The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[letir]

Stop making more band-aids, please.

[Tesseract7777]

If you do anything that makes Carrier's vacuum ability stronger than the other vacuum's than we have solved nothing and are back at square one, that is NOT a solution. Period. 

The problem is that people only use carrier 80% of the time. You don't fix that problem by giving other sentinels vacuum, but still giving Carrier a way to have a bigger radius vacuum. If the ability is to be buffed/buffed back/rebuffed? (lol), then it needs to be for all sentinels/companions, not for just Carrier. We are just recreating the same problem otherwise. 

[armedpoop]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

I meant like beta old. Besides that's an exploit like bunny hopping was in any 90's shooter. It's why it was eventually removed/reworked.

People coptered even in the beta days. It was removed in favour of bullet jumps which were meant to emulate the speed of coptering anyway. This point is invalid no matter how you look at it. Warframe may not have been designed with going fast in mind, but people always have, once they learned how to do it.

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, Azrael said:

But the "easy mode" you're talking about isn't a game-breaking cheese mode, it's just a nice convenience that makes the game more fun for many people. We aren't talking about a tonkor or simulor nerf, we're just talking about picking up drops that RNG has already awarded to the player.

if its effectively negating the use of every other sentinel in the game by a massive majority, then yes, it's in need of a balance adjustment, which is exactly what happened. nobody used anything other than carrier, and "let me die so i can get my carrier back" is and has been one of the most commonly said things in games for quite some time. I'm no exception to this, as one only needs look at my profile to see the obscene amounts of use i have with it. a 6 meter range is absolutely fine, as now players cannot stand in one spot aimlessly and accrue mountains of resources, thus easymode. Now, we gotta work for it, which is absolutely fine by me.

[notlamprey]

Just now, YUNoJump said:

The difference between Carrier and your gamemode scenario is that Carrier is picked because it is more powerful than the rest, not because it is more fun. (don't argue that watching items get sucked into a small hovering robot sack is "fun"). If you use carrier all the time you use him for the efficiency increase and the usefulness. If people played survival much more because it was much more fun, then DE would attempt to make other gamemodes more fun, not to get us away from survival, but to let people "have more fun"; to improve their game. However, if survival was played much more because it gave a much greater reward than anything else, even other endless missions, then DE would consider nerfing it. DE wants as many people as possible to play the game for as long as possible, and "more fun" is probably the best way to do that. More rewards doesn't really factor into this.

but... but I did find it fun.

I had my 1.73 sprint speed, 235% range Valkyr. Popping a room-full of containers at once, and seeing piles of stuff get swept up all at once - that was satisfying. You could even see it on the minimap, and I liked it.

On top of that, I had a nice way of differentially looting for all the things that vacuum didn't pick up. All I had to do was watch and see what was left; it worked fantastically well. I felt like I was using the game mechanics in a way that rewarded my planning.

It simply isn't possible with '6m' vacuum, so a big thing that I found fun is now gone.

[GrimAtrament]

in my experiences having carrer encouraged people sitting around being lazy also once again if it was not in the game to begin with NO ONE WOULD CARE

[NativeKiller]

PRO-Vacuum nerf Tenno: "I don't mind the Vacuum nerf myself, so I rejoice at the pain of Vacuum users. HAHAHAHA! Sucks to be you!"

 

Very classy, people.

Edited October 6, 2016 by NativeKiller

[marshmellory]

2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

If you do anything that makes Carrier's vacuum ability stronger than the other vacuum's than we have solved nothing and are back at square one, that is NOT a solution. Period. 

The problem is that people only use carrier 80% of the time. You don't fix that problem by giving other sentinels vacuum, but still giving Carrier a way to have a bigger radius vacuum. If the ability is to be buffed/buffed back/rebuffed? (lol), then it needs to be for all sentinels/companions, not for just Carrier. We are just recreating the same problem otherwise. 

i think it's worth mentioning that the main problem was that carrier was the only way you could get vacuum, not that it's vacuum was bigger than anything else. giving every other sentinel a slightly smaller vacuum, but keeping it as carrier's specialty isn't really as black and white as you're making it out to be

[Sloan441]

9 hours ago, Gunstray said:

Why, because a QoL mechanic that should have been a thing in the first place was a bad thing?

