The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[-CCC-Secret]

24 minutes ago, pagepro said:

No, what DE did was tie it to sentinels...

You do know they said they might consider adding it to pets too. I know it's a 'MIGHT', but it's something.

[Azrael]

49 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

if I can be fine with it, so can anyone else.

Please don't make this kind of "everyone should agree with me" argument. It is insulting and invalid.

 

50 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

you just have to move around slightly more and if that's an issue for you, then online ninja games might not be your thing.

The issue isn't having to move around. It's not being able to move around. If I can't parkour past things at mach 10 and pick things up, then my problem isn't "moving too little," it's the exact opposite.

 

35 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

wait till you're passing 3.5 sprint speed and still not having issues.

I don't care about your sprint speed, it's about your parkour speed. I want to parkour through rooms without having to stop and run in a circle.

 

I actually feel like 6m is doable. But I can't stand it when people make arguments based on misstating what other people are saying. This isn't about "not wanting to move around" or "being too lazy to hit wasd" or "wanting easy mode." It's about wanting to feel like a high-speed ninja, and not wanting the game to be mainly about picking up loot.

[OtakuPizza]

whats hilarious is despite being a ninja that can acrobat all over the map u guys want something like a vacuum i am ashamed of all fellow tennos you need to depend on something so simple yet stupid to play to your full potential .

RIP war frame skills.

if i could i would just get rid of vacuum from the game .

 

 

[-CCC-Secret]

2 minutes ago, Alcoholism said:

Chill guys, it's a WIP and they are simply just testing this out and seeing how the WF playerbase uses the sentinels and companions now.
They have said companions weren't completely off the table. They also said it's "a community driven experiment" and that "This is not the final book in this conversation, just the beginning."

Please use this time to discuss the changes and come up with a good suggestion and provide sensible feedback. Now is not the time to make conclusions or to bash DE for their efforts.
It would seem the community have not read deep enough into DE's reasoning for doing this.

[TigerACE08]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

I am not sure of what i will say, don't quote me on this please.

One friend told me this long time ago, and upon his advise, i tested it and it gave a positive result.

enemies do read what mods you have on your sentinel, and when you place the "self destruct" mod on it, they will fear to attack it.

I tired it and i had a positive result. i am not sure if this is a fact or a simple coincidence,. but surely it made my carrier live longer.

One more time, don't quote me on this as i am not sure that if this is a fact or no.

Well, even if it does work, I don't really think it would help much when you're in fights against the high level enemies that love to spam AoE attacks, such as Fire Eximus units.

Not saying you're wrong or anything, it's just my helios frequently dies from anything with AoE, so enemies attacking my warframe still end up killing my sentinel.

[friendofvampires]

47 minutes ago, jodarkrider said:

The patch did make Carrier useless for me, with its' new precept. I'm a melee player, so.. yeah.

I think, the better solution would be to give innate sucking Vacuum to both Sentinels, Kubrows and Kavats, keeping it at those 6m range, and keep the original vacuuming range for Carrier only. Those, who want to keep the longer range can stick with Carrier, and for those where it's not such a big deal (ie they don't mind picking up their loot manually as much), use anything else, more to their liking. This hurts no-one and offers the variety, thus a better solution if you ask me.

See the discussion at that point its not about vacuum, but is then dealing with the innate pickup range in warframe which is currently 0m

[PapaFragolino]

Make it a @(*()$ universal warframe passive, period.

 

I really don't understand, is it that hard to understand that loot acquisition is a core mechanic and not a luxury?

Edited October 6, 2016 by PapaFragolino

[NeithanDiniem]

13 minutes ago, letir said:

Some people actually trying to improve game, this is why Feedback section exist.

If you are fine with "miltigation" role, you can happily spend hours in game.

And some people are actually trying to argue the counter point that it is fine, as we are fully within our place to do so.

Also Mitigate: Make less severe, serious, painful. Lessen the gravity of (an offense or mistake)

If I'm fine with the less painful role, I should spend hours in game? Okay then, Ill do just that.

Edited October 6, 2016 by NeithanDiniem

[Evanescent]

1 minute ago, PapaFragolino said:

Make it a @(*()$ universal warframe passive, period.

 

I really don't understand, is it that hard to understand that loot acquisition is a core mechanic and not a luxury?

Tbh I'd prefer that too, but DE just does not like the idea it seems.

[MagPrime]

No, we must rous the rabbles!  Rebel!  Cause anger!  Grr, arg!

But top ideas, Ev.  Seriously.

1 minute ago, PapaFragolino said:

Make it a @(*()$ universal warframe passive, period.

 

I really don't understand, is it that hard to understand that loot acquisition is a core mechanic and not a luxury?

