Energy Drain and why it's killing this game.

[StinkyPygmy]

5 hours ago, (PS4)watt4hem said:

I'd say, energy drains are okay. Energy suddenly going to 0 tho, now that's annoying

 

Looking at you disruptors

Yeah, but they are an example of decent enemy design because unlike eximis, you have to get hit and in most cases they are very easy to avoid. especially when compared to how bad their aim botting used to be. Not to mention that it isn't even a guaranteed drain on hit anymore. I was drained by a disruptor for the first time today in probably over 6 months. Sneaky bastard snuck up on me during an infested defence. couldn't see him through all the particle effects huehuheuhe.

[Zachles]

1 hour ago, Roachester said:

You know Trinity's Link ability makes you immune to all status procs, right? Disruptors will still take a little energy every time they hit you (because of their aura), but you won't lose it all at once since your magnetic proc will just pass over to whatever enemies you're Linked to.

In fact, Trinity's probably the frame that was to worry about energy drain the LEAST -- maybe except for Inaros with Rage. Maybe.

Wow, no, I didn't know that. I try to keep Link up nonstop, but that is nice to know. Incentive to make sure that I do keep it up.

That sucks for people who build for -% duration for Energy Vampire. That really damages her survivability in my opinion.

But hey, thanks for the tip. You're the real MVP.

[taiiat]

8 hours ago, low1991 said:

But what DE did was negative enforcement. Nerf'ing abilities/ damage of players while whatever OP or buffs the enemies get remains like basically for-ever. This make players to 'cheese' even more.

If DE want to reduce player cheese, all DE got to do is call for a meeting, sit down and discuses what's a positive enforcement.

so? that's completely normal. if you're afraid of backlash from zombie Players and want a quick'n'dirty way to reduce the problem, negative enforcement is what you get.
it's hard to complain about it when Players are so Overpowered in the first place. oh no, one of your rubber duckies is gone, but you have a shipping crate full of them already.

since the Community by large whines like Toddlers any minute they don't get powercrepe, they're given it constantly, and to compensate Enemies over time become cheesier and cheesier.
if Digital Extremes wants to avoid Players being walking cheese - fixing it isn't complicated, so they should just do it. don't ask the Community about it, because almost nobody will even give useful responses. just complaints about how awful it is to have to play a game they're 'playing'.

8 hours ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

at least make them drain energy on hit, it would make more sense 

that would make them identical to Enemies under the effect of a Disruptor Aura though.
:v

2 hours ago, Urlan said:

In Doom, you don't have enemies that force you not to use weapons

most MiniBoss (and probably Boss) Enemies have Armored areas that make being inaccurate or using your less Accurate Weapons much less effective than it is normally.
so Doom does have that. making some of your Weapons much less effective than they would normally be, which is a form of 'forcing you to not use'.

50 minutes ago, Zachles said:

That sucks for people who build for -% duration for Energy Vampire. That really damages her survivability in my opinion.

that's because negative Duration Trinity is useless in real Gameplay.
it's ONLY useful in Abusive Gameplay.

[Urlan]

29 minutes ago, taiiat said:

so? that's completely normal. if you're afraid of backlash from zombie Players and want a quick'n'dirty way to reduce the problem, negative enforcement is what you get.
it's hard to complain about it when Players are so Overpowered in the first place. oh no, one of your rubber duckies is gone, but you have a shipping crate full of them already.

since the Community by large whines like Toddlers any minute they don't get powercrepe, they're given it constantly, and to compensate Enemies over time become cheesier and cheesier.
if Digital Extremes wants to avoid Players being walking cheese - fixing it isn't complicated, so they should just do it. don't ask the Community about it, because almost nobody will even give useful responses. just complaints about how awful it is to have to play a game they're 'playing'.

that would make them identical to Enemies under the effect of a Disruptor Aura though.
:v

most MiniBoss (and probably Boss) Enemies have Armored areas that make being inaccurate or using your less Accurate Weapons much less effective than it is normally.
so Doom does have that. making some of your Weapons much less effective than they would normally be, which is a form of 'forcing you to not use'.

that's because negative Duration Trinity is useless in real Gameplay.
it's ONLY useful in Abusive Gameplay.

