The Vacuum Within: Hotfix 1

[Raven_Face]

Why don't you use other Sentinels for a change then. If the range is the same now, then what's keeping you?

What about me who never wanted this? Are you going to just disregard my feedback because 'majority' ?

What the management is doing isn't being spiteful towards the players. It's a balancing act. Carrier is used too much and it's past the time for balance changes. What did people say when U17 movement system rolled out? Lots of negative things. After a while? They moved on.

Just give it time to sink in and don't act like a bunch of spoiled kids about it.

[DarkOvion]

Also, on a side note...

Chroma, Equinox, Inaros, Ivara, Limbo, Mesa don't have Noggles.

Why are Nezha and Wukong getting noggles before Chroma / Limbo / Mesa (the oldest three)?

[Rapid]

The Vaccum changes make we wish they never made the changes to begin with. No explanation of why they made the changes they did. It makes it seem like they didn't really try and listen to the initial community feedback.

[Noioiy]

You forgot to fix vaccume range DE.

Oh wait.. that 6 meter range isn't a bug is it?

[KunoUshinawa]

Just now, SnuggleBuckets said:

There's a worrying subsector in this community that revels in the unhappiness of their fellow players, gleefully smirking whenever a change occurs that doesn't affect them negatively but does rub others the wrong way. What does it say about these individuals that they extract so much enjoyment from the suffering from others?
The low opinion some here seem to have have of everyone else, thinking of others as entitled, lazy, almost parasitic - scary to see them rejoicing whenever a patch blunders.

I laugh at everyone that complains about stuff like farming and vacuums... Having played games where you literally have to walk over to and choose to pick up loot regardless of what kind of loot it is, just imagine having to walk over and hit "X" every time you wanted to get some ferrite. Even better I've played a game where the most common drops in the game dropped half as often as Tellurium drops in Warframe, to me every complaint is just funny because most people don't know real farming or real frustration is.

[SnuggleBuckets]

@Uzkost So there's worse stuff out there, does that suddenly make this good? It's still bad, just not the worst. How are we ever going to improve stuff if we can't acknowledge that there is still room for improvement?

[LeaserResael]

3 minutes ago, Raven_Face said:

Why don't you use other Sentinels for a change then. If the range is the same now, then what's keeping you?

What about me who never wanted this? Are you going to just disregard my feedback because 'majority' ?

What the management is doing isn't being spiteful towards the players. It's a balancing act. Carrier is used too much and it's past the time for balance changes. What did people say when U17 movement system rolled out? Lots of negative things. After a while? They moved on.

Just give it time to sink in and don't act like a bunch of spoiled kids about it.

And what about those who never asked or wanted this? No one asked for a 6m forced vacuum on sentinels only. Most people asked for a innate frame vacuum ability toggleable for those who did not want the effect. So stop preteding everyone got what they wanted and now they are complaining for whaterver reason, NO ONE asked for this implementation, it was DE who decided for the people like you and the people like me.
They didn't provide alternatives, toggles or anything, they didn't care for those who don't want to have vacuum as an automatic ability. The key phrase is that they didn't care, so people can and have any right to complain.
Stop calling people names just because you think different.

1 minute ago, Uzkost said:

I laugh at everyone that complains about stuff like farming and vacuums... Having played games where you literally have to walk over to and choose to pick up loot regardless of what kind of loot it is, just imagine having to walk over and hit "X" every time you wanted to get some ferrite. Even better I've played a game where the most common drops in the game dropped half as often as Tellurium drops in Warframe, to me every complaint is just funny because most people don't know real farming or real frustration is.

Yeah because all those games are Third Person Shooters where movement and quick reflexes are the main focus right? Oh wait...

[DarkOvion]

Just now, Uzkost said:

I laugh at everyone that complains about stuff like farming and vacuums... Having played games where you literally have to walk over to and choose to pick up loot regardless of what kind of loot it is, just imagine having to walk over and hit "X" every time you wanted to get some ferrite. Even better I've played a game where the most common drops in the game dropped half as often as Tellurium drops in Warframe, to me every complaint is just funny because most people don't know real farming or real frustration is.

