Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, Iceyspy said:

I have to preface this by saying that Ash used to be my main back in the days of U8. I really like the whole " Ninja " aspect that he has to him; The Shurikens, The Smoke bombs - the entire package.

 

As for the " press 4 to win " mentality, i`m all for reducing it as much as possible so I was always quite passionate about reworking not only Ash`s Bladestorm, but also the rest of his kit.

 

After playing several missions with the new rework, these are my thoughts on how he can be tweaked in order to become the true ninja badass he was always meant to be;

 

Power #1 - Shuriken

 

Current state: A decent power that also has the potential to shred enemy armor with its augment ( Seeking Shuriken ). However, can fall off quite easily in higher level missions.

Suggested change: Though this was probably suggested before, I`ll post it here anyway - make it scale with the combo multiplier, but instead of increasing Shuriken damage, the multiplier would increase the number of Shurikens thrown.

Example: I reach a combo multiplier of x1.5, so now I can shoot 3 shurikens with a 50% chance of a 3rd one.

 

Power #2 - Smoke Screen

Current state: A version of Loki`s invisibility that indeed offers a certain degree of survivability, but lacks duration and is often scolded for being an " inferior copypaste " of Loki`s Invisibility.

Suggested changes: Now, with this ability, there are 2 ways I`d like to see it go:

Version 1 - Make the base duration closer to that of Loki`s Invisibility & also make the ability re-castable. This allows for greater synergy should you decide to use the " Smoke Shadow " augment as it would allow you to cloak allies at any given time.

Power #3 - Teleport

Current state: A mobility skill that allows for some interesting ways to reach certain spots, but is sadly outclassed by the advanced parkour movement already present in the game.

As many players have requested before, the ability could probably be free aim - you would be able to teleport anywhere you look, but the range would be shorter.

 

Power #4 - Blade Storm

 

Current state: A room-clearing skill that can take out entire groups of mobs in an instant. However, there are 2 core issues: The exponentially increased energy cost & The fact that the player has no input on when the actual " Blade storming " happens during animations.

 

Suggested changes: 

 

Version 1 - Upon pressing 4, you still go into " Marking mode ", but once you press 4 again to initiate the assassination of marked targets, you instead spawn your clones that do the Blade Storm for you while you`re able to run around, shoot, stab, etc.  Energy spent would only be on initial ability cast <OR> could potentially be a toggle skill ( like Exalted Blade, Hysteria, etc. )

 

Version 2 ( Also suggested by many other people ) - Ash now draws his hidden blades and is able to use them as melee weapons with their own unique stance ( similar to Exalted Blade ). The " unique " feature of this mode would be that the blades themselves would be the fastest " Exalted-style " weapon ( since they are daggers, after all ). He would also be able to blitz around, from enemy to enemy, as he does now with Blade Storm but with more input from the player - this would be his unique " Charge attack ".

 

IN CONCLUSION: I would just like to thank DE for all their hard work & effort, especially when it comes to changing things that people feel strongly about - you always want to improve the game and all of it`s aspects while also pleasing as many people as possible, but that`s kinda hard to do sometimes! However, I believe you guys can do it, so just keep up the good work! :)

 

 

This ^

[Entharias]

Hi DE, i have some ideas about how to make Ash a bit better:
1) Smoke Screen base duration should be increased up to 10s instead of 8s at rank 3.
2) Bladestorm rework is a nice step toward what Ash should be, but it doesn't feel complete, i think that Bladestorm should scale with melee mods (with a multiplicator like the Mesa's one) and when in mark mode (or 'assassin mode' like i call it) Ash should gain benefits, like an increase to movement speed and enemy detection (like with scanners), of course this should not be for free, mark mode should drain energy/s + energy per mark.
3) Bladestorm animation lock shouldn't exist, i think that Ash should use his specters to kill marked enemies while he walks freely.

My ideas were inspired (not directly) by Mogamu.

[Flare_Eyes]

After playing the ash with the rework I have some thoughts to make blade storm better.

I would like to see a Blade storm icon on the heads-up display to show how many enemies are marked and this icon also shows that you have blade storm mark mode active. Its because sometimes when I'm invisible I forget if I'm on blade storm until I either become visible or see enemies to mark. Also, It would be nice to have blade storm mark mode still active after performing the finishers. Toggle it off by pressing the ability again without any marked enemies.