Skip the passive, dispense loot at the end of the mission.  This allows players to focus on the mission objective as well as the side objectives, likes Synthesis scanning, 10 headshots or Cephalon Fragments. 

[Heckzu]

To be honest, I see this change as a good thing.

6m is still enough such that you don't need to walk on top of a resource to get it.

The reduction in vacuum range also means that it's less likely for items to be vacuumed and glitch outside of the map such that other players can't get the item if they don't have a sentinel.

Only 2 sentinels were 'nerfed' by -6m vacuum range, but received a new mod as compensation which solves a lot of ammo efficiency problems

8 sentinels gained +6m vacuum range with no downsides.

The pros outweigh the cons. The only ones to get the short end of the stick are kubrow/kavat users since they received nothing this patch.

 

[(XBOX)Oussii]

1 minute ago, TigerACE08 said:

Well, even if it does work, I don't really think it would help much when you're in fights against the high level enemies that love to spam AoE attacks, such as Fire Eximus units.

Not saying you're wrong or anything, it's just my helios frequently dies from anything with AoE, so enemies attacking my warframe still end up killing my sentinel.

My friend, i never loose my carrier even in sortie... even when i am down (rarely), i still keep it.

I don't know if it is the built, or pure luck:)

PS: at the beginning of each game, i drop 2 shield pads, raising the over shield of the sentinel. i maintain it like that mostly the whole game.

But i am not sure if this is the reason, maybe you should try it bro, u have nothing to loose

[ObviousLee]

8 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Please don't make this kind of "everyone should agree with me" argument. It is insulting and invalid.

 

The issue isn't having to move around. It's not being able to move around. If I can't parkour past things at mach 10 and pick things up, then my problem isn't "moving too little," it's the exact opposite.

 

I don't care about your sprint speed, it's about your parkour speed. I want to parkour through rooms without having to stop and run in a circle.

 

I actually feel like 6m is doable. But I can't stand it when people make arguments based on misstating what other people are saying. This isn't about "not wanting to move around" or "being too lazy to hit wasd" or "wanting easy mode." It's about wanting to feel like a high-speed ninja, and not wanting the game to be mainly about picking up loot.

you do realize that 3.5 sprint speed is faster than parkour velocity, right?

 

on top of which, if you're moving at "mach ten" guess what happens? carrier eventually drops the items it was pulling. kinda had that happen to me a buncha times from moving at insane speeds. increasing the range will not fix that.

if you're rushing a mission? what are you passing up? enemies/containers and the like. which means that guess what: carrier isn't picking up anything as well.

you've kinda invalidated your own argument here.

Edited October 6, 2016 by ObviousLee

[Wolfdoggie]

Well after playing a bunch of games today with the new vacuum I can say by experience now that I 100% hate the change. I'm basically making physical contact with every item before vacuum even pulls it. I'm having to circle rooms I normally wouldn't have to and generally build up a lot of wasted time I coulda used being a ninja instead. Looking for relics and syndicate tokens is more time consuming since I generally found them via radar when there was an item that Carrier didn't pull; telling me that that's most likely a token/sculpture.. 

[TrickshotMcGee]

I've never felt it necessary. This nerf only bothers me because it's a blatant nerf, despite the players (well, the players that actually care about it) being 100% clear about what was wanted and DE 100% disregarded it. 

I, too, used it most in the void for quick gold mod farms and ensuring I always got the Argon. I also occasionally used it for Nekros farms, as murdering entire crowds provides quite a lot of loot to run around and collect, more so with Desecrate. Simply made my life a little easier, but by no means a necessity. 

 

To summarize my thoughts: My opinion is that, while convenient, Vacuum is not necessary. On the other hand, it's a commodity to speed up a normally tedious facet of an otherwise very fast-paced game. I understand that DE wants us to slow down and look at our surroundings, actually appreciating the game, but making us play 52-card pickup for loot drops is not a very nice way to do it. And it's been made rather clear that players flat-out don't like it. Of course, some players don't seem to mind, but many of them probably grew up on the Diablo games where if you wanted loot, you had to go get that sh-t. I can respect that state of mind, and usually feel the same way, as I grew up with the same games. However, most people hate doing that, and it's something I can also relate to quite easily with my experience with games of the MMO genre. Clearing a field where 75% or more of the enemies drop loot and having to go to each spot to pick up each individual bit is honestly just boring. Not counting container drops in entirely different rooms that drop without you noticing, which is a legit issue with the Ignis or explosive weapons.

I can see how it's convenient, and in some eyes important, and I appreciate that convenience myself, but it's something DE put in the game to alleviate some of the tedium they created, then they nerf it in order to give us more tedium. If nothing else, it was a shady and underhanded way to knock it down a couple notches while technically giving us what we asked for. 

