The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Troll_Logic]

There have been half a dozen threads slamming universal vacuum, I've decided to make one praising the changes.  Since this thread will be the only one of it's kind, I hope DE doesn't merge it.  Ok, now that's out of the way, let's go.

 

This is a fantastic change.  Seriously.  

 

How did we get here?  Well, DE finally discovered what we all knew; "Vacuum is so integral to the game that is outclasses every other sentinel and companion even with their benefits."  Like coptering, DE decided something needed to be done for variety.  They floated the insane idea of breaking vacuum into three mods and nerfing all the sentinels and companions in one fell swoop.  Thankfully there was a large cry in the tenno universe and DE reconsidered their solution.  

Their solution was an innate ability for all companions to have a 5m vacuum.

Is this perfect?  Far from it.  First of all, it's a considerably smaller area for vacuum.  Second, it ignores cats and dogs.  So it isn't perfect, but it is better. 

 

How is it better?  Well, It's basically allowing tennos to equip a second sentinel.  Carrier is good only for vacuum.  With UV, the tenno can functionally bring carrier along with any other sentinel.  A perfect example is "Long Shadow."  I had to equip helios for the scans.  If that alert was next week, I would be able to equip helios and have vacuum both.  That is fantastic.

 

How is it worse? People are complaining about the smaller vacuum area.  This is true.  Vacuum is 13m while UV is 5m.  These graphics have been making the rounds. 

While this is technically true, it's not functionally true for quite a few reasons.

1)  The heaviest concentration of pickups will be around the player.

2)  The player is not static.  So the 5m sphere around the player really isn't a 5m sphere.  Because the player is moving, it's really a cylinder that extends through that 13m sphere.

3)  So that leaves the top of the sphere that really isn't used unless it's on another floor that the tenno hasn't already been.

4)  Along with the bottom of the sphere that again isn't used unless it's on another floor that the tenno hasn't already visited.

5)  Along with the two farthest sides which is a bit of a nerf.  But again, the greatest concentration of drops will follow the path of the tenno.

So while technically the sphere is much smaller, functionally and practically it isn't anywhere as small as it seems.

 

How could it be better?  Currently, dogs and cats are not included.  DE has said this could change.

One last point is about the 5m radius.  It does seem a bit tight in practice.  Making it slightly larger, say 8m, would be better while still be balanced as innate.  

 

Overall, this is a good change.

[Brachion]

Your weapons have a 6 meter range? Do they all have Primed Reach or something??

[Xerenova]

You forgot the fact that this is THEIR game and they have every rights to change things they see fit. They just can't give in to everything the community wanted. 

[Armed_Monkey]

Edited October 6, 2016 by Armed_Monkey

[-TSA-TimSin]

Didn't see one argument to the question

"I am interested in hearing arguments PRO vacuum range nerf! How is it better now with 6m range as it would be with 12m?"

In case i overread something, please repeat or quote it for me.

[CaptainMinty]

Vacuum was a "quality of life" mod that made players (to be blunt and harsh) LAZY. As someone who has never used Carrier once, I can say easily that the game is still playable. There is a movement system that if you haven't noticed yet, allows us to be incredibly fast. Top that with the fact that most frames either have CC or damage, getting your ammo and resource pickups shouldn't be so difficult for anyone with a brain to know how to dive in and out of danger.

Vacuum was a crutch to assist us in being lazy. Roll around. Enemies seem to miss more the more mobile you are. Resource gathering is not even that hard. Stop being so pampered and lazy and instead actually work for results. I swear, if something gets nerfed, there doesn't need to be an uproar that happens EVERY SINGLE TIME. Warframe used to have some difficulty, but now it is too easy. You should be relishing the challenge, not running from it. 

[Partran]

I'm just going to chime in with the statement that considering the fast paced and energetic gameplay of Warframe, having to break flow to run around pick up little snibbles of stuff is counter to the actual enjoyment and wild abandon of much of this game.

Making the standard Vacuum work with all companions would, in no way, hinder the game. It streamlines the game and makes it more enjoyable, as would shared loot pickups within XP radius.

The simple question is: Does having to pick up every little item add to the game?

Edited October 6, 2016 by Partran

[shyguyk]

All the people unwilling to walk towards loot shouldnt use anything shorter than an orthos prime. That's too much walking to ask for.