Thinking about giving marked enemies a debuff while marked, maybe lower their accuracy.

Another ability synergy that can compliment Blade Storm is Shuriken. Possibly increase Shuriken damage on marked enemies or give them a debuff when hit. Also thought of blade storming marked enemies when hit by shuriken. Many possible synergies can be done with other abilities as well such as; teleporting on a marked enemy increase their stun duration and smoke screen in front of aware enemies makes them unaware of ash presence.

I'll try to keep playing the ash on different gamemode to see how his ability rework can be improve.

[_QuXotic_RagE_]

I really lyked the changes but the bladestorm is still the same, jst with increased complexity.

we still have to watch the finisher animation for all targets nd w8 fr it to finish lyk b4, dats boring. I wish instead of ash, his clones finish off the enemies while we can move freely nd if its too op as mentioned in one of devstream, jst bring one clone instead of multiple clones to balance it along with an tweaks.

 

overall nice update gr8 lukin skin by far the bst acc. to me.

thxx DE :)

 

[kreftet]

2 hours ago, Iceyspy said:

I have to preface this by saying that Ash used to be my main back in the days of U8. I really like the whole " Ninja " aspect that he has to him; The Shurikens, The Smoke bombs - the entire package.

 

As for the " press 4 to win " mentality, i`m all for reducing it as much as possible so I was always quite passionate about reworking not only Ash`s Bladestorm, but also the rest of his kit.

 

After playing several missions with the new rework, these are my thoughts on how he can be tweaked in order to become the true ninja badass he was always meant to be;

 

Power #1 - Shuriken

 

Current state: A decent power that also has the potential to shred enemy armor with its augment ( Seeking Shuriken ). However, can fall off quite easily in higher level missions.

Suggested change: Though this was probably suggested before, I`ll post it here anyway - make it scale with the combo multiplier, but instead of increasing Shuriken damage, the multiplier would increase the number of Shurikens thrown.

Example: I reach a combo multiplier of x1.5, so now I can shoot 3 shurikens with a 50% chance of a 3rd one.

 

Power #2 - Smoke Screen

Current state: A version of Loki`s invisibility that indeed offers a certain degree of survivability, but lacks duration and is often scolded for being an " inferior copypaste " of Loki`s Invisibility.

Suggested changes: Now, with this ability, there are 2 ways I`d like to see it go:

Version 1 - Make the base duration closer to that of Loki`s Invisibility & also make the ability re-castable. This allows for greater synergy should you decide to use the " Smoke Shadow " augment as it would allow you to cloak allies at any given time.

Version 2 - Instead of granting invisibility, Ash throws down a smoke bomb that puts up an actual screen of smoke which expands outwards and is affected by range mods. Allies within the screen gain increase melee damage, while enemies take increased damage from all sources & have their accuracy reduced.

 

Power #3 - Teleport

Current state: A mobility skill that allows for some interesting ways to reach certain spots, but is sadly outclassed by the advanced parkour movement already present in the game.

As many players have requested before, the ability could probably be free aim - you would be able to teleport anywhere you look, but the range would be shorter.

 

Power #4 - Blade Storm

 

Current state: A room-clearing skill that can take out entire groups of mobs in an instant. However, there are 2 core issues: The exponentially increased energy cost & The fact that the player has no input on when the actual " Blade storming " happens during animations.

 

Suggested changes: 

 

Version 1 - Upon pressing 4, you still go into " Marking mode ", but once you press 4 again to initiate the assassination of marked targets, you instead spawn your clones that do the Blade Storm for you while you`re able to run around, shoot, stab, etc.  Energy spent would only be on initial ability cast <OR> could potentially be a toggle skill ( like Exalted Blade, Hysteria, etc. )

 

Version 2 ( Also suggested by many other people ) - Ash now draws his hidden blades and is able to use them as melee weapons with their own unique stance ( similar to Exalted Blade ). The " unique " feature of this mode would be that the blades themselves would be the fastest " Exalted-style " weapon ( since they are daggers, after all ). He would also be able to blitz around, from enemy to enemy, as he does now with Blade Storm but with more input from the player - this would be his unique " Charge attack ".