Its not the same thing to make things less useful, we have that as well with cumulative enemy resistance, enemies being weak against certain damage types, and even many of our boss types increasingly having weak or critical spots that do more damage than the zero hits everywhere else do. Its true that creating confines to standard play sparingly can create situations that help players grow or think outside the box, however; when the situation becomes a matter of this is supposed to be hard so remove abilities, one has to wonder if abilities should even be intended or retained.

[(PSN)Del-ProdigyT]

Between large team energy restores, zenruki passives, rage, and prime flow I still find myself with an abundance of energy.  You are right though that it greatly reduces the number to viable builds but to be honest every build is simple better or actually possible when energy is no longer a concern.  Not that this isn't a balance problem in warframe its a very big problem when it comes to designing fair difficult content for all of the players.  This game is so incredibly unbalanced in how it creates difficulty and for many its not difficult despite the outcrys you see on the forum.  

This game is going to need such an overhaul down the line its difficult to articulate the problems.  Personally I'm losing interesting in the act of collecting stuff to collect things,  I'm really craving a challenge lately I've solo'd sorties when possible to fill said challenge and thats actually the most fun I get out of warframe.  All of the time spent running fissure missions is good for farming prime stuff to sell but its boring.  I hope DE is actually thinking about real solutions.

Edited October 26, 2016 by (PS4)Del-ProdigyT

[Chipputer]

55 minutes ago, Urlan said:

when the situation becomes a matter of this is supposed to be hard so remove abilities, one has to wonder if abilities should even be intended or retained.

They never force you to have 0 energy, though. Modding is nearly always able to work around the energy restrictions and allow you to use your abilities. There have been very few situations where enemies were outright completely immune to all abilities. Don't pretend like it's the norm. It's not.

1 hour ago, taiiat said:

Doom does have that. making some of your Weapons much less effective than they would normally be, which is a form of 'forcing you to not use'.

I guess it depends on which Doom you play? All I know is I've never experienced this in the first and second one. Those games it's pretty much just, "use plasma here, use shotgun here, use rockets here (but you can still use shotgun or plasma), use chaingun against the stupid Lost Souls." Specific weapons were always just... better than other ones.

[taiiat]

8 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I guess it depends on which Doom you play?

sure. the Internet has poor memory so if someone says 'Doom', i assume 2016.
when people are vague i can only assume what has the most public attention.

[RistN]

Actually enemy lvl,armor and one shots don't mean anything in this game.There are powerful crowd control frames that put everything to dead stop,dmg buffers and armor removers.Only useful way to counter this is energy drain.

But still there are energy restores that are cheap way to get energy quick.What serious player don't have around 100 of them equipped in his gear...

I do acknowledge energy drain is pain in ...

[Skaleek]

I think the one thing that really gets me is that a -1 energy/second drain cancels out my +4 energy/second regen and still drains my energy.

[ObviousLee]

Zen

U

Rik

[RealPandemonium]

Energy drain aura shouldn't stack.  That's all.  

On the other hand, get good and stop relying on powers to survive and/or TELL DE THAT LEVEL 70+ ENEMIES JUST DON'T WORK IN DAMAGE 2.0. So many threads addressing the symptoms and not the cause.  

Zen

U

Rik

Sad truth.  Bandaids for everyone!

Edited October 26, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Urlan]

4 hours ago, Chipputer said:

They never force you to have 0 energy, though. Modding is nearly always able to work around the energy restrictions and allow you to use your abilities. There have been very few situations where enemies were outright completely immune to all abilities. Don't pretend like it's the norm. It's not.

I guess it depends on which Doom you play? All I know is I've never experienced this in the first and second one. Those games it's pretty much just, "use plasma here, use shotgun here, use rockets here (but you can still use shotgun or plasma), use chaingun against the stupid Lost Souls." Specific weapons were always just... better than other ones.

