The Vacuum Within: Hotfix #2

[Kingmana]

I like it, thanks DE!

[Rec7A]

Hi all !

My point at this moment :

1/ Ammo case mod override ammo mutation mods,  so ATM Ammo case = useless.

2/ Conversion rate is very to low to be effective on high ROF weapons.

Hope this mod gets some tweaks, for now, Carrier as no working specialisation.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Rec7A

[Rec7A]

On jeudi 6 octobre 2016 at 10:55 PM, Babellon said:

Fair change. That should definitely make everyone happy now. --waits for someone to still find a reason to be mad at something--...

 

1/ Ammo case override ammo mutation cards,  so Ammo case mod = useless.

2/ Conversion rate is very too low to be effective on high ROF weapons.

Need more ?..

Edited October 10, 2016 by Rec7A

[PapaFragolino]

2 hours ago, Shadow3274 said:

No one ask for your opinion drop it

As a fact DE wants everyone's opinion, be it people praising them or hating on them.

[Alanthier]

18 hours ago, God_is_a_Cat_Girl said:

This is a bummer, now I have to lose another mod slot for this. Can I keep my 6 meters without a mod? I don't need 12 meters, only 6, but I also need that slot. : /

Or...they could have made it 12m for passive instead of 6, like the logical solution would have been...but that makes too much sense right?

[marelooke]

4 minutes ago, Alanthier said:

Or...they could have made it 12m for passive instead of 6, like the logical solution would have been...but that makes too much sense right?

Or 6m passive and a mod for the lazy people that really think they need 12m...

[Btabc]

I like that every sentinel has their own passives now AND vacumm, however I can still see where carrier will be more used because of its Ammo Case.  Making it (vacumm) a passive would have been nice, but keep it at the 12 meter than the 6 would have been better.  That's just my opinion, I just play the game :)

[marelooke]

The entire thing honestly feels like an attempt at throwing players a bone in an attempt to make them forget The War Within's delays rather than a well thought out change by tackling a long-standing problem in a rather ad-hoc and poorly thought through manner. At least that is how it appears given the speed at which De backpedalled on this change. Even broken lights took longer to get fixed.

Anyway, I tossed Ammo Case and put Vacuum back. Given that Carrier is by far the sturdiest sentinel I still see no reason to use any other Sentinel (barring Helios, for obvious reasons) if min- maxing is what you're after.

[TheOldOne]

I was happy with the change, not so happy with the range, and this might be a balanced way to address it.  (But if you ever want vacuum range to increase with a sentinel's  level, I say go for it.)

[Hithrenluin]

thank you!

[AuroraSonicBoom]

The drawback for having a full strength vacuum now is way too low. One mod with 9 points? Come on.

At least keep the mod away from pets please. We don't need every damn companion to encourage people to do what they did before with carrier, i.e. not move around.

[marelooke]

12 hours ago, Furyoushounen said:

I wholeheartedly disagree. I think they made the best choice for most players. If you don't like Vacuum, don't use it!

 

"Don't use it" doesn't particularly solve the issue of the playstyle Vacuum promotes (I have enough of most resources so tend to use my Kavat more nowadays). Getting rid of it would have ended up forcing people to play more as a team, or miss out on drops (you know, the way it was before everyone had a Carrier), since just running around Vacuuming all the loot the hallway heroes generated wouldn't have been an option anymore. While it certainly wouldn't solve all the related issues it'd at least have been a step in the right direction. But whatever I guess...

 

Edited October 7, 2016 by marelooke

[DarkOvion]

35 minutes ago, marelooke said:

Or 6m passive and a mod for the lazy people that really think they need 12m...

It's not exactly 'Lazy people' so much as just wanting to play the game and not having to dedicate extra time specifically to looting, breaking up the flow of play, and an 88% nerf wasn't really conductive to that.

 

Math for proof:

  Reveal hidden contents

And now the Math:

With the original 12 Mr (24 Md) Vacuum sphere we have:
At ground intersection: 11.78 Mr (23.56 Md)
Area of ground intersection: 435.95 Mr2
Overall Volume of sphere: 7,238.23 Mr3

And with the new 6 Mr (12 Md) Vacuum sphere it is:
At ground intersection: 5.54 Mr (11.08 Md)
Area of ground intersection: 96.47 Mr2
Overall Volume of sphere: 904.78 Mr3

So from 12 Mr Vacuum to 6 Mr Vacuum we have:
A 12 M (6+6 M), or 50% reduction of linear (razor line, widest point edge-to-edge) range.
A 12.48 M (6.24+6.24 M), or 53% reduction of linear (razor line, widest point edge-to-edge) range at ground intersection.
A 339.48 Mr2, or 78% reduction of ground-pickup volume.
A 6,333.45 Mr3, or 88% reduction of overall effective range.

 

As a reasonable alternative, you could look at a 10 Mr (20 Md) Vacuum sphere which gives us the numbers of:
At ground intersection: 9.73 Mr (19.46 Md)
Area of ground intersection: 297.42 Mr2
Overall Volume of sphere: 4,188.79 Mr3

From 12 Mr Vacuum to 10 Mr Vacuum we would get:
A 4 M (2+2 M), or 17% reduction of linear (razor line, widest point edge-to-edge) range.
A 4.1 M (2.05+2.05 M), or 18% reduction of linear (razor line, widest point edge-to-edge) range at ground intersection.
A 138.53 Mr2, or 32% reduction of ground-pickup volume.
A 3,049.44 Mr3, or 42% reduction of overall effective range.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

_{M = Meters}

_{Mr = Meter radius}

_{Md = Meter Diameter}

_{Mr2 = Meters radius Squared}

_{Mr3 = Meters radius Cubed}

 

This means that clearing a room will take 2-3 times longer.