 

Its their loss if they go with this.

Because you should have known it would never be that simple if DE addressed it.

But, hey, all sentinels now have vacuum. Life is good. Right? You wanted it and you got it.

For me, it doesn't really matter that much. My main use for the Carrier (and now CarrierP) was to keep the guns running. It does that still and arguably better than ever. Resource pickup is nice, but hasn't been a priority with me for the better part of two years. I still will go out of my way for green drops and I'll just have to go a little further now for that and maybe endo.

Lastly, I'm really not going to get excited about it since it'll probably get changed yet again. I'm not sure why they dropped the radius so much, but I'll wager heavy coin it's going to end up substantially more than it is now.

But by all means, let all those heads asplode. It's rather interesting watching people lose their S#&$ over this sort of thing.

 

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, marshmellory said:

i think it's worth mentioning that the main problem was that carrier was the only way you could get vacuum, not that it's vacuum was bigger than anything else. giving every other sentinel a slightly smaller vacuum, but keeping it as carrier's specialty isn't really as black and white as you're making it out to be

I would argue that it is. As someone pointed out in another thread, the actual area of effect you are losing with this nerf is quite large. Anyone who really prefers Carrier, is not going to want to lose that extra range. They are going to use Carrier because it is still the only way to get that optimal range that allows them to play the mission without ever really going out of their way to grab loot. 

Many people are already saying the new range makes it hard for them to still play that way. If you give them one sentinel that allows them to still play that way, they will all use that sentinel. 

It has to be for all of them, or I would argue it is a near 100% certainty the problem would be the same (maybe not 80% usage, but still close enough to it that it basically made little real difference).  

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[Vohim]

3 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

if its effectively negating the use of every other sentinel in the game by a massive majority, then yes, it's in need of a balance adjustment, which is exactly what happened. nobody used anything other than carrier, and "let me die so i can get my carrier back" is and has been one of the most commonly said things in games for quite some time. I'm no exception to this, as one only needs look at my profile to see the obscene amounts of use i have with it. a 6 meter range is absolutely fine, as now players cannot stand in one spot aimlessly and accrue mountains of resources, thus easymode. Now, we gotta work for it, which is absolutely fine by me.

we have to move and kill stuff for loot to drop in the first place

how does  the convenience of not having to  backtrack  actually break the game ?

 

but othe than that 

 

it is a stupid nerf negating the purpose of vacuum altogether  , they could make it have 10m  and everyone would ve been happy 

 

[Shockwave-]

5 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

The difference between Carrier and your gamemode scenario is that Carrier is picked because it is more powerful than the rest, not because it is more fun. (don't argue that watching items get sucked into a small hovering robot sack is "fun"). If you use carrier all the time you use him for the efficiency increase and the usefulness. If people played survival much more because it was much more fun, then DE would attempt to make other gamemodes more fun, not to get us away from survival, but to let people "have more fun"; to improve their game. However, if survival was played much more because it gave a much greater reward than anything else, even other endless missions, then DE would consider nerfing it. DE wants as many people as possible to play the game for as long as possible, and "more fun" is probably the best way to do that. More rewards doesn't really factor into this.

First off, no the amusement park is spot on. You pay one price to get in (just like you pay for a game) and you get all the content. If you love some content and not others the designer doesn't remove the fun content so you spend more time using the less fun content. 

Carrier is "Fun" it lets you have fun. killing things is fun. Picking up loot is not fun. Ergo, vacuum is fun because it lets you have more fun. You are trying to create something from nothing. "fun" and powerful are EXACTLY THE SAME in this case. You choose something because it is more fun. If it were more powerful and less fun you wouldn't choose it. If it didn't increase your overall enjoyment of the game more than other sentinels you wouldn't use it. Whether you want to say fun or enjoyment I don't care but either way Carrier was the best, and most fun choice. Carrier increased overall enjoyment of the game more than any other sentinel. That's why people chose it 89% of the time.

