Since when did Hek and Vaykor Hek get these nerf?

[aerosoul1337]

After the shotgun reworks, shotguns keep 50% minimum damage after falloff with ranges.

But Hek and Vaykor Hek don't have this minimum damage cap anymore. (other shotguns still have at least 50%+ minimum damage.)

And their damage falloff starts at 8m instead of 15m.

They now deal about 60% damage at 15m, and hit minimum 27% about 20m.

 

Close range shot: 155 damage (309 when crits)

 

Long range shot: 43 damage (83 when crits)

 

The wiki page still lists Hek's advantages:

• Longest range of all hitscan shotguns.
• Least damage falloff of all shotguns excluding the Drakgoon and Phage which have none. 

Sadly they are now the shortest range shotguns now.

It could have been a long while...

But why can't dev list what have been changed from updates?

EDIT: since Boar prime has improved range (falloff starts at 18~20m) now, maybe it's a re-balance thing not a bug...

 

Update again: Shotgun falloff update (TSG U4.2) .

I did some more accurate range test (by using waypoint, weapons such as atomos which has 15m limit, carrier's attack which has 10m and so on... for references).

Hek: falloff starts at 10m, minimum damage 20%;

Vaykor Hek: falloff starts at 10m, minimum damage 27%;

Tigris: falloff starts at 10m, minimum damage 47%;

Sancti Tigris: falloff starts at 10m, minimum damage 42%;

Tigris prime: falloff starts at 10m, minimum damage 50%;

Sobek: falloff starts at 20m, minimum damage 50%;

Boar and Boar prime: falloff starts at 18m, minimum damage 50%;

Kohm: falloff starts at 15m, minimum damage 53%;

Strun Wraith: falloff starts at 15m, minimum damage 67%.

 

Edited October 5, 2016 by aerosoul1337
update more accurate results

[R34LM]

Surprising, a shotgun that can't be use for long ranges.

[aerosoul1337]

Add no armor enemies as proof:

Short range shot: 639 damage (1278 when crits)

 

Long range shot: 171 damage (342 when crits)

 

[aerosoul1337]

1 hour ago, R34LM said:

Surprising, a shotgun that can't be use for long ranges.

A nerf is a nerf.

They used to be the Longest range of all hitscan shotguns.

Edited September 28, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Zagrax]

It's honestly likely to keep them in line with the lesser shotguns at longer ranges. It does such stupidly high damage when properly modded it still sweeps crowds with no issue even at max falloff.

[HAYABU5A]

Quote

Hotfix 14.7.4

Fixed buffs not being applied correctly to weapons with damage falloff (i.e. Shotguns). Fixes amount of damage dealt at the extent of the weapon's range. Before, damage dealt at maximum falloff range was not considering Mods like Blaze and Point Blank. After, it will now consider these mod buffs in the damage value at maximum falloff range. 
 

reverted or bug sneaked in ? hopefully not intended , sneaky lol

[aerosoul1337]

7 minutes ago, Zagrax said:

It's honestly likely to keep them in line with the lesser shotguns at longer ranges. It does such stupidly high damage when properly modded it still sweeps crowds with no issue even at max falloff.

Not really, at low level only.

I did notice that I can't kill some enemies what I used be able to kill at certain range.

And the effective range nerf is a lot.

Other shotguns have at least 50% minimum damage, strun series have a bit higher though.

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[AdunSaveMe]

42 minutes ago, aerosoul1337 said:

But why can't dev list what have been changed from updates?

There are some good sample of mmo that always list every single change on their patch notes.

Stop all those stealth things already.

 

Some things just slip through.

And can you give examples? Guild Wars 2 sometimes misses patch notes. Even Blizzard leaves things out. In fact I'd say the majority of them leave things out of patch notes occasionally, and nobody notices it or brings it up.

Edited September 28, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[taiiat]

sure, looks like a bug.

but you didn't test any other Shotguns apparently, in order to like, do any research to try and speed up the process.

so before anything can be done or considered to be done, testing of every Shotgun now must be done? that only slows down response to the issue.

Edited September 30, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed personal attack

[Zagrax]

I used to have a chart someone datamined on reddit, but basically it showed a correlation between max damage falloff and spread, shotguns with more spread did more damage at range (probably to help compensate for horrendous spread). This is consistent with some other observations in this thread.

[aerosoul1337]

On 2016-09-28 at 0:04 AM, taiiat said:

sure, looks like a bug.

but you didn't test any other Shotguns apparently, in order to like, do any research to try and speed up the process.

so before anything can be done or considered to be done, testing of every Shotgun now must be done? that only slows down response to the issue.

Apparently? If I didn't test others the report would have ended up "shotgun falloff changed instead of Hek nerfed".

Didn't I say other shotguns have at least 50% min damage?

I did test all the shotguns.

Drakgoon: no falloff.

Convectrix: no falloff.

Phage: no falloff.

Strun series: minimum damage 65%.

Kohm: 55%

Boar series: 50%

Sobek: 50%

Tigris series : 50%

Hek series: 27%

 

Edited September 30, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed rude remark in quoted comment

[aerosoul1337]

By the way, Boar prime seems to have better range now.

Its falloff starts about 20m instead of 10m now, not sure when did this change though.

[letir]

Make a bug report and call it a day.

[OvisCaedo]

Huh. About how old do you think this bug or stealth nerf is?

[aerosoul1337]

6 hours ago, OvisCaedo said:

Huh. About how old do you think this bug or stealth nerf is?

Not sure, I do not use Hek everyday...

Most noticeable in high level defense missions, even Vaykor Hek is extremely ineffective if you stay in frost's globe (ranged enemies do not come closer in defense missions).