 

IN CONCLUSION: I would just like to thank DE for all their hard work & effort, especially when it comes to changing things that people feel strongly about - you always want to improve the game and all of it`s aspects while also pleasing as many people as possible, but that`s kinda hard to do sometimes! However, I believe you guys can do it, so just keep up the good work! :)

 

 

exactly this for bladestorm make it like fatal teleport bladestorm mix you press target you teleport and kill it amazing ideas btw DE listen to this guy he knows what hes talking about 

[Yuzai_No]

Well my suggestion to Ash's Bladestorm rework is to make it similar to Sonic The Hedgehog's Homing Attack if you have played his game.

Once Bladestorm activates, the camera would zoom out so that you could get a better view and mark your next target while in the middle of the animation. You would jump from enemy to enemy. Each jump would cost energy of course

[KenthNisshoku]

my ideas for Ash's abilities

Shuriken = enemies that are hit by this will take the usual damage/bleed and be stunned/knocked down

Smoke Screen = increase the duration to 12s / make a target ability like aim for an enemy/ally and it will be covered with smoke nullifying any attacks in the aoe

Teleport = when you teleport to an enemy it will stagger/knock it down then giving you a boost to your next attack like 250% increase

Bladestorm = marked enemies should be all struck once by the ability at the same time by clones/Ash 

Edited November 26, 2016 by KenthNisshoku

[UvBenServed]

Random Blade Storm idea:

Pressing 4 makes Ash enter a state of extreme concentration where his movement is hindered, but he'll be able to sense, mark and attack enemies through any surface, as long as they are within range.

[tnccs215]

4 hours ago, AhmadIvu said:

Well you guys dont get it do you? The time efficient killing machine has finally brought down to justice to please the vocal minority. What will you actually do with the counter when running survivals long enough or even 80-100+ enemy missions as now endless has returned with a different appearance. Will you be able to or like to take him to radiation sorties now with the new rework as this was one of the most shouted reasons to kill ash. It actually depends on how, when and to what extent you will use him. Usual regular missions wont bother a thing even if you dont run Bladestorm a single time.

I actually took him on one of those yesterday, and it went pretty fine tbh. But less cheesy.

Also, it was possibly my second or third time using him, so yeah... I think he's both still fine and easy.

[Rain3ternal]

19 minutes ago, UvBenServed said:

Random Blade Storm idea:

Pressing 4 makes Ash enter a state of extreme concentration where his movement is hindered, but he'll be able to sense, mark and attack enemies through any surface, as long as they are within range.

The point of Ash is to not have his mobility or speed hindered though, as that is really one of his biggest advantages. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

DE DEVELOPMENT TEAM: 

DO THIS AND EVERYONE WILL BE HAPPY THANK YOU.

We have "mark mode" now ok,  so I have a final suggestion.............

Make "mark mode"  (LIKE Ember WOF) a "buff" for Ashs 1,2,3 

1-more shuriken (6) guaranteed bleed proc.

2-more duration and confuses enemys in 15 meter aoe

3-clones do the finisher

*all energy consumption stay they same.

* none of the augments change, except for the rising storm description. 

*Gets rid of screen poping animation, makes ash interactive, mobs are not invincible, and most importantly your still a fast and deadly ninja.

AND THERE U GO..DONE AND DONE.

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[aerosoul1337]

What a lazy rework.

1.Same animations, and most of them are bugged (that I have been reporting for years), blade storm still missing melee combo counter on all robotics and machines. I got ZERO combo from the video.

2.The camera is still annoying as hell.

3.Ash is still misplaced.

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[cob_metallica]

i enjoy the new rework for smoke screen and teleport, but i definitely dont like the new blade storm. Marking is really boring and useless to do , it would be faster with just your guns , your teammates, your teleport + augment or whatever else really, without even talking about the energy spent nerf. i wish you can review blade storm and offer something really different.

[Death_Master_]

4 hours ago, K4r4k4s4 said:

You'd better nerf Banshi and Nova because they are making game boring. Not the Ash.

