Bladestorm rework feedback

[Xekrin]

10 minutes ago, hazerddex said:

she completely rekts things. you just have to press more buttons

Exactly.  And due to this we are called funkillers by those who prefer the px2w method of playing.  What distresses me is DE seems to want to remove this type of gameplay yet they gave banshee a mod that turns her into precisely that.  Weird.

 

5 minutes ago, Rekkou said:

Anything will be a downgrade if you compare it to automatic targeting single button press kill switch.

Yep and we will see A LOT of people like the OP of this thread who will rant and rave about how awful it is they have to actually play the game after the rework.  Stay strong, DE, we're with you on this.

I'm sure there will be plenty of problems and fallout after the rework but I am willing to try the new way at least once.  DE isn't afraid of admitting fault and if the rework truly does make ash unplayable they will try again, of that I have no doubt.

I do wish they'd just rework his whole kit for more synergy though.  Dozens of feedback requests to make his 2nd ability more effective for example.  I know they want to keep the finisher animations, and they are pretty cool, but it shouldn't mean sacrificing a better idea just to keep it around.

[Racter]

7 hours ago, Xekrin said:

Oh I read how she is still "effective" and all that, didn't change my opinion on how you worded it.  You dislike not being able to hit 4 and watch things melt.  boo hoo.

LOL, its never too late, for anything.  Seriously, everyone should know this by now.

Well, I have, and quite often.  Play pugs more.  Or don't.  It doesn't matter really.  One person's observations does not make something fact.  In your opinion, because you failed at learning how to play the reworks, saryn and mag and valkyr et al suck.  We get it.  That's just you though.

 

You missed the point completely. The whole reason I brought up Saryn is because while they did nerf Miasma into the ground (and by extension, her previous niche), her otherwise improved kit allows her to be effective and fun. Spamming Miasma back then was effective, but not fun. This is important because they are doing the same thing with Bladestorm, minus the otherwise improved kit. Mag is a good example of this, in the time it takes to setup a Magnetize bubble (and assuming it doesn't just fade out instantly because a nullifier clipped it through a wall/floor, so it actually does something) you can just outright kill whatever you were trying to trap. Her place in the hierarchy was removed (nuking shielded enemies), and unlike Saryn she did not get a suitable replacement. I have run both of these frames past level 200 since their rework, do not presume that I do not know how to use them. Valkyr was just directly, indisputably nerfed, there was no learning to be done.

As I mentioned in the previous post, I don't specifically disagree with these changes, but there needs to be a trade off. Saryn went from boring AOE nuker to high sustained+debuff, Mag went from boring AOE nuker to nothing. There is an important distinction here, and we don't need more frames with no role, no niche. Personal bias aside, surely you find that agreeable?

7 hours ago, hazerddex said:

still play mag all the time and shes STRONGER then before. sure her 3 no longer instant kills corpus but that armor shred makes her useful in more levels then corpus i.e orokin and grneer combine that with her new magnetize she completely rekts things. you just have to press more buttons then before oh boo hoo.

Polarize does nothing. If you are fighting high enough level enemies that you need armor shred, run 4x CP and a better frame. If you are absolutely dead set on using Mag and not using CP, an augmented Crush build strips 100% of armor in a 50m radius instantly. She was extremely useful in the Void prior to her rework, that fact that you don't know that tells me you probably didn't play her properly. She is, in all cases, less effective now than she was prior to her rework.

7 hours ago, Rekkou said:

Anything will be a downgrade if you compare it to automatic targeting single button press kill switch. Things like blade storm is a mistake from the beginning, weapon with aimbot will always be better than any weapon without it, if you're just comparing the benefits its obvious what's better but doesn't mean it's right.

Again, I knew long ago that this would be a nerf, and I am not opposed to it getting nerfed. I just feel like this is one of the worst possible ways to go about it. If you just wanted to nerf Bladestorm, nerf it's range, or it's damage, or it's target cap, or add LoS requirements to additional enemies beyond the first. If you wanted to rework it, change it completely. Something similar to Flicker Strike ( https://youtu.be/MR49kNl4jZU?t=20s ) could have reused the animations, been more fun and engaging to use and still reduced the effectiveness as intended. Toggle drain, one at a time requiring manual targeting, combo multiplier like Landslide (or even just the melee multiplier), or even just centralized around Ash (as opposed to current, targeted enemy). Almost anything at all would be more fun and more effective than this.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Racter

[(PSN)xX-GunHound-Xx]

1 hour ago, KuramaKitsune said:

Why cant bladestorm work exactly the same way.

