The Second Stream Podcast: Endless Relics, Fortress Assault, Enemy Armor, & More

[Operative_Shift]

23 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

When someone is publicly putting their opinions out there, particularly in a small group discussion, and you feel that they may or may not be disruptive to the proceedings, the quickest way to get that across is to tell them, directly.

See while you think it may be disrupting to the proceedings, I view it as challenging someones viewpoint. Like I had stated, if someone makes a less than informed statement I feel that it is completely fair to tell them, directly. Lots of people in the community tend to latch on to falsehoods, so without someone with the experience, exposure, or enough common sense to show them the possible faults in their thought processes, that falsehood is accepted without question. 

23 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Rob can be a little overbearing, but that's who he is. He comes in hard, he comes in fast, and he gets what he wants to say out whether you like it or not.

Lol did you slip in an innuendo in there? ;P

However yes, admittedly when I spot weak arguments I do tend to become impassioned, because frankly I believe our community deserves to be better informed and act more logically than they have in the most recent months. And frankly if that's an issue then I'd beg to ask why? As I had previously put it.. if an argument is strong, its very hard to poke holes into.. so either people aren't fond of me common sensing out, issues that they're emotionally tied to (which should lead them to ask, WHY they are so attached to it, when it can easily be sorted out), or they just don't like me personally.. which is totally fine ;)

I'm not the kind of person who cops out, and follows mob mentality or someone who plays sesame street with peoples feelings. It may not make me many friends, but what you don't need is someone who will cave to the will of the doom and gloom echo chamber that can be the forums. 

Edited November 1, 2016 by Operative_Shift

[Chipputer]

6 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

if that's an issue then I'd beg to ask why?

It's not so much that it's an issue, as a whole. Funnily enough, that's why I simply adore your youtube content. Yes, I said adore. I have frequently been someone who points toward your video about player burnout and I was right there with you on the Saryn rework, to the point that I made it my mission to take Saryn into public matches to prove that people really were wrong about how she played.

It's more the context, I guess I would say? It fits for an editorial and it fits on the forums, but in a small group discussion it can come across as a bit hostile and, as I said, overbearing. Again, please understand I'm not saying this as a, "Rob you are the worst person in the world god why are you like this I hate everything about you," but more as a, "Rob I love your content and I love how you present yourself but I feel like it may come off a bit too strong in these small group discussions to the point of it being disruptive."

I think a good solution would be to find someone else who has just as strong of a presence as you do to come in there and sit with the group as well. I, in no way, think they should simply remove you from the proceedings or anything of the sort. I just think it's a bit imbalanced and one person ends up being the clear lead in the discussion and it just feels... stagnant.

10 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

Lol did you slip in an innuendo in there? ;P

It was unintentional, but I left it when I realized how it sounded. Figured you'd appreciate it. :P

[Bazools]

I have to say that this was one of best Podcasts done til now but i do believe that issue of Armour and overaul enemy scalling needs to become DE's first priority in terms of game balancing, I do realize that this rework will be a major undertaking for the devs since it'll its a system that requires that everything (enemies, weapons, warframes, etc) will need to be reworked or tweaked but it is atm a problem that affects gameplay and needs to be addressed asap. It's time to take action and solve this major flaw in the game.

Keep up the good work people and Happy Halloween.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Bazools

[Operative_Shift]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Funnily enough, that's why I simply adore your youtube content. Yes, I said adore.

I can tell trust me ;D (no sarcasm)

3 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I just think it's a bit imbalanced and one person ends up being the clear lead in the discussion and it just feels... stagnant.

Clear lead? Definitely not how I feel when sitting on the panel, especially when the positions I present tend to be a odds with the other two guests.. however it is slightly flattering. 

5 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

It was unintentional, but I left it when I realized how it sounded. Figured you'd appreciate it. :P

Lol how can one not? Honestly though, that's how most of mine tend to come out, then its all just about changing the inflection for accentuation (which apparently is a real word!! kinda shocked)

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, Operative_Shift said:

Clear lead? Definitely not how I feel when sitting on the panel, especially when the positions I present tend to be a odds with the other two guests.. however it is slightly flattering. 

Yeah I guess when you're in the fire you're going to feel the burn.

Instead of digressing and further padding this topic out with this, I'll just say that I've aired my concern and I appreciate that you leveled with me and stood your ground. Looking forward to your next video and hope you'll have a good rest of your day.

[Operative_Shift]

2 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I appreciate that you leveled with me and stood your ground.

But of course! A solid argument always floats ;D I appreciate the feedback, and you take care of yourself as well! Hopefully you'll continue to enjoy future episodes of the podcast!