Oh well, that the game has changed how a thing worked for 3+ years, and reduced the overall quality of life for the players here is OK, because other games exist that are worse!

Problem solved guys.

This is sarcasm. Removing choice is always bad. Making the game more tedious is not good, and just because other games are more tedious, doesn't justify this.

I have an old workbench in the back garden that's really battered and the draws have either got stuck of broken off. That doesn't excuse the pull draw on my desk getting stuck because the other bench is worse.

They could have given the 6M vacuum to everything else and left Carrier as-is, then everyone would likely be happy.

 

[ograzzt]

Old carrier also was the only option to suck loot from inside troll Limbo's Cataclysm area. It also could help with pulling loot from behind panels in the void which didn't opened thanks to rng in your current session. Good luck with all of these now.

[Retequizzle]

I think they reduced the range literally just so they had a valid argument if we talked about how much this update sucked.

[KunoUshinawa]

Just now, SnuggleBuckets said:

@Uzkost So there's worse stuff out there, does that suddenly make this good? It's still bad, just not the worst. How are we ever going to improve stuff if we can't acknowledge that there is still room for improvement?

You seem to think I was arguing about it being a nerf... I never said that I just said having played worse this game is a cake walk to me and so I laugh at others.

 

I will give the players arguing for the range increase this: Squishy frames with the new vacuum are going to die trying to pick up loot... So my Hydroid is out of comission I didn't play him that much anyways... and I'm sure DE will eventually increase the range... the main page says very clearly: "We're keeping an eye on how this affects Sentinel usage and based on that, will decide how to proceed with Vacuum in the future. This is a work in progress, so please send us your feedback! "

Feedback: good!

Throwing tantrums: grow up, ask politely you get more ants with honey than with vinegar.

[KunoUshinawa]

Just now, LeaserResael said:

Yeah because all those games are Third Person Shooters where movement and quick reflexes are the main focus right? Oh wait...

You use guns? I mostly melee or use powers.

As for what those games are, they are RPGs just like this game and one is a third person shooter/slasher/power usage game.... the other is an overhead-ish shooter/slasher/power usage game. So quick reflexes yes.

[Zyreist]

So, having given it a try, the new carrier change is quite handy, in my opinion, and I hope it retains the new precept regardless of the outcome of this experiment DE is conducting.

As to vacuum... Eh, having tried that out aswell, I would much prefered it to remain a precept I could install or remove as my build suited. The range nerf is, strictly in my observation, hardly a tragedy, it still clears a hallway just as easily as it always did. Now, admittedly I'm not as invested in vacuum as so many responding here clearly are, it's always just been a tool in my box of sentinals, like any other. I've always prefered my kubrows, Wyrm Prime and Diriga.

If Vacuum is to remain a passive inherent to sentinals, so be it, but could we get, say... an option menu or something to adjust what our vacuum picks up, like exempting certain pickups, energy and ammo types for instance? THAT would do it for me, if it's to remain an always on thing.

[letir]

Bring 12 m Vacuum back.

[direcyphre]

Kinda wish there was a resource decoration bundle, as I'll end up getting them all anyway, I just don't want to have to go around purchasing each one. 

[DarkOvion]

Further visual aids:

This is the difference in passes it would take to clear a single level in a 100x100 space.

For the 12M Vacuum, it would require roughly 9 passes to clear the entire area.

With the 6M, it will take you at least 17 passes.

However, due to the nature of the Sentinel, and the sphere it produces, you don't get the full effect of the sphere at 'ground level'.

Maybe deliberately bullet jumping along the ground like some sort of squirrel, but when standing, you have to take into account that the center of the sphere is above the warframe.

The actual intersect point with the ground is a circle roughly 3.7M across, rather than the previous rough 11.25M across circle.

This gets us this sort of spread:

9-10 for the 12M vacuum to pass it, walking / running with a roughly 11.25M intersection.

28+ walking / running / bullet jumping above floor height for the 6M vacuums roughly 3.7M intersection.

If we add a vertical ( a second level, not unccomon on tiles), this same 100M area could take up to 60 passes with the new style 6M vacuum.