What makes game boring are corpus units like nulls/combas scrambus and those new stealth nerfs.

Killing/locking mobs is fun, we play to have it basically!

While Nova and Banshee do need some rework to make them stronger(Nova's 1 and banshee's 3 need some love) they are valuable members of any team if players are good.

But i agree ash did not need such a massive nerf, Ash was good for some situations and now Ash is good nowhere.

[aerosoul1337]

2 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

Bladestorm is just too complicated and ineffective to deal damage now, although the damage output is even higher than pre-rework.

Damage is lower especially DPS, same base of 2000, but it used to attack 18 targets with 100 energy and up to 51 attacks, you stacked combo a lot more.

Now a target can be attacked up to 3 times only (instead of 17) and consumes 3x energy. Your clones do not help the progress, it only attack multi-marked target. If you mark 18 targets, you have to watch the animations 18 times instead of 6.

Edited November 26, 2016 by aerosoul1337

[Isochronic]

So, after a few hours of some sweet salt-induced sleep I can form my final thoughts. And... they're no different from the first page. Like, trash compactor is the only option for me (note: I am not forcing my preferences and my playstyle on others, like some of you do). 

I, as 23MR player with Ash as second main (and Volt being the first, and his rework was actually outstanding, were they made by a different people?), thought we had some right to have warframes for 100+ level missions that won't die right away and are capable of a team play, with a chance to revive teammates, while having a proc from arcane. And are actually able to deal damage by themselves and not tigris/simulor/pretty much 1/4 of our arsenal. This was effective panic button. Okay, it was op-ish, okay, it was boring. But it was a panic button, his only panic button in case something went crazy. DE, you didn't solve the problem with people bringing op, you didn't solve the problem with people easily running trough "endgame" missions. You just removed one warframe, which was decent (and, to a side-note, nowhere near Equinox level of decent with clearing the whole map in one click, ya know?), from the "able to do endgame" shelf and gently put him into the garbage bin, and voila, you're done. 

Of course, there were edgelords who were going with Ash in public and played spam 4 to win. Now, there will be edgelords who will be going in pub with Equi, with Mirage and simulor, with Nova and any op gun, Ember and Mesa with decent builds, who will suddenly ruin all the fun for others. Suddenly, most of the time "others" are with level 5 starter frames and apparently anybody can steal their fun. Why no solo then, if everything is not fun? Why force Ash solo? 

Ash's problem was that he was the most picked one and the most noticeable one due to the impossibility to kill the enemy he was on. And this, I think, is the most-overlooked point - he was on. I personally was able to shoot his marked targets except for the one he was currently damaging (pre-rework at least). And it is still here, with all the glorious "rework". And cutscene is here, just 2x times more buggy, with need to shake your mouse in attempt to actually target everyone and pathetically dying when your smokescreen suddenly runs out in a middle of almost-marked bunch. And if I want to kill 3 at once, not 18 at once, I can just grab my melee, like telos boltace. Still has proc, still has damage, just, you know, faster and not forces to pick who you want to kill. Slide and you're done.

Just now you need almost 3x energy for the same amount of kills, just now you have no panic button, and just now you are completely worthless to your team unless they like to carry around almost useless frame. I see no problem with people playing old-school warframes without chances to actually instakill some part of the tile, but I see a problem with them forcing me into this.

People who were crying about Ash needing a nerf clearly never played him with some thinking put into it. When I had no constant team and had to go some missions in pub, I've seen people whining that I stole their kills. People who were trying to start argument with me about Ash, who left because I had more kills. If this is what was in pub til' rework I can understand it, no problem. Just wondering what will be next - simulor+mirage probs?

There was a great idea somewhere upper - matchmaking preferences. Set it to "No <framename>" and be happy.

/rantover, I guess

Edited November 26, 2016 by A.Rosen

[Darkmuramasa]

@DE

Spoiler

I'd like to start out by saying I love this game. I have 1446 hours played according to steam and I believe at least 200 of those hours were because I left the game open or I was just running around inside my ship waiting for a thought to come to my empty head.

I like playing pretty much all the frames, have 'em all. Prime versions included. I'm Master Rank 22 and a Founder. I've spent money on this game every time something new comes out just so I can rank it up and see the new interesting thing I get to play with. I don't tell you this to brag or to say I'm better than anyone. I'm not.

