One of the Most Complex Warframes is a Starter Frame

[Slaviar]

I think Ember, Excalibur and Oberon would be perfect line up. Ember is caster frame, Excalibur is posterboy and Oberon has support skills

[Insizer]

Mag is complex to use?

[Katinka]

I don't think Mag has changed that much and can still be used fine in starter content by a new player.  The intricacies of combining powers aren't something you need to worry about on early planets but will be something interesting to explore later.  On Earth, Venus, Mercury and probably Mars she'll do fine without caring about shards or damage bonus from using Pull and/or Crush on Magnetized targets.  Duration affecting the timespan of an expanding ability isn't that complex an idea either and I'm pretty sure the arsenal lists it's expansion time and will show how it is affected by mods.  A little experimentation and people should be able to see and figure out how there new mods affect her powers as they install them when they find them.  If the player is allowed to learn the game with her naturally then it should be a problem.  The only time I'd see it being a problem is if a friend says "This is how you play Mag, use these mods." without explaining why.

[Velothed]

Absolutely in favor of mag not being a starter frame.

But why wouldn't Nova be a good starter?

She is very powerfull, true, but you need a lot of mods to get her there. For a starting player, Nova wouldn't be more op than Excal.

Nyx could be another option, especially since she once was supposed to be fem Excal^^

She would make a good female mascot next to Excal.

Simple elegent design.

[Brasten]

I've suggested before that Ash would a better starting Warframe. Back when Loki was being swapped out, I suggested Ash as the replacement. Ash allows for stealth play, but not exclusively so. He follows the same theme, but not exclusively so.

However I don't agree that Mag is the most complex starter to play. At least not compared to the current starters of Excal and Volt.

Excalibur's complexity ramps up as you being to understand how to build for his  Exalted Blade and the Finishers he can do off the various Blinds. You can just look over the Volt rework thread for people who still have a hard time to understanding how to use his full kit, which is complex in its utility. Mags "complexity" is the Shard/Orb drops from Polarize and Pull kills. It's a "skill synergy" complexity compared to the Meta knowledge of Excal, or Utility Belt of Volt.

Played simply all 3 work just fine. But as player grows in understanding of the game and their frame, they ramp up to meet harder challenges.

[----Dante----]

dunno if you can have simplier frame than that

i was only pressing 1 button and well this happens

this is mag with 2 mods vitality and flow.

 

 

 

[hukurokuju5]

OR DE COULD JUST CLARIFY DESCRIPTIONS FOR ONCE 

[Sziklamester]

I like the current rooster maybe a plus female frame to increase the choice would be nice but I don't feel this will change anything because all frames need to be mastered if you want to use the full potential. Personally I would like to add pre frames as starters which can be updated or replaced later the actual frames.

[MagPrime]

51 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

OR DE COULD JUST CLARIFY DESCRIPTIONS FOR ONCE 

Agreed.

Mag is fine as a starter.  Her abilities only get moderately complicated when you start tailoring to specific abilities.

 

[LuckyCharm]

I vote replacing her with Valkyr. Because valkyr is bae and every newbie i've ever helped has been all "Can you help me farm valkyr?"

 

[RealPandemonium]

Lol maybe we should just make Trinity/Nova/Rhino starters so that newbies can get their godmode right away and never have to worry about gameplay ever.  

Edited November 12, 2016 by RealPandemonium

[Xzorn]

It's not that Mag is complicated. It's that there's no clear definition to the player what's going on when you use her abilities. She does happen to be very mod heavy also which also makes her a poor starter frame.

I think Oberon would be an ideal choice for a starter frame. That way  you have a standard Fighter / Caster / Healer  setup.

Yea I know Volt is versatile and Oberon can nuke but you have most play styles and concepts covered with those three.

Given the expanded roster they could go with 5 frames too. Bring back Loki as the Rogue and one other.

[RealPandemonium]

50 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

It's not that Mag is complicated. It's that there's no clear definition to the player what's going on when you use her abilities.

Can you give some examples of this?

[Doom_Bunny]

Ember would make the game too easy from the start due to problems with wof (even without the mods).

Trinity mostly has healing which in regular game-play is hardly needed even for a newbie. She would be a very boring as a starter frame.

Nova is a glass canon as such is typically reserved for later game-play. So that players can learn before attempting to survive as her.

Nyx (like Trinity) is mainly support with one attack ability and a short range fourth ability. Although she probably would be more fun then Trinity because she can at least affect the enemies.

Valkyr has an assortment of problems.

Finally, we can't put another male frame in there as then it would just be three male frames again.

Mag is only about as complex as Volt is. Hell, her wiki-page for polarize is smaller then nearly all of the pages for Volt's abilities besides shock. Her polarize ability is easy to understand that you don't need to know how messed up the armour scaling is to use the ability. The only thing that is lacking is description which has been a problem with the game for a while. Most frames that get reworked don't get the necessary description in-game to tell the player how it works.

If you want something else I would suggest adding another frame instead of removing Mag. That way you only add to the choices a new player has, it would also make it two males and two females.

Edited November 12, 2016 by Postal_pat

[LordOfScrugging]

I think nyx and banshee should be fem starters.

