Thanks for watching Devstream #83!

[[DE]Rebecca]

Winners include:
Platinum:

Aquinas_Hub
Zero_ace
PhailX
TWW Swag + Platinum:

MoodyGlue
ShiftyEnigma

An overview will be up today, and now we record The Second Stream Podcast!

 

[KaeseSchnitte]

I've tried to ask this during the stream, but thanks to slow mode (10 minutes between messages! Yay!) my question wasn't read, so here goes nothing.
Could you add an artificial horizon to archwing missions that is based on the alingment of your minimap? I get lost constantly currently.

 

As for the Riven changes, we will see how they play out. But my personal opinion is that the time you need to balance those mods could be just as well spent on balancing old weapons.

Edited November 18, 2016 by KaeseSchnitte

[Alcoholism]

You guys touched on playing as Operator which is good but I wanted to also add just in case.

I played with a squad of 3 Operators and one Nezha Safeguard (Warding Halo) to keep us alive. We actually had a lot of fun playing like that and was hoping there are going to be Operator only missions (even though you guys kind of hinted this). I just wanted to double check.
As it stands right now you just get one shot the moment you transfer to Operator in high level missions.

Also in regards to Rivens, will you guys explain better how the stats scale as it is cycled each time? And how does Mastery Rank lock affect the stats or number of stats on the mod. For example chance of obtaining "x" amount of stats, chance of positive vs negative stat, stat percentages randomly generated in a range between "x" and "y" values etc.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Alcoholism

[MakeLuvNotWerFrame]

Steve is oh so sassy at the start of the stream, I bloody love the electoral reffrence

 

[Profit62]

Ash deluxe skin next week....

Thanks DE

[AdunSaveMe]

I'm always asleep when they happen

Now that I'm awake I forget to watch

[NightmareT12]

 "The system is in balance Tenno. You ain't needed."

[zero_ace]

:3

[JesterTheNight]

"I was mooning pretty hard." - Steve Sinclair 2016

...uhm... <_<

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mooning

[AdunSaveMe]

[LIKE_A_PR3DAT0R]

Talking about the Endo sortie reward , why not put a single Endo reward ike 3000 endo? I think it would be better, we now have 7 awards, but realistically speaking we always get the 4 usual things, 2/4k endo, lens or riven mod....

stupid idea, why not put a wheel of fortune at the end of the sortie? maybe this will give us a chance to get a orokin catalyst / reactor or a legendary core

[Shaka87]

:O I love you

[notlamprey]

And what a stream it was!

We laughed, we cried, some of us got really sweaty and uncomfortable.

What matters most is that you all keep giving us these streams; being willing to talk about the tough stuff is so necessary and so appreciated.

Spoiler

You will be rewarded for your bravery

Just like some of your neighbors down south are being asked to give... something else a chance, I'll be doing my best to give these new mods a chance. I can't promise that future feedback will all be positive, but I can promise that I still think this game and its devs are all a fantastic little part of my life.

@[DE]Rebecca

Speaking only for myself here, I do appreciate all of you folks and the fantastic journey of this game we play. Warframe, its devs and its community, are a bright spot in a world that doesn't have enough of them.

[Brasten]

Damage 3.0, a study in exponential scaling systems related to Player vs non-player enemies/challenges. A.K.A Rocket Tag

The problem with Warframe's damage model is the same one Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 (Pathfinder) has/had, that 4th Edition D&D tried to solve and was rejected for. It is a model that works okay in Pen and Paper system that are governed by a live game master who can essentially patch on the fly and in real time.

The power curve model in Warframe is not dissimilar to D&D 3.5 / OGL (Open Gaming License) 3.5. Early play states are rather deadly to the player, middle states are a fairly reasonable balance between them player and non-player enemies. At high and "end" game states the balance again becomes deadly and skews hard. A study of the D&D 3.5 system took designers, players, and game masters nearly 7 years to get a handle on, with 5 more years of extended time with the Pathfinder variation. If you are a game designer working on RPG systems, it is worth your time to dig in and research the history of its design. @[DE]Rebecca If you haven't gotten @[DE]Steve to play a level 15-20 Pathfinder game, you likely should set one up as part some R&D time.