I tell you this because I want to give you a glimpse of how I view this game. I have seen what some of the most skilled players can do, and I shudder at their skill and dedication. I'm not the best, I like to think of myself as an slightly above average player with more time and money on hand than most. I can see the summit of the peak that is the Elite, but I feel no need to climb it as the view I have is enough for me. There will always be those player who take something beyond it's intended purpose. That make seemingly under powered into something to be feared or coveted by others. Listen to me when I say this. You can't stop that. No one can.

I don't mean to tell you not to try though. Regardless I'm rambling, onto the rework.

 

What is Ash? A ninja? Ideally. Or at least a very murdery sort of ninja.

Would a more traditional ninja fit into what Warframe is/has become? Not really. 

Alright so his current kit.

1) Shuriken - Deals decent damage for the cost, not too useful at long range. Adds a bleed with will more than likely kill the target after some time if they aren't killed by the impact.

- Not much to say here. Decent move for a starter.

2) Smoke Screen - Makes you invisible for 8 secs at Rank 3 with no mods and "Stuns" enemies within 10 meters. Can now use on the go. (For those who don't stop/can't stop)

- His only means of stealth. 8 secs is more than enough time to get past something without being noticed and the "Stun" which lasts last about 2-3 seconds isn't very useful for anything really other than running away. Which let's be honest here you're not doing that, and if you are then you probably shouldn't be there to begin with. And even if you did run to go back into stealth without killing the enemy, they know you're there and will sound the alarm first chance they get. So you better finish what you start and quietly at that. Not very useful in the day to day life of most Warframe missions, but it can help in very particular circumstances. 

3) Teleport - Without mods at Rank 3 has a range of 60 meters and can now be used on anything with a health bar. Also allows you to finisher most enemies afterwards even if they are alerted.

- Neat. More useful for sneaking around now than Smoke Screen as you can avoid people entirely or straight up kill them one by one. Same power cost as Shuriken so spammable for a time. Serviceable move though it is a remnant of the old move set, akin to Loki's Switch Teleport but with the chance of the ultimate CC...death.

4) Blade Storm -  Enter a marking state where each target you mark takes more energy from you. Activate again to unleash and pull back the curtain of death. 

- A lot to say here. Now the previous Blade Storm was fire and watch the show. Did a metric F***-ton damage more likely to kill anything and everything. Quite powerful. Most say too powerful, and they are half right. With a very large range of activation on top of "area of effect", with bleed damage a self loathing teen would weep about, and more stabbing than anyone could shake a stick at? Yeah this move was powerful but...You, the player, didn't do much during it or even for it. 

Now the current Blade Storm has plenty of damage sure, more control over where it goes...sorta...and takes actual effort to pull off. Then we still go through scenes of stabby stabby murder death kill. Fine animations to be sure. Okay a little clipping here or there but come on no one is that perfect. Problem is before he was user friendly. Set amount of energy for set amount of dead people. Sure this could be augmented to the extreme to pretty much allow you to spam it but there are other frames that can do the same. Ash just excelled at it to a boring degree. Now it's frustrating when in a group to pull this off as people will end up killing your targets before you get to. Sure that happened with the previous version but then the targets you didn't end up killing got extra helpings of death instead. New one takes much more energy for each marking, sure you get it back if the target dies...except once the animation has started. Chances are your allies still have the chance to kill it cause the animation seems to be slightly slower.

Takes a massive amount of energy to even target the amount of enemies it used to. Previous version killed at least 10 people at rank 3 with 100 energy. This version you'd have to use the Smoke Screen to lower the energy cost and even then you have to rush cause of the short time frame. Either that or spend 50 more energy. That is far too much to worry about for the average player much less a skilled one who then has to worry about his teammates who are probably killing stuff faster than he is at this point cause they just shoot things or use their (now OP in comparison) ultimates to kill the same amount or more enemies in less time for less effort and energy. 

There is no reward for doing this other than a cinematic. Now I agree the ultimate needed a rework and this marking system is an interesting idea. It doesn't exactly work very well in the game you currently have. This just doesn't seem to be the answer. 