 

1 minute ago, marelooke said:

"Don't use it" doesn't particularly solve the issue of the playstyle Vacuum promotes. Getting rid of it would have ended up forcing people to play more as a team, or miss out on drops (you know, the way it was before everyone had a Carrier), since just running around Vacuuming all the loot the hallway heroes generated wouldn't have been an option anymore. While it certainly wouldn't solve all the related issues it'd at least have been a step in the right direction. But whatever I guess...

 

As above, no, it would force you to backtrack, it would force you to move through a corridor an additojanl 2 times just for loot, or a room 3-5 times more, just for loot.

It's extra time outside of actual game play, specifically to pick stuff up.

[DarkOvion]

15 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

The drawback for having a full strength vacuum now is way too low. One mod with 9 points? Come on.

At least keep the mod away from pets please. We don't need every damn companion to encourage people to do what they did before with carrier, i.e. not move around.

Except you have to move for Vacuum to work.

It's also quality of life.

People who are prone to just standing there and doing very little aren't likely to change much anyway.

Those of use that actually play the game, it gives more options.

 

[drunkpunk222]

Now just let people to use pets with sentinels so pets not going to be forgotten and useless vs sentinels like its now or atleast give pets passive vacuum too but first option is better to see different builds.And add endgame content ( i prefer atleast same but 10x harder missions, then people will going to play in clans together and look for good players with good gear), not playing from u 19, nothing to do ingame when u max level.

[Brakhai]

19 hours ago, TheDefenestrater said:

Hasn't the community been asking for a passive vacuum attached to frames, with a mod to boost the range attached to sentinels?  

I am just grateful, that they at least fixed the awful range.

[The66Monkey]

This looks like a very good change!

Great job, now maybe it's time to look at the survivability of sentinels since carrier p is still the tankiest of th

[JohnPetrucci]

Thank you DE! i luv you!!!

[CosmicHermitCrab]

They should allow us to have both sentinels and kubrows together now, problem solved.

[Bostyan]

Yes, I agree this update is nice.

[Belluset]

Well it's a nice diversion as I await the non-cosmetic content, I suppose. Good on you, DE.

[Athanaric]

This still needs to be fixed

 

[EnderDDT]

Turning Vacuum into a mod makes an old problem even worse, namely the list mods that automatically go on your sentinels is just too crowded. After the two basic mods for the sentinel (for ability and attack), the five defensive mods required to keep the thing from being shreaded like paper mache in high level missions with any AoE (hp, shields, shield-recharge, armor, and regen), and the three common utility mods (Vaccum, Animal Instinct, and Medi-ray); this is literally all your mod slots. You can generally do without armor and maybe removing the ability for your sentinel to attack, but that only gives you one or two mod slots to work with. What's the point of having good options if you basically have to build the same way every time with every sentinel and loose out on the benefit of those options?

But unfortunately our decisions are almost completely dictated by two things: 1. It sucks to be blind on the map, have to physically stand in every nook and cranny to pick up your rewards for battle, loose out on stuff because it falls inside walls, or fall over dead because piddly bits of damage in the form of slash procs and such ignored your shields and you aren't a healer. 2. If your sentinel dies than all the bad stuff in #1 immediately starts applying to you. 

The solution of turning vacuum into a mod was the wrong one. What we need is vacuum to be inherent to warframes themselves.

The Vacuum ability is being treated as a luxury, as though it is there for people who are too lazy to want to go pick things up. The truth is that Vacuum is anti-tedium more than anything else. There is no way of telling one mod or one drop on the map from another, so you are forced to either chase down every one or possibly miss that thing you actually want among all the clutter. Vacuum is the solution for that. Simply run near the area and you don't have to stand immediately on it. There is no skill about it: there is either "stop doing what is fun to pick stuff up" or "keep doing what is fun about the game and be penalized for it". People should never be penalized for playing a game to have fun, so long as that fun doesn't ruin the fun of others or have other negative real-world consequences. People should never be looked down upon for wanting Universal Vacuum.

Simply put: Vacuum makes the game more fun and less of a chore. There is no good reason to restrict players from having it all the time. If I am wrong about that point someone can point that out to me, but I have never heard any reason why having that limited area-ability was ever a bad thing other than people wrongly thinking that wanting universal Vacuum is all about laziness. Perhaps someone else will have an argument I've never heard, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

PS: There are also other reasons why this would be a good change, or at least not a bad change, other than the anti-tedium one. For instance there are two major reasons for not using kubros/kavats, even despite their similar abilities being better than most sentinels: 1. in high level missions they die too easily with nothing you can do about it other than babysit them or be penalized by them hating you, and 2. even in low level missions they lack the vacuum, medi-ray, and (to a degree for kavats) the animal instinct mod with Vacuum being the most important of those three. Fixing this would be an extremely major step toward fixing the problem. Items that are actually important to manually pick up (syndicate tokens, statue parts, etc.) we already have a way to deal with this that would not be affected by putting Vacuum on Warframes, so there is that. This also softens the issue with wall spawning items and stuff that falls through the floor, so that issue can be more easily overlooked rather than causing complaints as the major problem that it is in a loot based game. There are others, but that should be good for now.

[defcultist]

23 hours ago, Raniu said:

 Why revert a change you made almost instantly due to majority of the playerbase being so loud about it? It is your game not theirs.

 

The customer is always right.

you some kind of super-sycophant or somethin?

[defcultist]

vacuum is an option, just as it was when it was carrier only, and it was a mod then also, just carrier only (duuh?)

if you don't like that it takes up space on your sentinel, then run around and pick up stuff 'manually'

an exilus adapter slot for sentinels would be cool, though