[Xzorn]

19 minutes ago, RealPandemonium said:

Can you give some examples of this?

Polarize, something expands, you see some numbers when it hits enemies but have no idea what else happened.

Magnetize, you see a bubble, some numbers happen, but no clear effect other than enemies being trapped in it.

The synergy effects from these abilities aren't entirely clear in terms of graphics either.

Obviously some of the abilities UI gives you an idea of what's going on and the wiki gives you more specific numbers but a frame where the effects are more clear would be ideal for a new player. Excalibur Slashes, Blinds, Throw Javs and has a super weapon. It's very clear what his abilities are doing even if you don't know the details and you can play decently without ever looking at the abilities UI.

[Gwaiyn]

my vote for a second female starter frame goes to either nyx or trinity, they're both pretty simple to control in my opinion, and fill the role of a support frame for people who love playing a support-ey kind of character

[Xzorn]

Guys, Nyx is not a good starter frame at all....

Nyx isn't hard to play but she requires experience with enemy AI and how they act under certain effects. That's obviously not something a new player will have.

You can make her newbie friendly with Assimilate but she's not a forgiving frame to play otherwise. A new player will prolly just keep getting shot, think her CC sucks and play something else.

[Krion112]

Let me impart to you some information: all of the Starters are Jack of All Trades oriented frames. Excalibur is Offense, Volt is Defense, and Mag is Support. All three of these Warframes fulfill all three variations of their role.

Support is one of the hardest roles to master, therefore it makes perfect sense that the jack-of-all-trades Support is a difficult Warframe to use. That doesn't mean it can't be a starter. In fact, I'd argue the only starter that is easy to use is Excalibur, but only because he automatically appeals to the majority of players by being offense oriented.

Therefore, I disagree. Mag as a Starter is just fine. As someone else suggested, we could include another female Warframe to offset this complexity. My argument is Nyx, because she's the jack-of-all-trades of the fourth role, which is Control. This means she would set players up for all the rest of the Control Warframes, and I believe that, while it will be difficult to deal with Grineer early on, she will have the edge on the Corpus and Infested.

 

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

Guys, Nyx is not a good starter frame at all....

Nyx isn't hard to play but she requires experience with enemy AI and how they act under certain effects. That's obviously not something a new player will have.

You can make her newbie friendly with Assimilate but she's not a forgiving frame to play otherwise. A new player will prolly just keep getting shot, think her CC sucks and play something else.

I disagree thoroughly. Nyx is actually the best candidate to be another starter. Reasoning: she fulfills all 3 variations of the Control role, like the rest of the Starters do for their own roles. She can Distract, Nullify, and Subvert the enemy. She sets up players for all the rest of the Control oriented Warframes.

She was my second Warframe, and I don't agree with your projections of how a new player would view her. I picked up the mechanics quickly, and in fact using her lead me to study the enemy behaviors, to learn their 'personalities', so I could better take advantage of them. It's called learning the game, it doesn't have to be spelled out to a player.

If she had been a starter when I began Warframe, I would have picked her. I don't think she's overpowered, I just think she appeals more to my play-style, and she is no more complex or difficult to use, nor does she have the edge over, any of the existing starters.

[Xzorn]

6 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

I disagree thoroughly. Nyx is actually the best candidate to be another starter. Reasoning: she fulfills all 3 variations of the Control role, like the rest of the Starters do for their own roles. She can Distract, Nullify, and Subvert the enemy. She sets up players for all the rest of the Control oriented Warframes.

She was my second Warframe, and I don't agree with your projections of how a new player would view her. I picked up the mechanics quickly, and in fact using her lead me to study the enemy behaviors, to learn their 'personalities', so I could better take advantage of them. It's called learning the game, it doesn't have to be spelled out to a player.

If she had been a starter when I began Warframe, I would have picked her. I don't think she's overpowered, I just think she appeals more to my play-style, and she is no more complex or difficult to use, nor does she have the edge over, any of the existing starters.

 

I think you are overestimating the situation base on your own learning curve. Nyx was my 2nd frame as well and original Nyx is still my most used frame.

I think an ideal starter frame is one who's abilities are very clear to the eye and majority of Nyx's abilities are complete trial and error until you learn enemy AI. That's not a good starting position.

If you clear a planet or two then sure, it could be time to use Nyx but not when you're just learning the controls and how to move. I agree that she fills the role well and she's not hard to use but she can also be very unforgiving. Chaos is not as cut and dry and Blind and her abilities don't really compensate for a new player's lack of firepower.

This is why I think Oberon would be ideal. His abilities are easy to see what's going on, he can nuke in order to compensate new player's lack of firepower and he can CC to some extent but is not reliant on any one thing.

 

[Krion112]

Just now, Xzorn said:

-snip-

I could argue, likewise, that you underestimate the situation based upon your learning curve. We all play Warframe for the same reason, and that reason is that there's a multitudes of ways to play. I probably caught on quickly because I'm inclined to the Control role; a player who is not will, yes, possibly get confused, but you could say the same for Mag and Volt as well. The only one that couldn't possibly confuse you with its purpose is Excalibur, because Offense is already the method of play most players go for, because it's simple: Push on, and strike. This is probably why Excalibur is the poster-boy, and why he was made to resemble his Dark Sector counterpart.