 

TL:DR - Taking steps that needed to be taken, not sure if it's the right direction for the game however.

RANT. OVER.

[Guest]

1 - Shuriken was untouched.  If we're changing ash to add emphasis to his stealth, then why not give some bonus to shuriken when cast in stealth, or in BS targeting mode?  As is, it's currently better damage than his ult when doing low level missions since it's spammable, auto-targeting, and ignores LoS.  Against high level content, it's only useful when used with the augment since it's nothing more than raw damage with no effects tied to it.

2 - Changes made to smoke screen are fantastic and very much greatly improve builds focused on high duration.  That said, he's still way behind other stealth frames in regards to energy cost per second of stealth, and ability synergy with the stealth mechanics.  The energy cost reduction synergy with blade storm is not so much a perk as it is a necessity, since BS is so expensive now and ash is squishy outside of stealth.  Maintaining stealth while repeatedly using bladestorm is cost prohibitive without the synergy.  Even zenurik can have a hard time keeping him fueled up.  Meanwhile, the only benefit ash gains from his stealth is cheaper BS, and not getting directly shot.  Meanwhile, Loki can make everything he does while stealthed silent with an augment while ivara can walk through lasers and gets enormously amped damage while stealthed since she can not only sleep enemies for unalerted bonuses, she also gets baseline head shot damage bonuses while stealthed.  It can be said that since BS gains it's efficiency bonus from ANY stealth source, that it's not even true synergy for ash, since he could just as easily use a huras, or shade, or companion Ivara to stay invisible.

3 - Teleport is still buggy and inconsistent.  There are many objects that cannot be teleported to that appear identical to objects that CAN be teleported to (ie - destructible railing in the void vs non-destructible railings).  Adding in the object targeting can confuse the ability such that it teleports to a box or railing that's next to an enemy you're trying to target.  Fatal Teleport is STILL buggy, sometimes not performing any actions after a successful teleport to an enemy.  When a finisher IS performed, the animation is almost always wonky, with ash basically walking forward through the enemies body before delivering the killing blow.

4 - The changes only address the specific problems presented by players who WEREN'T and AREN'T actively playing ash and only complained about him spamming BS.  Enemies marked by BS can now be killed by anyone since they're not invulnerable.  Meanwhile it takes ash 10x longer to actually execute a bladestorm.  This is a good thing for other players, but it means ash wastes a lot of time marking enemies who are about to get slaughtered by mirage's simulor.  Once BS is initiated, the player is still locked into the boring animation, waiting for it to finish, unable to adapt to changes in the environment.  Overall the change is nothing but a time gate that's been placed at the start of the ability, since sitting in a corner and waving your targeting reticule across all the enemies in the room is easy, but still takes time.  The ability itself isn't really changed at all.  It's just a Rube Goldberg machine that triggers it...  Targeting is most often just frantic waving back and forth across a group of enemies, hoping you get them all before unleashing BS as fast as you can.  It's not at all as interactive, nor as effective as Mesa's Peacemaker.  When you finish targeting, you're STILL stuck watching a stupid animation play out forever.  Why bother with the drawn out theatrics and ritualistic execution when the enemies could be dispatched twice as fast with a well-placed bullet?  The significantly slowed activation of BS makes utilizing melee synergy much harder, since building a melee combo and tagging a bunch of enemies to BS before it expires absolutely requires at least 1 combo duration mod, maybe 2 if you're slow.  BS now dissolves enemies who die, preventing alerting any nearby enemies who remain.  However, BS gains no bonus from unalerted kills in regards to damage or affinity.  If BS is gonna dissolve bodies, then why not fatal teleport as well?  Why bother dissolving enemies at all if it gives no benefit to ash whatsoever?  Enemy bodies that are destroyed by dissolve effects such as BS and molecular prime are only able to be desecrated for 3 seconds after death, leaving Nekros (who only desecrates one enemy at a time) unable to desecrate all the enemies killed by Ash.  This is a straight nerf to any drop farming potential (be it resources, mods, or just life support) and limits any team synergy that ash may have had despite his slow BS execution and LoS limitations. 