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

All I'll say is this: provided they respect opposing arguments, experienced gamers don't need a working model to critique the pros and cons of a hypothetical model. It's wrong to stop people from expressing their full argument when they are willing to be civil and respectful. Especially when collaborative critique is the purpose of the discussion.

[Roboplus]

1) No. Endless missions are boring. Maybe if every 5 minutes something happened to spice things up. Otherwise I'll fall asleep. Not having to do endless missions was the best thing the Void changes provided.

2) 15-20 minutes at a methodical pace; faster if you rush it (but with a greater risk).

3) I really liked The Archwing, Vor's Prize, and Sands of Inaros. I liked Second Dream, but I don't know that I'd replay it.

4) Most of my builds don't use it, but my main (Nyx) does. With Zenurik's passive, she has little use for the dash polarity alternatives.

5) As with all things, it depends on the rate of desired reward. At the current rates, even being able to spam the mission indefinitely is awful because the rarest mods have such an abysmal drop rate. With an 8 hour lockout, the rare drop rate would have to be increased substantially. 5% for a Rare, 3% at a minimum.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Roboplus
Clarification and Addendum

[Syln]

about the endless mission, i'd rather get a chance to reroll my radiant relic loot with a greater chance to get what i want the further i go into the said mission. (don't know if it's understandable but heh i tried !)

[(PSN)VariantX7]

1 hour ago, Roboplus said:

1) No. Endless missions are boring. Maybe if every 5 minutes something happened to spice things up. Otherwise I'll fall asleep. Not having to do endless missions was the best thing the Void changes provided.

2) 15-20 minutes at a methodical pace; faster if you rush it (but with a greater risk).

3) I really liked The Archwing, Vor's Prize, and Sands of Inaros. I liked Second Dream, but I don't know that I'd replay it.

4) Most of my builds don't use it, but my main (Nyx) does. With Zenurik's passive, she has little use for the dash polarity alternatives.

5) As with all things, it depends on the rate of desired reward. At the current rates, even being able to spam the mission indefinitely is awful because the rarest mods have such an abysmal drop rate. With an 8 hour lockout, the rare drop rate would have to be increased substantially. 5% for a Rare, 3% at a minimum.

I wish I could give you 100+ upvotes for number 1 on that list alone. I used to play till 60-70 minutes in endless, but I quit due to boredom and limited myself to 20-40 minutes. The rewards didn't mean squat to me if i was bored out of my mind the entire time. Excavation sort of has that tension to stave off boredom because of the fragility of the extractors and the need to keep them fed or increase the risk of losing it. If there was some type of event that happened every 5-10 minutes in survival and defense like dropping in some of the various named mobs as mini bosses, I would keep playing longer just out of curiosity. Slowly ratcheting up damage and health/armor numbers until they spike out of control needs to change at some point.   

[ADRENALYN451]

you know guys, ive been reading all these comments and no one talked about the fun of doing an endless mission in warframe. It seems to me like everyone is tryng to fix something but, i dont think there is much that is broken with the functionality of endless missions, and what it means to go for a long run.

Modding i think is the most fun part in the game. Just thinking about builds, testing builds and inventing more builds and more builds. But ofc you sure can theorycraft all you want but the one question will always be there: can you pull it off now? and that is the beauty of modding for endless missions its, trying to figure how YOU can make yourself as strong as possible, and then actually doing it!

The Devs are smart, They literally gave us ALL the tools we need, to fight ANY faction, at an optimum level. The only condition, is that we use Teamwork first! (with a proper aura setup)

THE REST IS ALL UP TO YOU! 

doesnt matter which frame your playing, doesnt matter what mission, It doesnt even matter what specific build you have, all that matter is if the auras are right, then: all the frames become good. therefore as long as you, the player, understand how to give the best of yourself; you can rock for a really long time. And doing it is FUN!!!!

there is something really special in doing a 60 minute survival with good friends when everyone is using their favourite frames and express themselves with their loadouts and still can act as a functional and efficient killing squad because of the right aura set-up.There are alot of mistakes and good moments that can happen and its very intense. 

But ultimately this is what warframe is about. In my eyes, its a huge quest for us trying to get stronger and stronger in this game; by being able to execute many builds and a lot of different styles and using all the frames, trading builds with poeple and asking for advice with theorycrafting of a warframe build. Its this essence of thinking about BUILDS and trying to make yourself as sharp as possible and executing it for a long while. Can you survive. 

Endless missions are the real gameplay in warframe. Everything else is just for show because, what is good all the forma and the theorycraft and accessories if your never going to actually make use of it. How can you even make sure that all your logical deductions are not wrong about your own BUILD? I Admit that this perspective of favouring endless missions is counter intuitive to the current farming systems for everything, but the point is you dont do endless missions for the rewards, you do them for the fun of the kill. And all of this relates to mods and Builds that you make for yourself! its like a receipe game, mixed in with a shooter game, with spellcasting and STANCE USAGE!!! (omg de u r cray).