Perhaps, it could be that I fight Infested much too often, as in such situations, no matter your modding you will not have energy after a while outside of bits and spurts. This could actually work into the game universe if we find that infested truly metabolize void energy - this could be an in setting mutation that could be designed around or countered in universe. That said, its all too common in events, or challenging aimed content to feature mechanics that are essentially meta versus in universe. The Corpus could believably counter our void energy advantage, such a discovery and implementation would be akin to a Balor Fomorian for the Grineer. Take away void power and what are the Tenno - child soldiers. Capable sure, but a threat to solar system spanning empires? I think not.

I think Taliat's point was that used effectively challenging the player's expectations and manner of playing, creates new experiences, and ways of playing. This is at least partially true. Look at games like Sonic the Hedgehog putting the player in an environment that took away the character's advantages while also putting him on a time limit with limited air. This charged the player with having to carefully get through the water sections while managing the limited resource of air. In settings like the Index, our endurance events, tac alerts, nightmare LoR, and such in addition to having the natural mod system constraints, modifiers further remove the main attribute of what makes warframe using Tenno so dangerous - their void powers. Liken this to speed with Sonic (though perhaps Cryogenic and always on slow effects may draw a more immediate parallel); when Sonic is slowed it is used sparingly as should be the case with a super speed powered main character. Doing otherwise undermines the credibility of the character being a threat. Energy restrictions have a place in Warframe but must be used sparingly or they lose meaning as well as belittling the value of the characters that use such a resource.

[Medereyes]

17 hours ago, VampirePirate said:

I disagree.  If you don't like that there is energy drain in the game, I can understand that.   However, this game is about using everything you have against incredible odds.  I'm not saying it's like that in all cases, but this game has many facets to its gameplay.  It's never just one thing.  I can't imagine why any gamer would meet the challenge of a video game by beating it's devs over the head every time something gets difficult.  Yes there are times when games have things wrong with them that need fixing, but i don't think this is one of them.  If you know the history of complaints concerning this game, one of the most popular ones is 'ability spam'.  When DE provides challenges against that, people complain that they can't spam the abilities when they want to.  I don't get it.

Anyway, in this case you presented, why do i get the impression that you think the only way to play this game is to have unlimited energy and be able to use your warframe powers without hindrance?  I mean, assuming you have a primary, secondary, and melee, including the ability to do unearthly acrobatics and traverse maps with frightening speed, why would energy drain be such problem?  To me it's like the same thing as with the nullifiers.  All you have to do is either shoot the bubbles or enter the bubbles and kill the man inside.  Yes, they can be difficult to handle sometimes, but not impossible.

What is a video game that is so easy that you win every time?   People will say things like "artificial difficulty" or "not challenging enemies, just annoying".  I mean come on now.  Meet the challenge and learn to win with skill, not by harassing the devs on a forum.  You can't always win.  That's the point of a game.

You sir deserve an upvote.

DE intentionally makes content that is designed to be played without powers. However instead of simply blocking your powers 100% of the time, they either drain it or block it for short moments. This is how DE cleverly gets players to dump their stash pile of energy restores (polymer bundles). I always chuckle when I hear someone in alliance wanting to do a polymer run cause they are out again. It's the system working to purge resources.

[LuckyCharm]

From where I see.. they put energy drain in to compensate for the INSANE amount of energy we get from ev, pads, zenurik, arcane energise... If you talk about removing features.. remove these 4 things and then energy is only via energy siphon aura and orbs. Which is how it should be anyway, and was in the beginning days of warframe. 

Being able to spam endlessly isn't "play how you want" at all.. its "cheese all content quickly." Why else do you think Ash Bladestorm is such a priority change for them right now? Because with endless amounts of energy people are just spamming it to stay invincible with no consequence. Limit the energy and you can't do that and it actually makes people PLAY THE GAME, rather than press 4 to win

[RealPandemonium]

10 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

From where I see.. they put energy drain in to compensate for the INSANE amount of energy we get from ev, pads, zenurik, arcane energise...

Honestly it probably wasn't even that thought-out.  It just ended up this way because DE has no vision for this game's design anymore and just throws stuff into the game without really understanding what actually goes on in it day-to-day.  

[LuckyCharm]

1 minute ago, RealPandemonium said:

Honestly it probably wasn't even that thought-out.  It just ended up this way because DE has no vision for this game's design anymore and just throws stuff into the game without really understanding what actually goes on in it day-to-day.  