In my opinion, making BS more interactive and permitting better game play flow would involve leaving Ash out of the BS animation, and letting his clones do all the work.  He marks enemies, sends clones to kill them, and continues moving, fighting, and marking more enemies for another BS.  It'd be like combining world on fire with peacemaker.  Keep the cost per target, maybe reduce it a bit, reduce the damage a bit, but allow ash to continue acting independently of the BS cut scene.  He could continue marking new targets while his clones work, but wouldn't be able to initiate a new BS until his cloned finished.  BS could still benefit from melee combo counter and mods, but damage would have to be balanced around whether or not clone attacks would contribute to combo counter.

All in All, this iteration on Ash's kit makes him strongly focused on solo stealth play, and very weak for team play - be it with pugs or purpose-built group comps.  His DPS, while strong per execution, is very slow over the long term, allowing faster hitting frames and guns to outclass him.

[(PSN)RNickS_BRASIL]

From everything i saw till now this Rework looks unfinished

- Bladestorm mark mode will be terrible using Console Controller we saw how bad this is when Megan played this on Primetime 144 even her have troubles using the new BS ''THE MARK SYSTEM NEEDS CHANGE'' don't need to be 4 to win but give us less energy cost and a better way to spam this ability DE / Plus the animation supposed to be the focus of this rework but ... 

-Amazing now we can spam the smoke screen without problems (while moving) but 8 seconds is for laugh . Ash supposed to be a stealth frame and now that this has been realized (BLADESTORM DEAD) if Bladestorm will reamain the same smoke screen needs a a duration buff.

-Ash theres no value for team now is a complete solo warframe.

 

PS : DE if you are out of ideas hear the comunnity theres a lot of good ideas in there its not a shame use idea from someone here we are in a BETA GAME, many peoples love the game and are there to help this game better 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by (PS4)RNickS_BRASIL

[achromos]

Alright, I'm someone who Liked Ash from a Distance.  I disliked him for the same reasons I disliked Rhino, he was seen as the "Newb" frame.  Let's be honest, we all know people judge you twice as harsh as a Ash.  So, in my opinion this Rework adds a bit more to him, rather then just taking away.

General Opinion:  His Smokebomb rework, as long as you have at least at minimum 100% you will have 10 seconds of stealth on demand which is awesome especially on the go.  Previously when you activated his smokebomb ability he would be locked in place for 1-2 seconds not to mention losing momentum from the full stop.  This increases his ease of use in spy missions.  His Teleport still needs a MASSIVE fix for Infested as the augment "Fatal Teleport" only seems to work on Infested Runners.  His Bladestorm feels like a weaker "LoS" Version of Fatal Teleport more suited to damaging everything in the area.  The added synergy to being invisible is a boon as well and I find myself constantly either going for Smokebomb, Naramon, or thinking about having Prisma Shade Equipped.

In closing, this rework/revisit/[DE]-RE is going to be like Saryn's in the eyes of the community but Saryn is still fine.  She's just less of a ball hog, which Ash was with his AoE Bladestorm.

I'd keep a eye on:  Mirage, Ember, and Equinox.  As everyone knows, people will go to the path of least resistance and so far those are dominating right now.

[DKP123]

 

I would sugest to keep the marking from the new blade storm but give it a cone in front you to make it easier to mark groups of enemies and instead of making ash attack you would reactivate it for 3 shadows to attack the marked targets while you do your S#&amp;&#036;. Make teleport tp you to a targeted location within a medium range and pls increase the duration of smoke screen.

[Fari]

Just remove the ult cinematic. That's all I want, it's the one thing I really wanted in the first place, and the one thing that wasn't changed about it. I don't mind how the other changes to it are.

The targeting system is well made, no complaints about it, besides maybe how it promotes spamming your camera around, but then I find myself never actually wanting to pop the marks. Being taken out of the flow of combat feels terrible, it's boring, and at worst it can last over 30 seconds.

Not to mention you're doing less damage during that time, when you need LoS anyways guns infinitely faster, a single bullet in their head in the time you target each of them. And that's okay, except then you lose even more time in the actual animation of killing that wouldn't be necessary with any other frame or weapon. If you just sent out clones it WOULDN'T be too good, it'd be a much better experience.