As I said this system works okay (not great) in live Pen and Paper setting, because its not an automated system. There is a live human Game Master, sitting at the table, and stepping in where the rules of the system start to break down. Warframe and other digital RPG systems don't have the luxury. There are many such cracks and flaws that become apparent as D&D 3.5/Pathfinder reaches its highest levels of play. This was extend by the Epic Level Handbook set of optional rules, which un-capped Player scaling and allowed it to be infinite.

What does "nerd stuff" have to do with Warframe Damage 3.0? 

In two words, Rocket Tag.

Where the Defenses of two sides are substantially lower than their ability to do damage. Meaning the first side to land a hit, gets the kill. As D&D/Pathfinder characters reach the 15 to 20 level range, certain character class (mostly Wizards and other spell casters) gain options for damage that far outstrip most enemy defense. This also holds true for NPC Monsters, who gain Attack and Damage scores that outstrip the defenses of Fighters and other class that are supposed to be front line defenders. One of the kings of D&D/Pathfinder at that level of play is Crowd Control and Damage Negation, the abilities to prevent enemies from attacking in the first place and/or preemptively prevent damage from being done.

In Warframe we have a very similar situation. Player's ability to do damage quickly out paces enemy resistance from about enemy level 10 to 30 or 40. Past that point most damage options start to fall off, outside of "overpowered" options. In D&D this is various kinds of Spells or player Feat options, that exploit the game system. In Warframe this is a sub-selection of Warframes and Weapons that specifically target weakness in the system, not the enemies.

The rocket tag state is an outgrowth of a bottom-up set of formulaic stat increases, opened to infinite growth. They simply just break down when left alone. Again for D&D and a live Human watching the game state in real time for at most 6 other players, it can be kept stable. For digital games like Warframe... we can clearly see it doesn't work. Which is why the player base keeps calling for a Damage 3.0. We can feel the broken elements of it, even if most people can't articulate it.

For Warframe, Damage 3.0 needs to step away from D&D/Pathfinders model of bottom-up stat formulas, and arguably do what 4th Edition D&D was excoriated for. It needs to begin with top level of expected play, and build downward. We've had enough development time now to find where Player Damage, Defenses, and other (Crowd Control) being to max out. Excluding those that explicitly exploit flaws in the system. With that information in hand a Balance point between Player and Enemy "stats" can be reached and capped.

Without setting, capping, and building around a clear top end play state Warframe will continue to suffer D&D/Pathfinder's issue of high-level Rocket Tag. Where only the most exploitative options are "viable" without live Human intervention (pulling punches and fudging dice results).

It's party why I rather dislike the Riven Mods as they are "intend". They are like the Epic Level Handbook, uncapping player growth to match the already uncapped enemy growth... of even bigger rockets to tag with. With the way Warframe's damage system is designed they cannot meet their intended goal of "buffing" older weaker weapons/options. Largely because there is no target goal of "top end" for them to reach. DE is trying to get the Rivens to make weaker options meet an every scaling set of bigger meaner rockets.

That is what Damage 3.0 needs to address. Pick a Top End target goal for Player/Enemy interaction balance and lock it in. Change things that need it (including mod/weapon stats), nerf anything that goes over line. Yes new additions to the game will sometimes break things, but they should be brought into line quickly and not left alone. Once that system is in place, then it can be slowly extended. Either in depth of options, or a new "top" level, carefully selected.

.... Or we can keep playing new versions of Rocket Tag as "end game". Clearly the development direction is up to you DE.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Brasten

[lylathewicked]

Wanted to thank you guys for making this game a thing. Right now ive got another 5 months of being at home while receiving chemo treatments every two weeks, and on my good days im playing warframe.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

It was nice seeing and hearing from some new faces in today's devstream, interesting stuff.

[Rhekemi]

Good stream.

I think Eric (the lighting guy) and the MoCap fellow (forget his name) were the best special guests you've had on in quite some time.

Good deal of info on how/why things are being rolled out as they are/delayed, as well.