[Darkvramp]

or just give vacuum as a passive to all warframes. its that @(*()$ simple oh and WHY THE F*** DOES IT NEED TO HAVE REDUCED RANGE!!!

[AdunSaveMe]

8 minutes ago, Alcoholism said:

Chill guys, it's a WIP and they are simply just testing this out and seeing how the WF playerbase uses the sentinels and companions now.
They have said companions weren't completely off the table. They also said it's "a community driven experiment" and that "This is not the final book in this conversation, just the beginning."

Please use this time to discuss the changes and come up with a good suggestion and provide sensible feedback. Now is not the time to make conclusions or to bash DE for their efforts.
It would seem the community have not read deep enough into DE's reasoning for doing this.

They haven't given us any reasons. They never do. They haven't told us why the range has to be reduced. They've said "we're thinking about having it on other companions, things MIGHT happen! :DDDD".

We've always provided sensible feedback; there's always been vitriol, but there has always been feedback. But time and time again they respond to that feedback and go "hey we listened to ya" and give us something similar to what we asked for, in a completely different way, bundled with changes we don't want, then people like you wonder why we're upset.

Edited October 6, 2016 by AdunSaveMe

[Alcoholism]

Spoiler

5 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

Sentinels: Constant, 8m vacuum. 

Kubrows& Kavats: receive a new Precept Mod:

'Covetous Call':

Every 8 seconds, the Kubrow/Kavat does a howling animation and summons all the loot within 20m to itself. It picks up the loot for the player.

So, you now have a choice: Do you want a longer range and less intensive Pickup precept? Or do you want a constant 8m vacuum so you can pick stuff up as you go along.

The way I see it, you can now tailor your companion to either keep picking up loot for mission types like Exterminate or Survival, or be patient and have it pick up all the loot a little less frequently, which is useful in mission types like defense and to a lesser extent, Interceptions, for example where you don't move much.

Chesa Kubrow get's a new precept called:

Industrious Instinct:

The Kubrow carries upto 100% of your full ammo capacity across the board, replenishing from surplus ammo pickups. What this means is that if your total ammo pool is 800 rifle ammo and 210 pistol ammo, the kubrow will carry that amount around and supply it to you if you run out of ammo or are low on ammo, and it will restock the supply with ammo drops in-mission.

There you go.

 

Nice job giving some suggestions and putting in some thought.
Good to see some people are using the forums correctly.

 

[TigerACE08]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Oussii said:

My friend, i never loose my carrier even in sortie... even when i am down (rarely), i still keep it.

I don't know if it is the built, or pure luck:)

PS: at the beginning of each game, i drop 2 shield pads, raising the over shield of the sentinel. i maintain it like that mostly the whole game.

But i am not sure if this is the reason, maybe you should try it bro, u have nothing to loose

I guess that would be acceptable. To be quite honest, I tend to not really care about the survival of my sentinel, so I never really buffed it with anything.

So, if anything, it's most likely a problem on my end for not caring, but, I mean, eh, it's just a game anyways.

[YUNoJump]

4 minutes ago, Heckzu said:

To be honest, I see this change as a good thing.

6m is still enough such that you don't need to walk on top of a resource to get it.

The reduction in vacuum range also means that it's less likely for items to be vacuumed and glitch outside of the map such that other players can't get the item if they don't have a sentinel.

Only 2 sentinels were 'nerfed' by -6m vacuum range, but received a new mod as compensation which solves a lot of ammo efficiency problems

8 sentinels gained +6m vacuum range with no downsides.

The pros outweigh the cons. The only ones to get the short end of the stick are kubrow/kavat users since they received nothing this patch.

 

This is a very good summary of the situation, pretty much the only reason the new system is viewed as bad is because a lot of people were too used to having the old carrier on all the time, and haven't had the time to get used to life with only half a carrier.

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

get. that through. your skull.

 

7 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

you could gather resources from 36 feet around you with absolutely no effort which in game design is commonly referred to as "not functioning as intended" as again, it mitigates the need to use any other sentinel

*sigh*

If you're going to disagree, that's fine. But could you at least do so in a respectful way that correctly recognizes what people are actually saying?

Carrier worked as intended. The reason people only used carrier was that they didn't feel as if they could  use others, not because they didn't need to. We aren't asking to stand in a room and not move, we are asking to be able to move freely. It's literally the exact opposite of what you are saying. And since when was the challenge of warframe based on walking in circles to pick things up? This game isn't about that.

 

3 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

you do realize that 3.5 sprint speed is faster than parkour velocity, right?