But instead of ninja auto cutscene mode where you have to watch teammates bleed to death because your stuck in a long animation for 20 seconds.

 

You just spawn your clones like normally

And YOUR ash continues on like usual...

You still can stand there shoot kill ect

Cap the base whatever.

The clones are doing their teleporting blitzkrieg you continue doing your thing.

That's true, but the thing is, people actually do enjoy the cut scenes.

The Devs also had the same idea, but they said it was too overpowered and it worked as World on Fire did with Ember. He would be able to walk around and shoot, but the clones would do the work. People also said they wanted interactivity with BS, which is kind of hard to initiate, considering how BS works.

How can you make a cut scene interactive especially with Warframe being the game it is? That alone is already asking for too much, but they also want BS to stay the way it is. It's like asking for somebody to look left and right at the same time.

 

[Auroreon]

Marking targets is not a bad idea but the with how unreliable LoS (line-of-sight) unit targeting works, it's not hard to imagine much greater difficulty and impairment.

I suggest the following:
Bladestorm targets nearby bleeding enemies. The bleeding is then consumed for its full damage in addition to the direct hit(s) from Bladestorm.

• This would allow Shuriken to mark targets and invite additional interactivity with other bleeding effects.
• Also synergizes nicely with the frame's innate passive ability.

Edited October 9, 2016 by Auroreon

[Horonelius]

Would this take into consideration multiple bleed procs on each target?

[UncaIroh]

Good idea but then you get people just using Telos Boltace proc then bladestorm for easy use. The good news there is that Ash HAS to get close to mark everyone, so it might not be so bad... (just locks in what weapons you'd use though.)

[EmptyDevil]

31 minutes ago, Auroreon said:

Marking targets is not a bad idea but the with how unreliable unit targeting works, it's not hard to imagine much greater difficulty and impairment.

I suggest the following:
Bladestorm targets nearby bleeding enemies. The bleeding is then consumed for its full damage in addition to the direct hit(s) from Bladestorm.

• This would allow Shuriken to mark targets and invite additional interactivity with other bleeding effects.
• Also synergizes nicely with the frame's innate passive ability.

Did you watch the devstream? Because it seems like you didn't, since you're comparing the marking to the standard item/enemy marking.

[Auroreon]

53 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Did you watch the devstream? Because it seems like you didn't, since you're comparing the marking to the standard item/enemy marking.

Yes. Item marking was not considered. Given how any targeted ability works currently, the selection of any individual unit is cumbersome especially at longer ranges. This, in addition to the additional part of an ability before it actually does anything.

The suggestion stands on its own as a way to select targets and executing the effect in a simple yet intuitive way.

1 hour ago, Horonelius said:

Would this take into consideration multiple bleed procs on each target?

The mechanics are speculative. The simplest way would be to consume all Bleed procs but the unit would only be selected once for Bladestorm's direct damage. 

1 hour ago, TonyWong said:

Good idea but then you get people just using Telos Boltace proc then bladestorm for easy use. The good news there is that Ash HAS to get close to mark everyone, so it might not be so bad... (just locks in what weapons you'd use though.)

Configuring your weapon and weapon choice to complement your Warframe is perfectly rational. Consider this bleed-selection mechanic': if you want to maximize the number of enemies hit by Bladestorm, an AoE weapon modded for high status and bleeding would be ideal. But perhaps bleed damage, other status effects, melee damage or a number of other factors may become incentives for other weapon choices/combos.

[Xekrin]

1 hour ago, Racter said:

Her place in the hierarchy was removed (nuking shielded enemies), and unlike Saryn she did not get a suitable replacement. I have run both of these frames past level 200 since their rework, do not presume that I do not know how to use them. Valkyr was just directly, indisputably nerfed, there was no learning to be done.

Mag went from boring AOE nuker to nothing

See I was with you on Saryn, so I did misread that part, but then you say Mag is useless.  I ran Mag in the bow only sortie the other day and came out of it with over 200 more kills than my team's Saryn, Ash, and one other.  So I just simply cannot agree with this.

Valkyr wasn't really nerfed, she was balanced.  So she can't stay in hysteria 24/7 anymore, big deal, her damage output is the same as it ever was, you just have to use it tactically.

And you said it, Saryn went from boring nuker to fun and interactive.  I can't really say how this ash rework will affect his fun factor but they are at least attempting to move away from the 'boring nuker' aspect.  There are kinks in the currently shown rework but that's probably why they showed it, to see our reaction.  Expecting it to be perfect is a dream, expecting it to maintain the precise level of what is it now is just silly.