While the old-style 12M vacuum could do it in... 9-10, maybe up to 15 as it had the range to grab above and below on bullet jumps.

 

This means according to the math, it will take 3-4 times longer to loot an area than it used to.
This is dedicated time it will require in addition to the mission.

This will likely double the time missions take if you still want to loot, maybe more, which means you get to play less missions overall, meaning everything takes longer and adds to the tedium.

[GhostFeng]

Thank you so much DE for finally addressing the Carrier problem. I love my Kavat but now I have an excuse to dust off my new favorite Sentinel, Wyrm Prime! You guys are the best for hearing us!

[MrPyrotheNarwhal]

Thanks for the update, and while I do feel that 6m on vacuum its a bit small. 10m would be to much. Maybe 7.5m or 8m? Great job so far, love everything you have put out in the wait within.

Spoiler

:p

 

[KunoUshinawa]

Just now, DarkOvion said:

Further visual aids:

Nice Italian flag you got there. XD

Just now, DarkOvion said:

Maybe deliberately bullet jumping along the ground like some sort of squirrel

I will now always picture a fluffy squirrel tail on my warframes when I bullet jump. Also +1 interwebz for you today because of this.

Just now, DarkOvion said:

9-10 for the 12M vacuum to pass it, walking / running with a roughly 11.25M intersection.

28+ walking / running / bullet jumping above floor height for the 6M vacuums roughly 3.7M intersection.

If we add a vertical ( a second level, not unccomon on tiles), this same 100M area could take up to 60 passes with the new style 6M vacuum.

While the old-style 12M vacuum could do it in... 9-10, maybe up to 15 as it had the range to grab above and below on bullet jumps.

 

This means according to the math, it will take 3-4 times longer to loot an area than it used to.
This is dedicated time it will require in addition to the mission.

This will likely double the time missions take if you still want to loot, maybe more, which means you get to play less missions overall, meaning everything takes longer and adds to the tedium.

Very nice break down. I honestly didn't use carrier much so I'm used to picking stuff up manually so my Diriga is now really helpful. But 11.25 to 3.7 is like a... 70% cut?

[VoidProdigy]

They are mocking us with this update name.

[LepraSK]

Wow, vacuum range sucks. Truly a quality of life improvement.

[WhyNotBro]

All Sentinels now have a passive 6 meter Loot Vacuum, no Mods required!

All you need to do is to make it innate for Warframes. Thats is what logic says. That is what time / resources managment says. That is what community asked (cried) for.
But no. Half ranged only for sentinels ( and maybe someday for pets).

Do not wonder why community leaving, with that kind of attitude it's just a question of time.

Seriously, you , DE, had a brilliant opportunity to please your community (and natural sense) by making an actual "rework". What i see now? A nerf. Yes, it is a nerf.

GGWP (not)

Edited October 6, 2016 by WhyNotBro
Delete my comment completely, not just an unconvinient part.

[KunoUshinawa]

Just now, LepraSK said:

Wow, vacuum range sucks.

Haha I see what you did there.

[OfPowerOfWant]

Please no kavat/kubrow vacuum, not worth any exchangeof current abilities, I can move 6 ft if i really am looking for floor scraps...

i don't even want my companion to attack. That's the mod i'm looking for

[MrPyrotheNarwhal]

3 hours ago, PETI258 said:

With each weapon the game becomes more grindier for new players and all players have to pick up the ammo/enery orb drops to enjoy the game after this.
Great job DE.

You ruined the end game with relics now this.

At least the game still in Beta.

You do realise that "new players" don't start with carrier in the old pickup system, and that "new players" still don't. This will not effect them in the least. By the time you actually get a sentinel (IF they get carrier as their first), most will know how the game works, therefore not even being a "new player". If they happen to not get carrier as their first, this would benefit them even more so. See where I'm going with this? Not to pick you out or be rude, but don't use "new players" as an excuse. On a second note, how does each weapon that comes out impact how "grindy" they game is for "new players"? On a third note, the new carrier HELPS with ammo economy by quite a large margin, and running out of ammo doesn't mean the game is the worst in the world, just means you need to pay attention to your ammo and not spray it around 24/7.