So what? Who cares how fast you go? Range isn't dependent on speed. When you parkour, you are higher in the air, and cannot "run in a small circle." You are asking people to not parkour anymore. Instead, we should stop and run in small circles. That isn't most people's idea of fun. Why are you even talking about sprint speed? That has literally nothing to do with this.

Again, I actually think 6m is doable. But please stop misrepresenting the issues, and please be respectful to people who disagree with you.

[LightBriite]

Ever heard of balance? They did the range nerf because the point was to get people OFF of Carrier so much, if they kept the range still on Carrier people would more than likely STILL stick with Carrier even with the others getting Vacuum as well. I mean Smeetas are by all means more useful with utility than anything the carrier can do but still yet people fell back on carrier after the much warranted nerf to the resource stacking, not only that they adjusted his utility to provide ammo mutation and better ammo pool for some weapons it's called BALANCE.

[----Fenrir----]

26 minutes ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

as to the complete lack of necessity of having vacuum, or universal vacuum, or whatevs

Vacuum is convenience. And like everything falling into that category it is not necessary at all. People do not require a vacuum cleaner at home. There are tools available since the middle ages that do basically the same without requiring energy. Those are just way less convenient and require more work to get the same job done. Same with a TV remote. It's not necessary at all. It's just way more convenient to have one instead of having to get up every time and go to the TV to switch a channel. Cars? Just take the bus or use your feet!

No one really requires convenience, but it sure as hell makes life less tedious.

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

I think we as players tend to forget that not everything in games is meant to be "fun".

Picking things isn't about being fun, it's about getting something even if it means to be put in a tight spot. In most games where ammo drops, you have to pick it, even though many times it's not fun to look at the floor to find it. Our case is the same, ammo matters, but it's a pain to pick, although I do agree that our pick up radius could get just a tiny bit wider and it wouldn't hurt the game, since the game uses endless spawns and procedurally generated levels, there's no control over how much you need to beat it and we end up needing lots of ammo. Drops are all about getting something through a minor inconvenience, if you don't want to face the inconvenience then you don't get what dropped.

Decreasing that inconvenience is okay, but when it's too much, you are not really decreasing, you are removing it.

I have no issues with 6 meters, less than that would be rather crappy, it still saves a lot of trouble but without doing too much.

 

What happens when you have too much is that you can keep getting rewarded and keep your guns going without facing as much risk. The more range you get, the less risk you need to face for possible rewards or to keep your guns going, this is why games have ammo dropping and you have to walk over it, to keep going you need to risk it, and we just seem to forget that we are still playing a shooter, ammo and picking ammo should still matter, else I will just tonkor on a corner and get ammo from 12 meters away and since the enemy can't get around I just keep killing them, getting ammo and repeat the cycle.

We also forget that materials are supposed to matter, and are supposed to make you play and get what you need. Crafting systems are all about being an inconvenience that you beat by going wherever the material is, because if you make getting materials as fast as clapping our hands, you might as well not code crafting into the game, but the game needs that to keep players going to places. And in most games it's all about facing a danger to get the mat (and pick it), but you can just shoot through a wall and pick it through the wall, where's the danger?
Also, most of the problematic materials right now aren't problematic because we can't pick them, but the limited availability, and picking radius is more like a placebo for their issue, it doesn't solve it, at best it only makes it very slightly not as noticeable.

See, the matter isn't about being fun or not, the thing is that if we just keep making game elements too easy or trivialize them, the game will become boring and uneventful, this is why we get certain nerfs, and perhaps why 12 meters is too much to go on every sentinel without any drawback besides, and perhaps only for now "people that use cats or dogs doesn't get it", and we already have issues because of certain things being made too easy or trivialized.

 

I find 6 meters to be enough, it's not just 6 meters, it's 12 meters wide at it's extremities, and in a game where most maps are rather tight, 12 meters from side to side is more than enough to wipe corridors and most rooms, only very large rooms will take a couple more seconds to clean (it doesn't even take that much in comparison, it takes a LOT more without vacuum at all). We did lose 6 meters, but in trade every other sentinel got 6 meters, perhaps now we can set things in motion for certain sentinel related issues to be looked at, since more people will be using sentinels that rarely get any use and so also barely get any feedback and support.

On another note, it's time for Dethcube to get some love, give him some love DE, make him actually useful because he can't compete with other sentinels at all anymore.

Edited October 6, 2016 by God_is_a_Cat_Girl

[Azrael]

7 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

on top of which, if you're moving at "mach ten" guess what happens? carrier eventually drops the items it was pulling.

Oh good lord. It's NOT ABOUT SPEED. It's about parkour making you far enough away that it is hard to pick things up. It's about having to stop parkouring around so you can pick things up. Having to stop every two tiles so things catch up is fine. Having to stop every single time something drops is less fine.