Edited November 26, 2016 by NearoC

[DEATHLOK]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)RNickS_BRASIL said:

From everything i saw till now this Rework looks unfinished

- Bladestorm mark mode will be terrible using controller we saw how bad this is when Megan played this on Primetime 144 even her have troubles using the new BS ''THE MARK SYSTEM NEEDS CHANGE'' don't need to be 4 to win but give us less energy cost and a better way to spam this ability DE / Plus the animation supposed to be the focus of this rework but ... 

-Amazing now we can spam the smoke screen without problems (while moving) but 8 seconds is for laugh . Ash supposed to be a stealth frame and now that this has been realized (BLADESTORM DEAD) if Bladestorm will reamain the same smoke screen needs a a duration buff.

-Ash theres no value for team now is a complete solo warframe.

 

PS : DE if you are out of ideas hear the comunnity theres a lot of good ideas in there its not a shame use idea from someone here we are in a BETA GAME, many peoples love the game and are there to help this game better 

 

Let's do this, then, since so many pro gamers find this to be the very smartest, most interactive, most skill-based mechanic yet introduced to the game:

>>>>  MAKE ALL PLAYERS MANUALLY TARGET EVERY AoE ABILITY FROM NOW ON.  <<<<

Equinox, Frost, Ember, Rhino, Excaliber, Saryn, Banshee, Hydroid, and every other Warframe with AeE abilities should have to manually scan and target crowds before using their abilities, just like the new Ash.

This way, the game is entirely skill-based for pro-gamers.

Because, as so many have pointed out, this is the best mechanic DE has created to date and makes the game more fun.

Or, for the less ravenous:

Bladestorm needed a redesign, because Ash fairly unbalanced low-level game play (just like Equinix and Simulor Mirage). But this was not a redesign or re-imagining—it was a straight-up Nerf hatchet job, requiring as little time and resources as could be managed. This did not level the playing field, but instead sacrificed yet another Warframe to appease the pro gamer crowd.

Bladestorm needs to be redesigned in such a way as to complement other Warframe abilities and remain viable throughout a wide range of difficulty levels. Redesigns aren't done with Nerf hammers.

[Karixolu]

My own thoughts on this Ash rework!

His 2 Is pretty good now. The 8 seconds is more then enough time to mark enemies while in his 4 for the reduced cost. However. The reduced cost feels like that should be it's regular cost. Given that ash only has 100 energy in both Prime, and non-prime, 150 energy at max. Marking 10 times uses up /all/ of your energy if not invisible, without any efficiency mods. And even with streamline on, I pressed 4 while looking at a group of enemies and boop. All energy gone. If you cast Smoke screen, then try marking, you're using roughly the same amount of energy anyway.

The refund on energy if an enemy is killed while they're marked is nice, but could it cost less possibly on subsequent marks on the same enemy, perhaps? Or, make the ability cost less overall if not? With certain energy colours, the marks don't seem very visible at all, and even with the screen turning more saturated while in his 4, I found myself wondering if I was even using it while invisible because the effects weren't as obvious around Ash, his smoke cloud to be more specific.

The time it takes to mark, and remark enemies seems a tad too long as well. A big group of enemies? I press 4, start making them up, and then suddenly a mirage with a simulor jumps past, then the time it took me to mark them was wasted.

These are just my two cents on playing through several different missions, of various types as ash. The deluxe skin looks amazing, by the way! But I wont be using the helm.

[DragonslyrX]

This Ash rework has its ups and downs... My ONLY question to you DE is this... WHY DID YOU HALF &amp;#&#33; THIS???? If your going to redo one of the most favorited frames in the game, ay least do it RIGHT the first time and not make us sit here and watch you destroy yet another good warframe in the game like you did several times with other like Mag for a long time there. Has bladestorm been an issue? yes, Ash is a main for me. But you guys didnt even change it, you basically made it more expensive, and 2 clicks instead of 1 to do the same job. go watch some of the youtubers that loyally play this game, Mogamu, Tactical potato, and others, because lets face it, they are the ones breaking stuff down, coming up with good ideas. like what youve done with the smoke, and teleport, but the new bladestorm didnt change the real reason people wanted it changed in the first place. just made it an inconvenience.