I know my enjoyment is lessened because of this change, as is everyone's who would pick old carrier over a new sentinel.

 

 

[Tesseract7777]

If the range needs to be increased, it needs to be increased, that may yet happen... time will tell. 

But giving Carrier a way to have the "more powerful" vacuum, will simply put the same problem right back into place again. Those who want Vacuum for convenience (most people) will still choose the one with the longest, most effective range, especially since the current range (6m) isn't very large radius. 

[YUNoJump]

30 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

a) why? Just saying it doesn't make it true. Why couldn't it be universal. This is a PvE only issue. It is not Overpowered, it is a convenience, why do you place this artifical restriction on it. In addition many of us would VASTLY prefer it as a universal mod than how it is now. This could be solved with a 6m innate range and universal 6.5m range increase mod. Boom everyone is happy.

b) So you prefer a worse choice. 89% of the player based chose carrier over pets, so the solution is to remove that choice so the players will be stuck with 5o6 choices all of which are WORSE choices than what they had.  How is that good? If we all loved survival and survival got played 90% of the time because it was the most fun game mode you are arguing that DE should remove it, so that people are free to choose from among the other 5, less fun, game modes. That would be a net reduction in fun for everyone. Games are supposed to be fun, you don't remove the "fun" content so that other, less fun content is used just because designers want their stuff played with.

c) Yes, removing vacuum reduces resources for all players.

 

a) OK, the argument that PvE doesn't need balance comes up every time something is nerfed, I suggest you find some threads about it and read about why you're wrong. I do agree that a universal mod may be a better idea, but in that case they should have it that you don't get any vacuum without the mod. We really don't need to buff old vacuum. A universal mod that's just as powerful doesn't really work if we go by the reasoning that my third point is correct though.

b) I can see that you got that survival argument from another thread, I put an argument against it there. The devs want to maximise fun as it keeps players playing, just giving players more power doesn't do that.

c) no it doesn't, the exact same amount of loot drops, you just have to walk a bit further. Don't say something doesn't exist because you have to work a little harder to get it, that's the reasoning of a morbidly obese person lying on their back, starving to death because all the food they have is out of arm's reach.

[Vohim]

46 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

a) vacuum no longer costs a mod slot/power, if it stayed at the same range it stand to reason that it would need to still be a mod, just for all sentinels.

b) Pets don't have vacuum, reducing vacuum allows them to be more viable compared to sentinels.

c) DE just doesn't like vacuum but they want to compromise with the community

 I dont see why they couldnt have made it a universal mod then 

but c did nail the coffin DE flat out wanted an excuse to nerf it  cuz players arent allowed to enjoy the game 

 

 

[-BKB-SamuarJoe]

agreed DE should buff up Universal Vacuum range to back 12m instead of 6m, period

really 6m? how if you got 12 rare resources stay there but you can't even reach it, it will be like try pickup ayatan star on river but you just can't

Edited October 6, 2016 by SamuarJoe
so?

[ObviousLee]

1 minute ago, Retepzednem said:

we have to move and kill stuff for loot to drop in the first place

how does  the convenience of not having to  backtrack  actually break the game ?

 

but othe than that 

 

it is a stupid nerf negating the purpose of vacuum altogether  , they could make it have 10m  and everyone would ve been happy 

 

it's a fantastic universal buff to all sentinels, and carrier received a sidegrade that negates the need for mutation mods. again, 6m. is. fine.

I've been playtesting in several game modes, with several sentinels and it's fine. you just have to move around slightly more and if that's an issue for you, then online ninja games might not be your thing.

18 feet is a fine distance. and with 202 million affinity and 99% use on carrier, if I can be fine with it, so can anyone else.

[leeliam]

well i guess it time to stop playing now cos they Nerf the best ting in the game cos 80% of the ppl are useing it who care that what to use it. it not like they what to use other ones cos they care about loot more then a shade or a dum &#! death cube but know cos 80% the ppl use some ting thay got to make it suck that a smart ting to do if u don't what ppl to play any more  BEST NERF

[Gunstray]

9 minutes ago, Sloan441 said:

Because you should have known it would never be that simple if DE addressed it.