Maybe, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say it was more because every time they try to do something about it there's always someone yelling NERF so they shied away from it, opting for a bandaid fix (like the introduction of nullifiers and then the buff to them) . Just take a look at the mag rework. Shes better all around and works more thematically, but since people can't press polarise to win anymore there were pages and pages of people crying about how she has no place. Use magnetise people. It would be nice to see their old vision come back though, of a shooter with warframe powers to supplement the gunplay rather than completely out-do it

[(XBOX)Oussii]

20 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

As you can see I could craft almost 9k, but that's alot of clicking.

Do as i do, after every mission, i go build one.

that way you won't feel the clicking

[Silvus-Sol]

Energy drain is tolerable when it is used sparingly, but it is waaaaaay to common right now. If DE wants us to use abilities less and pigeon-hole us into efficiency builds there is a much better solution.

Energy Cap. Putting a hard cap of like 100 Energy or less.

It limits the player's ability to spam but still allows you to actually use your abilities. I'd rather deal with 75 energy max than 0 energy due to drains coming from multiple sources.

[SoanoS]

Reminds me of that one time I was trying to do a stealthy Eris Hive mission with my Ivara. I had Infested Energy Leech Eximuses coming at me literally every 3 seconds and my energy was constantly draining at such a rate stealth was no longer an option. I ended up having to pretty much slide, bullet jump and hack my way trough with my melee weapon because I literally had no time to reload between those charger eximuses. At one point it did seem 2 out of 3 enemies were Energy Leech Eximuses.

So, yeah, if you guys could tone down the spawn rate of the eximuses or at least cap the energy drain so that it is possible to get them before you are completely out. Or make them drop a large energy orb on death to give the player a chance to even try to use abilities. Because sometimes fighting Infested is almost as "fun" as fighting Corpus and their Nullifiers. :P

Edited October 27, 2016 by SoanoS

[Update]

On ‎26‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:52 AM, SolarisVentara said:

Even in index theres still the energy orbs that spawn around -_- and your energy only SLOWLY drops when you're holding points. a proper duration frame with a skill that uses time rather than instead of constant self energy cost, can use these effectively. ex. a chroma with a duration/power build, can gather up orbs first, activate both their 2 and 3, and then just go to town.

I mean you can't stop pods... And Man... With 10x Point... The Energy drop is way 2 fast.

[NinjaCzech121]

is just perfect no problems no anything now is preatty much hated but hey we can say energy isn't problem bigger problem is (i think)

is that  and  = isn't good think like arbiters one time spawned lv 50 corupted soldiers and gues what five hit's and im dead this is my problem with  it's sometime play as support  of the (if you know what i mean) is preatty hard and it's preatty bad that syndicates are almost like  and also they come same as any other syndicate so theres no way to know if there is ororso im not ready well that's all

 

 

sorry for my grammar im from Czech Republic and english isn't my primary language

 

Edited October 27, 2016 by NinjaCzech121

[BlackCoMerc]

On 10/26/2016 at 5:17 AM, SeaUrchins said:

It is one of those threads, where the author makes valid points about game mechanics and people think he has a problem with a certain mission condition instead and give him advice he has not actually asked for.

Yes, without abilities you are dead meat because they are essentially what stands between you and your oneshot death on high levels. You can't dodge all the hits, you can't block them without taking damage, you can't efficiently CC enemies who can oneshot you with status guns and there is no place to hide and shoot enemies from cover.

Energy drain is a cheap way to pseudo difficulty increase as you can still carry 200 restores or have an EV trin. If it was removed entirely from the game, I would hardly notice it.

Not to mention, energy drain means Mesa and Nezha basically CANNOT be played on high levels. So nice, having two poorly designed frames like that...

[hukurokuju5]

SURPRISE SURPRISE

ENERGY DRAIN NIGHTMARE MISSIONS 

[RealPandemonium]

41 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

SURPRISE SURPRISE

ENERGY DRAIN NIGHTMARE MISSIONS 

Those have been there since forever, though.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

+1

WF is fun because of 2 things: the skills and the speed.  They should be making changes that focus on improving those two things, not taking them away.