Because damage falloff starts about 8m now and it drops a lot (it deals about 60% damage at 15m, and hit 27% about 22m).

Not sure if it's conclave related change.

 

12 hours ago, Zagrax said:

I used to have a chart someone datamined on reddit, but basically it showed a correlation between max damage falloff and spread, shotguns with more spread did more damage at range (probably to help compensate for horrendous spread). This is consistent with some other observations in this thread.

But Sobek and Tigris series have the same accuracy (spread).

They all have 50% minimum damage though.

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Racter]

What bothers me more than this is the Kohm's damage falloff was increased substantially (and range was reduced) when shotguns got reworked. I haven't taken my VHek out in a while so I was unaware of this issue but the Kohm problem seems related.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Saddens me a bit but I get it...

With pre-nerf Heks, the BEAUTIFUL Sancti Tigris was definitely an Ego-driven, adrenaline-rush cannon that many preferred with single-shot numbers, but at close to mid range the Hek shotguns were simply better due to clip size and spread-damage capabilities in a mob shooter.

The introduction of the Tigris Prime was probably the impetus (it needed to be viable) for the mid-range nerf on the Heks.

Those of us with multi-forma'd Heks must simply accept the change, which makes sense, though it might be a bit TOO much as now you're bleeding into "You need to be so close that you might as well use melee" territory IMHO.

Edited September 29, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Gelkor]

Was the Sobek affected? Back in the day the Sobek and Hek were tied for the longest range for hitscan shotguns, I wonder if they were both changed (indicating maybe a bug) or if it's just Hek (indicating maybe a nerf).

[aerosoul1337]

7 hours ago, Racter0325 said:

What bothers me more than this is the Kohm's damage falloff was increased substantially (and range was reduced) when shotguns got reworked. I haven't taken my VHek out in a while so I was unaware of this issue but the Kohm problem seems related.

Yep, before the shotgun buff, Kohm had 25m effective range (full damage), and minimum damage of 47%.

It used to be viable to longer range build (not using 2 fire rate mods because that increases the spread too much), and still very effective at longer range.

After the "buff", it has 15m effective range, and minimum damage of 55%.

But Kohm has been changed to those stat since the shotgun rework, and it retired from my main weapon for a long time. T^T

[aerosoul1337]

6 hours ago, Gelkor said:

Was the Sobek affected? Back in the day the Sobek and Hek were tied for the longest range for hitscan shotguns, I wonder if they were both changed (indicating maybe a bug) or if it's just Hek (indicating maybe a nerf).

I did list all of them in the reply. (Sobek still has 15m effective range and 50% minimum damage.)

 

Drakgoon: no falloff.

Convectrix: no falloff.

Phage: no falloff. (but if you narrow the beam, the closer the enemy is, the more beams can hit it.)

Strun series: minimum damage 65%.

Kohm: 55%

Boar series: 50%

Sobek: 50%

Tigris series : 50%

Hek series: 27%

 

Edited September 30, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[aerosoul1337]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Saddens me a bit but I get it...

With pre-nerf Heks, the BEAUTIFUL Sancti Tigris was definitely an Ego-driven, adrenaline-rush cannon that many preferred with single-shot numbers, but at close to mid range the Hek shotguns were simply better due to clip size and spread-damage capabilities in a mob shooter.

The introduction of the Tigris Prime was probably the impetus (it needed to be viable) for the mid-range nerf on the Heks.

Those of us with multi-forma'd Heks must simply accept the change, which makes sense, though it might be a bit TOO much as now you're bleeding into "You need to be so close that you might as well use melee" territory IMHO.

Yep Vaykor Hek was undoubtedly the best shotgun.

Now it is a point blank cannon.

[aerosoul1337]

On 2016/9/30 at 0:01 PM, aerosoul1337 said:

I did list all of them in the reply. (Sobek still has 15m effective range and 50% minimum damage.)

 

Drakgoon: no falloff.

Convectrix: no falloff.

Phage: no falloff. (but if you narrow the beam, the closer the enemy is, the more beams can hit it.)

Strun series: minimum damage 65%.

Kohm: 55%

Boar series: 50%

Sobek: 50%

Tigris series : 50%

Hek series: 27%

 

Update: as TSG U4.2, shotgun falloff seems to be changed again.

I did some more accurate range test (using atomos which has 15m limit, and carrier's attack which has 10m for references).

Hek: falloff starts at 10m, minimum damage 20%;

Vaykor Hek: falloff starts at 8m, minimum damage 27%;

Tigris: falloff starts at 8m, minimum damage 47%;

Sancti Tigris: falloff starts at 8m, minimum damage 42%;

Tigris prime: falloff starts at 8m, minimum damage 50%;

Sobek: falloff starts at 18m, minimum damage 50%;

Boar and Boar prime: falloff starts at 18m, minimum damage 50%;

Kohm: falloff starts at 15m, minimum damage 53%;

Strun Wraith: falloff starts at 15m, minimum damage 67%

Edited October 2, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Snowbluff]

On 9/27/2016 at 10:47 PM, R34LM said:

Surprising, a shotgun that can't be use for long ranges.

8m is pissing distance. Also, normally would limit a shot gun's effective range is its spread. :l

[Tau.]

My guess is while the others are more or less inconsequential if they retain decent damage minimums since their spread still heavily dilutes the usefulness of their damage at a distance, the amount that Vaykor Hek's one or two pellets could deliver if they crit encroached on what they intended to be the Tigris series' pseudo-marksman territory.

Idk, I still find use for each type. 

[----Fenrir----]

That would explain the performance decrease I noticed with my V-Hek. More ninja nerfs it seems.