As for auras, being the only component of a build right now that matters for not just you but for the rest of the team, its really important to pick wisely for the sake of your whole team. Therefore when you build your frame, you also have to think about your team a little (currently 1/10 mods for frames) when you are doing all of your thinking about builds. its really important to understand how auras work and which would be ideal for w/e faction you are going to battle. for anything over 40 minutes. the aura system right now is fine, they dont need to change. it forces the 4 players to be agreeing with each other for maximum potential which is an ideal case for a pve game. 

and then, poeple always ask me WHY 60 minutes? because its AWESOME, u really should just do it man. improoving your warframes and your weapons until the point where you can do endless missions for 60+ mins is really satisfying. Warframe is a really fun game to play when you past the point that enemies are level 100 or more, its takes skill, dedication, good builds good weapons, a.k.a. all what you have to be at the best it can be. 

I wish i could spark the whole community of players to the thrill of modding and being successful in a high level game. but Ultimately, that is something players can only find for themselves. 

dont let endless die de_ , much love

[7grims]

No multiple prime rewards in a endless mission, its not in sync with the endless mission mode ideology.

No amount of traces, relics, or anything, can be as worth as primes, because primes are the objective of prime farming.

Nowadays we play more grind pre-missions, then the fissure missions themselves.

Edited November 2, 2016 by 7grims

[Geraaltix]

1. Are you interested in playing longer endless Fissure missions when they'll allow additional Relic unlocks and Trace?

I voted other. I might be interested in playing further rounds into one mission IF it actually differs from leaving after one round and repeating the mission. If the mechanics of it stay the same, I.E. random void trace amount that doesn't go up with rounds, same reward odds, etc.... then there is no point to continuing the mission. If you can get MORE traces the further you go, that's a small plus, but it may not be enough for me to decide to stay in a mission rather than leave after the first reward and repeat the mission, just to keep the enemies at the same level. There's no point to continuing if the rewards don't get better.

In the past, people stayed because they only used one key. That was the incentive for keeping to the mission. Since that can't be done with relics, there needs to be other incentives to staying in the mission with scaling enemies. And we all know the issues with scaling enemies.

[Geraaltix]

19 hours ago, ADRENALYN451 said:

snip

Please understand that every player has different opinions and different tastes. If you enjoy endless missions how they are, great. That's a good thing. But no amount of paragraphs is going to talk those of us that think they're tedious and boring into suddenly thinking they're the bees knees. It's just not going to happen, man. I personally hate dragging a mission on an hour or more. I don't want to be in any mission that long. I have other things to do. I have to take a piss sometimes. Sitting down to a mission and knowing I have to continually play this mission for a full hour or more, without looking away, without any distractions... that's a whole lot of NOPE for me. So no, not everyone wants that and you can't expect them to.

[Mak_Gohae]

1- I'll stay until it gets annoying. Dont care about maximizing blah-blah-blah.Annoying meaning being unable to do anything against the enemy in a moderate fashion or teammates not being prepare and just dying left and right.

2-  20+ have it be an actual raid!

3- most of them cause why not?

4- almost never, i stick to Rejuv 95% of the time, 4.5% with energy syphon and the last .5% i use whatever. Min/maxers are what kills a game. At ridiculously levels you have to give up or come up with cheese tactics because you are not supposed to be winning easily. Complaining that the higher you go the less leeway you have is  strange because that's kinda what should happen as a norm.

5- Fine. Dont see a reason to change it.

 

Bonus- You people think Warframe is unique because there are quest and cinematics? Come on, that is the silliest thing i've heard coming from Warframe people in a long time. You need to play some games if you think Warframe is the only game that does this.

[(PSN)Arinol]

Endless mission thoughts,

Why should I do Endless?

The original reason was to get  multiple items from the same resource. 1 Key gave multiple options for items.
Fix option. 1 relic gives multiple rolls on the same relic with out the pause.

This would give the option to allow chance to clear one relic if lucky after 6 rotations you could have every item on the relic you started with.

 

 

[Chaosdreamer]

1- It actually depends on what the reward is it , but mainly No , what the point? 

2-depends if it fun and have good rewards 15-20 min , if ain't fun and bad reward 5-10 min

3- dunno nothing planned why this feature take so long time to be ingame anyway

4- It's either this or energy one so alot

5- 8 Hour is to long to find " a good " nightmare mission also make them like alert, put them in panel so it look like interesing to go , for me a good timing would be 3 Hour max (It's a bit hard to say that when They was avalable anytime...)