Ash is OP and boring and dull, all three of those need to change.  They seem to want to keep the animation aspect but I kinda think eventually they will just have to give up on that dream and redo the entire ability.

 

[Xekrin]

Based on the gameplay that I saw I have only two suggestions for this current iteration of the rework.

1) Make the marking into a radius aoe, increased by mods, not huge perhaps 10m minmaxed or so.  This is a horde game and taking the time to precisely target each mark is going to be tedious, at least in theory.  This allows people to decide if they want precision or mass production.

1a) Not sure if this is true or not but the range to mark something should be quite high, as high as teleport or current bs is.  We should have to get super close to mark.  I only mention this because I read a few comments where it was assumed we'd have to get close to mark.

2) Do the double tap, equinox method.  Rather than hold to mark, just hit it and mark things until the button is pressed again.  If any other ability is used during the marking phase, it should either auto-activate or cancel, whichever is deemed best.

 

Make it 3 suggestions.  The third being add synergy to the other abilities,

if smokescreen is used, increase damage or double the marks upon first pass or some such thing.  

Shurikens auto mark enemies and stuns them briefly or something

teleport automarks all enemies within a 5 or 10 m range (or whatever) and auto activates after teleporting.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Xekrin

[Archaic_]

I honestly wouldn't mind if they reworked his Bladestorm all together (completely new ability) and gave his other abilities a more depth.

[Racter]

7 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

See I was with you on Saryn, so I did misread that part, but then you say Mag is useless.  I ran Mag in the bow only sortie the other day and came out of it with over 200 more kills than my team's Saryn, Ash, and one other.  So I just simply cannot agree with this.

Valkyr wasn't really nerfed, she was balanced.  So she can't stay in hysteria 24/7 anymore, big deal, her damage output is the same as it ever was, you just have to use it tactically.

And you said it, Saryn went from boring nuker to fun and interactive.  I can't really say how this ash rework will affect his fun factor but they are at least attempting to move away from the 'boring nuker' aspect.  There are kinks in the currently shown rework but that's probably why they showed it, to see our reaction.  Expecting it to be perfect is a dream, expecting it to maintain the precise level of what is it now is just silly.

Ash is OP and boring and dull, all three of those need to change.  They seem to want to keep the animation aspect but I kinda think eventually they will just have to give up on that dream and redo the entire ability.

I don't disagree that Valkyr needed changes, just that those weren't necessarily the right ones. Just as I don't disagree that Ash needs changes, I just don't think this is the right one.

6 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Based on the gameplay that I saw I have only two suggestions for this current iteration of the rework.

1) Make the marking into a radius aoe, increased by mods, not huge perhaps 10m minmaxed or so.  This is a horde game and taking the time to precisely target each mark is going to be tedious, at least in theory.  This allows people to decide if they want precision or mass production.

1a) Not sure if this is true or not but the range to mark something should be quite high, as high as teleport or current bs is.  We shouldn't have to get super close to mark.  I only mention this because I read a few comments where it was assumed we'd have to get close to mark.

2) Do the double tap, equinox method.  Rather than hold to mark, just hit it and mark things until the button is pressed again.  If any other ability is used during the marking phase, it should either auto-activate or cancel, whichever is deemed best.

So you want the marking to work similar to Equinox's Rest/Titania's Spellbind ability? I agree with all of this.

[GrimAtrament]

9 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

 

your not suppose to use mega thread only De can

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

This method of holding won't work with a controller. Please reconsider.

[LuckyCharm]

Reminded me of the mesa peacemaker change. I kind of wish they'd taken it further and made it like peacemaker, only you spawn clones in your vision area and can move around while doing it. Would be a nerf still, but I'd like seeing my clones jump out and stab things in my vision

 

[main_antagonist]

Woke up got my topic locked I'm not sure why 'shrug', either way it's good to see something is being done for his rework :) Ash is a tough one to rework a lot of the community is divided on what to do with him either way I'm happy as long as we get something that isn't a cinematic and actually lets me feel a bit more engaged in my game.

 

Edited October 8, 2016 by main_antagonist

[TaylorsContraction]

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

This method of holding won't work with a controller. Please reconsider.

To reiterate my original suggestion which was edited out. They should make it a two-cast ability.

First cast, you turn on a toggle during which you can mark enemies.  The toggle does not drain energy but just marks enemies. Or the toggle will drain energy for every marked enemy but if said enemey is killed (before blade storm occrus) the energy is refunded.

On second cast the player performs the execution / assassination on all marked targets. This way no button needs to be held and instead it's a simple use of the ability.

Even on PC holding down ability keys is very uncomfortable. That's one of the reason's I don't play Ivara despite really liking her kit / look / theme.