But, hey, all sentinels now have vacuum. Life is good. Right? You wanted it and you got it.

For me, it doesn't really matter that much. My main use for the Carrier (and now CarrierP) was to keep the guns running. It does that still and arguably better than ever. Resource pickup is nice, but hasn't been a priority with me for the better part of two years. I still will go out of my way for green drops and I'll just have to go a little further now for that and maybe endo.

Lastly, I'm really not going to get excited about it since it'll probably get changed yet again. I'm not sure why they dropped the radius so much, but I'll wager heavy coin it's going to end up substantially more than it is now.

But by all means, let all those heads asplode. It's rather interesting watching people lose their S#&$ over this sort of thing.

 

 

That's a nice of saying losing money is fun

[Vohim]

How exactly did a 12m vacuum break the game , explain how would it break the game even as a universal mod , heck  how would it break the game if it was  built into warframes ?

 

its not like it increased rare loot drop rates or caused orokin catalysts and reactors to spawn we got the same  trash we get anyways , we simply dint have to back track and run all over the map unnecesarily

 

if DE's purpose was truly  to make all companions be used  more wouldnt it make sense  making all sentinels  and/or pets be able to vacuum with the  actual  working  vacuum? or simply build it into frames?

[Sloan441]

1 minute ago, Gunstray said:

 

That's a nice of saying losing money is fun

Actually, it's a not-so-nice way of saying people are overreacting.

[Magneu]

If you're quitting because loot is slightly harder to pick up, I'm afraid you may have never been actually playing at all.

[-BKB-SamuarJoe]

agreed Vacuum need to be entend to 12m at least for all sentinels

[marshmellory]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

I would argue that it is. As someone pointed out in another thread, the actual area of effect you are losing with this nerf is quite large. Anyone who really prefers Carrier, is not going to want to lose that extra range. They are going to use Carrier because it is still the only way to get that optimal range that allows them to play the mission without ever really going out of their way to grab loot. 

Many people are already saying the new range makes it hard for them to still play that way. If you give them one sentinel that allows them to still play that way, they will all use that sentinel. 

It has to be for all of them. 

the area of effect doesn't matter when you are only considering the displacement of one item from another. if we were discussing like.. how much liquid we could pick up with carrier then vs now then it would be relevant but it really isn't in this scenario.

i do get your point there tho, a range buff to carrier might mean that everyone just flocks back to carrier. if they don't decide to outright buff the vacuum range on all sentinels, it might be wise to wait a little bit before buffing carrier's range back to how it was so people can get used to the lower range

[YUNoJump]

4 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

First off, no the amusement park is spot on. You pay one price to get in (just like you pay for a game) and you get all the content. If you love some content and not others the designer doesn't remove the fun content so you spend more time using the less fun content. 

Carrier is "Fun" it lets you have fun. killing things is fun. Picking up loot is not fun. Ergo, vacuum is fun because it lets you have more fun. You are trying to create something from nothing. "fun" and powerful are EXACTLY THE SAME in this case. You choose something because it is more fun. If it were more powerful and less fun you wouldn't choose it. If it didn't increase your overall enjoyment of the game more than other sentinels you wouldn't use it. Whether you want to say fun or enjoyment I don't care but either way Carrier was the best, and most fun choice. Carrier increased overall enjoyment of the game more than any other sentinel. That's why people chose it 89% of the time.

I know my enjoyment is lessened because of this change, as is everyone's who would pick old carrier over a new sentinel.

I do have to give you this point, I didn't really think of adding efficiency as a way of adding fun.

However, I can make the point that they still need to balance sentinels, and balancing the other sentinels to the same level as Carrier would create some ridiculously powerful abilities in order to balance damage/combat based abilities with Vacuum, a utility. Stuff like Vaporise and Crowd Dispersion would have to deal much more damage than any player-usable weapon, and I don't even know how you could balance scanning enemies. It's simply impossible to balance sentinels without nerfing Vacuum. 

I understand that this really isn't a good thing, but it's a harsh necessity. You can't solve overpopulation by making the planet bigger.