But, if you're already inclined to the other roles, you'll pick it up with a smooth learning curve. And is that not the point of allowing the player to choose their starter anyway, to let them have an immediate outlet to play in a way that matches their style.

Also, you talk of CC, and how Nyx can't nuke' to compensate for the early lack of firepower, but let me remind you of two things: first off, all abilities that deal damage are extremely deadly early on, even when unmodded. A new player with Nyx is still going to be just as a effective as a new player with Excalibur, Volt, or Mag in the terms of being able to 'compensate' for their newb status. Second off, the first two quests in the game guarantee you will get the mods you need to progress at a smooth pace, unlike before where it was all up to chance. A player does not stay ineffective as long as they used to. Therefore, this 'necessity' for 'compensation' is a null-point.

Finally, I would argue Oberon is not ideal. He is not the jack-of-all-trades of his role, therefore he does not prepare the player for other Warframes of his same role, unlike Nyx as I have said. As well, I feel like Oberon is too specialized to be a starter; he lacks definitive flexibility within his role.

As an aside, I just want to mention that the topic here is about Mag being a starter, so we should probably keep this argument to a minimum; wouldn't want to derail the thread needlessly.

[Xzorn]

30 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

I could argue, likewise, that you underestimate the situation based upon your learning curve.

 

Except I'm not insulting you by saying you overestimate based on your learning curve.

I disagree with every point you've made and I've made clear in another post my views on Mag as a starter.

In the 3 years of experience I've played this game I've found the average player to be quite awful and I've also played with a recent new players and most have to be told how to upgrade and use mods. There are founders who still make mistakes on how many mods work while others who think Telos Boltace is the best melee ever... so I doubt that I underestimate the situation.

[Krion112]

Just now, Xzorn said:

Except I'm not insulting you by saying you overestimate based on your learning curve.

I disagree with every point you've made and I've made clear in another post my views on Mag as a starter.

In the 3 years of experience I've played this game I've found the average player to be quite awful and I've also played with a recent new players and most have to be told how to upgrade and use mods. There are founders who still make mistakes on how many mods work while others who think Telos Boltace is the best melee ever... so I doubt that I underestimate the situation.

I wasn't offended, I was just pointing out your own argument works just as well against you as it does against me. If I offend you at all, I don't mean to. Tone can't be relayed properly through lifeless words.

You can't just say you disagree without backing up your claim as to why. If you don't want to argue against me, you don't have to, it doesn't concede your point, but if you're going to present that you disagree, I do expect an explanation. Also, I only brought up the Mag thing because we're arguing about Nyx being a starter, when the subject matter is 'should Mag be a starter'. Just didn't want to derail the OP's thread.

I've been around for about 3 years as well, and I have experienced almost the exact opposite. I have accompanied faster-learners just as much as I've encountered any other variant of player. The people you observe on your endeavors are an anecdote; neither of us can bring up other players and suggest that what we encountered is only truth, because we both have had different experiences within the same space. 

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

8 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

I agree, rhino should take place of mag.

No, Rhino is way too OP for a starter, and he is the first frame people farm for.

Starters should be: Volt, Excal, and Oberon.

Edited November 12, 2016 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[o.0-]

This certainly is a neat topic to brainstorm on, since long time players need to try to see how Warframe works from the perspective of a brand new player who likely has not taken the time to research the wiki, found outside the game, when going through that very first quest of awakening.

So from my perspective there are a few important aspects that need to be factored in the starter choices that are both diverse and can stand strong on content up to level 30 max enemies.

So I feel that these would be solid choices (IMHO):

• Excalibur - Icon of the Franchise, excellent scaling through content, Acquisition-Star map Boss
• Volt -Shields, effective melee capacity over time, excellent scaling through content, Acquisition-Clan Lab
• Nyx - Abilities are more straight forward than Mag, nice scaling through content, eventually can turn into the Terminator (dat sweet Augment), early alt design of the Icon of the Franchise, Acquisition-Star map Boss
• Zephyr - Solid scaling through content (Turbulence is underestimated,  reliant on power tweaks to first two abilities and Tornado, and currently underestimated overall anyway), Acquisition-Clan Lab and the cherries on top - inclusion forces attention on tweaking abilities and passive in context of Parkour 2.0 (she at least needs a means to drop faster without spending energy on Divebomb)

I feel that such a setup could work out nicely for new players and keep stronger specialists as goals to attain later as one learns more about Warframe.

 

And as compelling as it is to have Oberon (or Ash) be available earlier, I feel he relies on certain high ranking mods based on his starter stats and current animations. Not to mention Ash needing at least a dusting on his abilities.

Banshee, Nova, Valkyr and Saryn where other frames I strongly considered, but factoring the reliance on high ranking mods, their base stats and the use of multiple formas for certain powerhouse builds, felt that these were more Intermediate and Advanced options in relation to the kits of Nyx and Zephyr, IMHO. I admit I can be wrong somewhere in my thinking, but sharing seemed to be the thing to do!