Just played a match with it (having never used carrier when it had 12m) and I picked up energy orbs from a stupid range. and people want double this? Jesus.

Would you all have reacted this way if you'd never been given vacuum in the first place? 

Edited October 6, 2016 by shyguyk

[-Amaterasu-]

I really think once people get used to the idea of walking reletively near their loot this will gradually die down, obviously 12m is better than 6m but at the cost of 6m we get to use other sents, save mod slots, and avoid a potentially worse resolution for the universal vacuum situation.

I spent a long time playing this game without carrier and once I got it I could immediately understand why people used it but it's really not as bad as people are making it out to be min many cases even with carrier I would get within 6m of my loot just by running around looking for it all this change means is you need to be a little more accurite with your sprints.

[Brachion]

Having a smaller vacuum radius helps encourage people to slow down a little bit and actually pick things up, instead of blitzing though the level and ignoring everything but the objective. After all, what's the point of having fancy new resource pickups if no one ever actually sees them? Also, it helps keep Kavats and Kubrows relevant, since they were pretty much overshadowed by Carrier's sheer utility in the past.

[F8ted]

They literally elected to go about the worst possible route. They nerfed the original bandaid into half a bandaid. Huh.... What's great is this is another named tally to the disappointing updates that came before Update 19(The War Within). So I am to understand you made a big fuss about vacuum becoming universal, just to nerf it? This is supposed to bring people back? This is supposed to keep people playing? I dunno... I'm beginning to worry that we are just waiting for another progress system to be farmed at a tenth of the speed of affinity. Maybe they should leave the game as is before we get too many updates...

[notlamprey]

10 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

it was 12.5 now it's 6. that's a huge nerf in radius.

It gets worse when you factor in movement speed.

For players who like to mod with an aim towards moving quickly - I have quite a few 1.60+ builds - you've already run over the item before the vacuum begins to function.

I'm right back to being forced to deliberately detour towards any item I want, which feels exactly the same as not having vacuum in the first place. That's what its original implementation saved us from having to do: deliberately detour towards every piece of loot you want.

For all the players using Carrier as a sanity protector, this change is a step backward.

[ComCray]

Oh, you think filling up the forum with thousands of the same posts is helpful? Or will people just ignore the whole forum because of this?

Really bro, the issue is not as important as you all make it out to be. Whiney little such and so...

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

3 minutes ago, -Unscripted- said:

You forgot the fact that this is THEIR game and they have every rights to change things they see fit.

That doesn't make them good, or smart changes though. They could turn every enemy into a giant anus and no amount of "THIS IS MY GAME AND I THINK IT'S GOOD" would make that a good idea.

4 minutes ago, -Unscripted- said:

They just can't give in to everything the community wanted. 

No, but there are several times the community knows better. 1% of the community plays PVP, for example. Back when they first introduced PVP the vast majority of people said it was a dumb idea and they didn't want it. But DE steamed on ahead and now they're mostly just wasting time and resources on something almost no one plays.

[Racter]

5 minutes ago, Brachion said:

Your weapons have a 6 meter range? Do they all have Primed Reach or something??

Are you implying that yours don't? Primed Reach is worth a slot on just about every melee, and even if it wasn't that's hardly a worthy counterpoint.

[-Amaterasu-]

7 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Vacuum is 13m while UV is 5m.

Vacuum was 12m the new Vacuum is 6m, just thought I'd mention it though I do agree with the argument.

Edited October 6, 2016 by -Amaterasu-
Typo

[Xzorn]

7 minutes ago, Brachion said:

Your weapons have a 6 meter range? Do they all have Primed Reach or something??

 

Majority of Melee weapons over 5m base should use Primed Reach.

Orthos Prime has 10m Reach, I believe Heavy Blades are 7 while other Polearms are 8, Staves are 7-8, Jat  8-ish.

A lot of melee weapons have more reach than the current joke that is Vacuum.

[Gritzan]

I don't understand. The previous non-nerfed vacuum worked on the same manner as the new, nerfed vacuum. Whether you can move around to grab loot or not is irrelevant, You could also do it before, except faster, with less pointless fiddling around.

[taiiat]

well that means it's doing exactly what it's intended to do, assist with picking up items without removing the necessity to actually move.