[Matt89Connor]

hi Tenno,

now that we know how it will rework the BS, looking at all rework made by the players, and comparing them with those of DE, WHAT do you think?
Personally, I have seen a lot of brilliant ideas made by players who could esssere taken into cosider, and that ideas of "mark enemies" seems very similar to the "press botton to win" except that, instead of press, there HOLD.

[Matt89Connor]

personally i don't like press botton , this will slow the fight and it's similar to "press botton to win", It will not be easy for you, but I was expecting something more
stimulating.

[CY13ERPUNK]

ill wait to see how the DEvs implement it, but atm the BS rework seems a lot like several community ideas that revolved around 'marking' tgts, which sounds good in theory

they seemed to have left out the synergy with his #1 shurikens [ie another way to 'mark' tgts] and additionally there is no mention of semi-persistent shadows to fight alongside ash 

i fully well understand the dilemma that DE got themselves into tho, with so many p42w abilities, it was inevitable that many of them would be carbon copy clones of each other, and trying to rework BS into anything that doesnt feel just like Ember's WoF does seem challenging

at the very least, the BS rework seems to be a lot more interactive for better or worse, i just hope it turns out better than the Mesa ULT rework did [imho she lost a ton of style with the loss of her gun-kata, there were many ways they could have reworked her ULT without completely destroying the aesthetic like they did] ; and Scott did mention that becuz of the new targetting method, the dmg would likely need to be scaled up to compensate

atm my biggest issue is that Ash's #1 is still going to just feel weak/redundant =/ [which is why i think its so important for it to have a huge dmg boosting synergy with his ULT]

[Matt89Connor]

14 minutes ago, CY13ERPUNK said:

ill wait to see how the DEvs implement it, but atm the BS rework seems a lot like several community ideas that revolved around 'marking' tgts, which sounds good in theory

they seemed to have left out the synergy with his #1 shurikens [ie another way to 'mark' tgts] and additionally there is no mention of semi-persistent shadows to fight alongside ash 

i fully well understand the dilemma that DE got themselves into tho, with so many p42w abilities, it was inevitable that many of them would be carbon copy clones of each other, and trying to rework BS into anything that doesnt feel just like Ember's WoF does seem challenging

at the very least, the BS rework seems to be a lot more interactive for better or worse, i just hope it turns out better than the Mesa ULT rework did [imho she lost a ton of style with the loss of her gun-kata, there were many ways they could have reworked her ULT without completely destroying the aesthetic like they did] ; and Scott did mention that becuz of the new targetting method, the dmg would likely need to be scaled up to compensate

atm my biggest issue is that Ash's #1 is still going to just feel weak/redundant =/ [which is why i think its so important for it to have a huge dmg boosting synergy with his ULT]

I hope you're right, I am pessimistic about it

[ShikaRoddy]

Y'know, I wish they remove the Puke Camera from the Blade Storm. In fact, I think that "marking" can be done a bit more like Assassin's Creed. So basically when you mark targets, shadow clones of ash appear above marked targets and finish them off ( while some of them (say 2-4) stay for some time to fight alongside you.

[Sannidor]

Press 4 and hold to mark enemies presented in the stream seems like awkward way to use such a power.

99% PC players use keyboard&mouse, even with joypad it is not the best solution.

How about:

Tap 4 to mark enemies, hold 4 to start power.

Marking a single enemy seems pretty harsh, they often gather in clusters (especially Infested) so this should function as a narrow cone and with physical obstacles obstructing marking process, not enemies covering other enemies.

 

I wonder if marks will vanish over time, if power will be affected by range, if we will have to point at an enemy to start bladestorm after marking.

I see potential for an augment mod in markings on their own - like: it takes 10 energy to mark an enemy who gets armor debuff and drops orbs on kill.

 

Overall, good to see continuation of 'no more press 4 to win' policy, not that there's many unbalanced frames left, coughEmbercough.

[LightningsVengance]

If they do nerf it I hope it at least some how stays the same in arena, other people may have saved my life as Ash with blade storm a fair amount of times...

[DiabolusUrsus]

What I don't like is that it does nothing to address the more glaring issues with the move:

1. It's a cutscene.
2. It takes away Ash's ability to do anything else for the duration of the animation.
3. "Full" invulnerability.

While I welcome appropriately applied nerfs, this is a nerf that doesn't actually fix anything and doesn't add anything new to the ability. I mean... mechanically, what is different? Blade Storm will still be used the exact same way, it suffers from the exact same drawbacks and frustrations, and the issue of animation duration may actually get worse if target cap is determined by energy available.