinity just gave you a defense boost. If you are still running 20 seconds after everyone is at extraction, then they care. 

But by all means, butcher her mobility, take away everything that makes Zephyr Zephyr and throw on some support and CC, aaaaaaaaand nothing changes. She will still not be the best CC, she will still not be the best support frame, so she is garbage to teams and you won't see her on LF groups anyways. It's a meta of competition, we have thirty warframes, and almost all of those fill or at least attempt to fill the CC and utility niche, she can't compete with that without a complete overhaul or an absurdly overpowered ability, so why bother? Her mobility niche is what makes her at least somewhat relevant, take that away and she is nothing.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

isn't zephyr a stone themed frame? i mean she acts like one...

[Birdframe_Prime]

2 hours ago, Esorono said:

But by all means, butcher her mobility, take away everything that makes Zephyr Zephyr and throw on some support and CC, aaaaaaaaand nothing changes. She will still not be the best CC, she will still not be the best support frame, so she is garbage to teams and you won't see her on LF groups anyways. It's a meta of competition, we have thirty warframes, and almost all of those fill or at least attempt to fill the CC and utility niche, she can't compete with that without a complete overhaul or an absurdly overpowered ability, so why bother? Her mobility niche is what makes her at least somewhat relevant, take that away and she is nothing.

You know, since we last had any discussion, Esorono, there's been a lot of great ideas on how to make her better without taking away anything she currently does in the rework threads here. You don't have to make her overpowered, you don't even need to make her a full CC frame and you certainly don't need to take away her mobility.

I also want to note, to everyone not just this conversation, that there's an amazing lack of end-game now, with the changes to the void. It's completely voluntary if you want to go to Sorties, Raids or try for multi-hour runs on Mot, nothing in the star chart needs to be done for more than... twenty waves of defense? So building for more fun is a valid option now, go have fun with her ^^

For example, an idea to make Dive Bomb better; little mechanical buffs like a base range buff with a guaranteed knock-down on anything that's not a boss (something key here is that somebody suggested that it also affect things a little above and below the plane of impact so that a simple slope doesn't negate the effect). The height boost then gives even more range, the usual bonus damage, and at max height is a full rag-doll. It keeps the existing ability as-is, but buffed so it's far more useful, it isn't as suicidal against heavy units that stagger and then ground-pound to knock you down in return, nor is there any need to throw on Heavy Impact to get the effect you want.

A lot of people want it combined in with Tailwind too, and even though I agree, I think they still need to be distinct (previously I mentioned a tap/hold mechanic, but it's even simpler; aim straight down and it puts a target on the ground to show the difference between the Tailwind and Dive Bomb functions. Quick, visual, just as fast to cast it as always) because the two are similar, but purposefully opposite casts.

Add to this that the Dive Bomb Vortex mod would then also apply to Tailwind itself, able to pull mobs off their feet as you jet past, you have an ability that would actually do surprisingly well through the modes.

And that's just a little idea, another one is to give Zephyr a boost to her low-grav function, it's not flight, but it takes an existing function and tweaks it a little; like Loki's wall-latch extension, Zephyr would get an aim-glide extension, a few seconds of null-grav on triggering it that she can move around with the same degree of freedom as she can usually move around in the air (I always found it weird that she can steer as long as she's not aim-gliding...). Have it reset on landing/latching a surface, on casting Tailwind, and you have a great way to play 'the floor is lava' without crippling your Tailwind.

Fixing Tornado's AI would certainly help, there's yards of text I could go into there, because it doesn't need much tweaking to make it into a real area-denial ability where it's currently pretty unreliable as one, just that explaining those tweaks would take time. But a fun addition I saw suggested (I mentioned this earlier in the thread actually) would be to make each funnel act like the Lua Agility test pipes, where any player can aim-glide into them and get boosted upwards. Like Bounce, but voluntary, so more team friendly.

And if you really think about it, a new 2 ability could be done too that doesn't take from her mobility, take inspiration from the original concept thread, if you wanted. The one where she buffs herself and allies, or kicks up a rolling wave of wind... there's plenty to go on.

But just those little tweaks could be the difference between a Zephyr who is only currently about solo running with pure mobility and personal defense, to a more active solo runner, her existing abilities able to fill those gaps in CC and Offense that they currently attempt and fail at.

Sure without a new ability she still wouldn't have any Support function for a team, but just being able to stay alive, actively attacking the enemy, quick-respond to situations from across the map with reliable mobility, reliable CC (even if it's smaller ranged than most), and a 4 that she can leave going without it annoying her team... yeah, that would be amazing.

Don't you think so?

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

On 8/30/2016 at 10:12 AM, Thaylien said:

Calm down Renova, I hear what you're saying, but be reasonable. It's actually a very near certainty that when Zephyr was concepted there were no coded methods for flight anywhere in game. That's what they're saying, even if they may be wrong about it being the specific reason she doesn't fly, they are right that it is incredibly likely that Archwing or any similar topic hadn't even been discussed at the point of the original Zephyr threads that were taken up by DE and made into the frame.

If I were to speculate, I would say that even when it came to update 12, where she was released, the Archwing stuff was still in early concept stage, let alone anywhere near a consideration for a warframe.

To explain, looking back into the history of her, I found The Original Concept Thread from October 2013, and Zephyr was released in February 2014. Archwing wasn't even announced until devstream 35 in August 2014, and released in late October 2014. So, as I said, it was likely that there wasn't even a concepted model of flight available when creating Zephyr.

There's actually a lot of food for thought in the original concept, too. Like the ability Gale Force, which the designer claimed was 'essential' to the kit, which revolved around floating in the air and jetting around in short bursts with melee disabled... remarkably like an Archwing pre-cursor... That ability was obviously read, guaranteed to be tabled and discussed when the concept was officially adopted, but ultimately discarded. Funny, really, because it could have been a great tester frame for the original Archwing model if you think about it. Go take a read ^^

Amazing. A few of my suggestions and your own Thaylien are presented in the original concept of Zephyr. 

However, the concept of flying was not included in this original project as what is being suggested in these threads. The closest thing that resembles a flying suggestion is the Gale Force which is in theory what we have now.

We all need to decide together what Zephyr should become together. All responses that just suggest flying without reasoning or concept should literally be ignored. Honestly all suggested changes without reasoning should be considered bait by all of you who constantly lurk Zephyr threads. They only to get into the same argument where a player who lacks skill with Zephyr uses the forums to vent because they dont like slow falling or they dont know what the purpose of tailwind is in functionality.

Oh and this should be the new divebomb when you press and hold 1