[wtrmlnjuc]

1. If longer missions = more rewards and better (albeit future) chance at rewards, I'll do it. Higher risk, higher reward (i.e., longer missions have n_x = 10+5x void traces (where n is the total number of void traces and x is the number of rounds played)) will make endless worth it. Would also test your gear out better. One relic per 5 minutes would be too fast, unless relic acquisition gets more common, or RNG can be affected.

2. A longer mission type would be good as long as the gameplay is interesting and variable, and the rewards are worth it.

3. Second Dream, followed by frame quests, followed by earlier story missions.

4. I don't use CP at all unless requested. I think giving weapons more variety and flavour will help spread out the need for CP. Not through mods, those feel like bandaids.

5. Too long. Nightmare mods can't be farmed and moving to shorter intervals increases node variety.

Edited November 3, 2016 by wtrmlnjuc

[Xenogelion]

My concerns is that even though we we'll have a reason to do Endless Void Missions again we won't have a way to sustain our relic reserves. Obtaining the relic you want is currently extremely time consuming as it's in a shared drop table of at least 5 other relics and often you get 1 maybe 2 shots at that table in a 20 minutes/wave mission.

If we go to do a 20 minute endless void mission I'd want to be able to replace the relics I spend with comparative ease to the old system. Maybe change it so that when you buy a relic pack from a syndicate it is a relic pack of a specific Era and all the relics you get out of it are from that Era. Additionally rotate the packs daily so that each day they'll have a different pack in case people only have 2 syndicates. That way when you open a pack you have a much higher chance of getting the relic you want and you can dump all your syndicate rep on multiple attempts quickly.

[ranks21]

I've actually listened to the podcast and what was discussed about the relic/traces debacle.. plain and simple its just a hinderance to the flow of the mission. I can see this put in the defensive type missions> excav, defense, interception that already have a pause mechanic per  completed round/ 5 waves and has a countdown timer.. adding this to survival is just outright silly.

the game is in a mess as of the past 2 years literally, some changes were good, but overall the bad out weighs the good. you can't keep taking away the good and fun and keep adding the bad boring and frustration in its place...

go back to the original vision that you had, that made the game stood out from  all other F2p's, not only have you dropped the ball, you've totally lost it.

[Nazzami]

Point out about repeatable cinematic quests check The Secret World quests or Guild wars 2 Living Story

[homiedudemanguy]

Seeing Corrosive Projection at top with "almost always on" is a problem for it hinders diversity

It doesn't mean to nerf CP, just make other auras more viable or work on other auras that have equivalent exchange of some sort.

[yannickegges]

1: i'd go longer for a bit of challenge, but ther mist be a bit more reward, for example: when re-using a relic in an endless mossion you get higher level enemies, but also higher chance for uncommon/rare drops

 

[Operative_Shift]

3 hours ago, homiedudemanguy said:

 

Seeing Corrosive Projection at top with "almost always on" is a problem for it hinders diversity

 

That might be slightly miss-representative of the actual numbers (at the point of this posting).. if you combine the top three options, (almost always/always, frequently, often) you get a total of 335 votes. If you add the bottom three (sometimes, rarely, never/almost never) you get a total of 300 votes. 

The split is actually approximately 53% for more often used, and a little over 47% for less than sometimes used.. If you look at the almost always crowd, they only represent 22% of the entire graph, meaning that 88% don't consider it a mandatory mod.. so clearly there are a few very vocal people in the community that make the issue seem more dire than it actually is. 

[homiedudemanguy]

36 minutes ago, Operative_Shift said:

That might be slightly miss-representative of the actual numbers (at the point of this posting).. if you combine the top three options, (almost always/always, frequently, often) you get a total of 335 votes. If you add the bottom three (sometimes, rarely, never/almost never) you get a total of 300 votes. 

The split is actually approximately 53% for more often used, and a little over 47% for less than sometimes used.. If you look at the almost always crowd, they only represent 22% of the entire graph, meaning that 88% don't consider it a mandatory mod.. so clearly there are a few very vocal people in the community that make the issue seem more dire than it actually is. 

 

while the numbers are true on that note, there is still an apparent voting disparity on who is accounted for in these votes. examples of what i mean are what are the players experience throughout the game such as what mission types they do, how long has the player been around in warframe, what is their understanding of CP (do they know it's good or did some other player just convince them to use it all the time), whether they go alone or with friends playing when upfront in a situation of armored based targets and what are the goals, and the list goes on. as you mentioned at the end, there always will be a vocal minority with buzzwords and such, however the matter of the fact is that have a representative of a total of 335 votes over the millions of players that play warframe isn't really a great pool and suffers from a low sample to represent a population that could likely not even know that there is even a poll to begin with.

 

EDIT: forgot to mention, i do realize that this poll was recent/fresh so i'll see how the numbers go throughout the passing time until it becomes relatively stable. 

Edited November 3, 2016 by homiedudemanguy
forgot to mention