Edited October 6, 2016 by taiiat

[Babellon]

1 minute ago, TimSin-EGT- said:

Didn't see one argument to the question

"I am interested in hearing arguments PRO vacuum range nerf! How is it better now with 6m range as it would be with 12m?"

In case i overread something, please repeat or quote it for me.

well to be honest you might not see any argument at all. I think the devs made it clear this is a WIP, and they're monitoring feedback, in other words adjustments are still an option, theres no need for the players to be hostile about it. One of the things Ive tried to understand in this community is peoples tendency to get hostile toward the company who is blatantly seeking out player feedback and interaction...It would seem people need to understand theyll get more positive responses with positive qualitative feedback, not simply screaming and throwing fits, (you aren't, I'm refering to those who are, and do)

I like the universal pickups. I think that most do, so the primary conversation is then about the distance of it. I think the lowered distance fits more, makes the player interact more, which in turn gives a more balanced depth of play. No game out there simply hands you the prize without any work. We've been letting Warframe slide down that slope to long now. To me this is a good change in the right direction in terms of pushing players to actually play, interact, look around the map, rather than simply run through as fast as possible. The game needs to slow down. 

But, on topic more appropriately, no arguments, simple conversation will suffice. They've opened the floor to that conversation, the least we can do is give them an intelligent one.

[Shockwave-]

Yeah, the top of the sphere is used to get things stuck in the ceiling because sometimes loot just drops somewhere else for one member of the squad.

The bottom of the sphere is used every time you bullet jump through a hallway and are more than 5m off the ground.. which never EVER happens in this game </sarcasm>

While the heaviest concentration around you still is in a flat plane circle the carrier is above you, and the floor is below you, meaning that vertical is important when measuring distance. But even that flat plane circle was reduced by 77% an 8 meter range would still be a reduction of 60%, not much better.

 

The solution was actually quite simple. Don't give carrier anything new. It's new precept SHOULD have been a 6.5m range increase for vacuum. That would have satisfied everyone. Then if helios with 6m vacuum was really worth it, DE would know from usage statistics, if everyone still used carrier then they would know it wasn't worth it.

As it is now, DE will tell us all is well because sentinels are all equally used even while 100% of the player base could be pining away for old carrier. They should have done this change, and in several months looked at it again to see the data. Simple, easy, fair to everyone.

 

Overall this is a horrible, game breaking change that wasn't necessary. It's only good if you prefer helios with 6m vacuum to old carrier with 12.5m vacuum. I don't prefer that, so this is a huge nerf.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Shockwave-

[-TSA-TimSin]

1 minute ago, Brachion said:

Having a smaller vacuum radius helps encourage people to slow down a little bit and actually pick things up, instead of blitzing though the level and ignoring everything but the objective. After all, what's the point of having fancy new resource pickups if no one ever actually sees them?

How is slowing down in a fast paced shooter game a "good thing"?

 

3 minutes ago, Brachion said:

Also, it helps keep Kavats and Kubrows relevant, since they were pretty much overshadowed by Carrier's sheer utility in the past.

Vacuum could be built-in in companions or warframes also.

[Alaizia]

28 minutes ago, TimSin-EGT- said:

Hi,

so vacuum is now built-in all sentinels. Great change and needed.

The topic of this discussion is the range nerf of vacuum.

I am interested in hearing arguments PRO vacuum range nerf! How is it better now with 6m range as it would be with 12m?

 

Edit: Sorry, but i got none. Added a question mark in title.

I agree it was a great change, even if people keep going on about how its a nerf ....now I can have a vacuum without the need for carrier....

[Imaru]

And things like this are why I always try to reserve judgement until after new content comes out. I agree with what you're saying here, and having not touched carrier for months (been using kubrows and kavats) I'm not seeing it as a negative change. In fact, quite the contrary. 

 

It isn't perfect obviously, but it is a step in the right direction. 

[DeMeritus]

Seeing 80% of the userbase trying to figure out what DE was thinking is sort of funny, though at the same time kinda sad.

It makes for an interesting study in pathos, and it makes for an interesting potential meme with Digital Extremes potentially becoming known for making user feature requests become like the old tale of wishing on a monkey's paw.

Edited October 6, 2016 by DeMeritus