Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Toran]

53 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

Agreed about the Blade Storm but, about the finishers, 

I think it would be much better to map finishers to a different key like the context button "x"

+1
great idea.

[Dragazer]

On 25/11/2016 at 4:14 PM, MrM1 said:

The ability was too overpowered. If you suggest to add another clone to attack the marked targets while you can walk around and do other things, it would be even more overpowered.

 

I have that feeling that 90% of the Warframe community can't live without powercreep...

 

 

This is why we end up with lack luster, half-baked "reworks"

Mans wanna talk about op and power creep with that 30% Synoid Simulor usage. Give me a break.

 

I have a feeling that 90% of people that liked this "rework" barely even played Ash before. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Dragazer

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 minutes ago, Dragazer said:

 

 

This is why we end up with lack luster, half-baked "reworks"

Mans wanna talk about power creep with that 30% synoid simulor usage. Give me a break.

 

I have a feeling that 90% of people that liked this "rework" barely even played Ash before. 

Agreed, None ash users should really stop polluting the thread. And all we need to stay in topic.

[Death_Master_]

Right now ash is so useless that often i spend more time than i wish reviving dead Ashes on defence missions... while actually me(as melee Nekros) and Mirage doing above 80% of total damage :(

And after big testing of the rework I do not wish anymore to play Ash until a normal rework happens.

There are 29 more useful frames(not counting prime versions) that can do buffs or do damage or do debuffs or just live and fight.

[TheSteelRat]

I really wanted to give the rework a chance, I did.  It fails horribly and Bladestorm is WORSE then before.

I did yesterday's sortie 2.  Uranus Eximus exterminate, with a more balanced build.  THe problem is Smoke screen has horrible duration to start with and it give it more duration you have to sacrifice efficiency due to the mod Fleeting expertise.  Which leads to needing Arcane trickery, Shade, Huras, and Naramon Shadowstep to give you survivability.  About the only good thing about the rework is smokescreen is easier to cast.

With ash I use a fast attack Rakata Dark Dagger (Primed fury, Quickening) and I noticed the Blade storm animations seemed quicker then before.

My strategy for the mission was to use smoke screen, Fatal Teleport into a crowd of mobs, perform a finisher, then press 4 and spin around, and press 4 again.... then wait for the animations to end.  A few times I ran out of Energy cause I marked too many.  There is really no good way to make sure you only mark things once... and too often i would be marking things 2 or 3 times... wasted energy... and fewer targets marked.  And i still do not see why the enemies bodies need to disitigrate, since bladestorm does not count as stealth finishers

My suggestions as someone who DOES play ash, and wants to make the rework, work

1. increase the duration of smoke screen
2. Reduce the cost of bladestorm marking.
3. while in bladestorm marking mode, have enemies highlighted, and start a 2/sec energy drain while it is "Channeled" to offset the lower marking costs.
4. have teleport automatically perform a finisher.
5. Bladestrom counts as a stealth finisher kill.
6. get rid of the stupid animations, and allow for the player to play while his clones go on a killing spree

 

[S0V3REiGN]

39 minutes ago, Death_Master_ said:

Right now ash is so useless that often i spend more time than i wish reviving dead Ashes on defence missions... while actually me(as melee Nekros) and Mirage doing above 80% of total damage :(

And after big testing of the rework I do not wish anymore to play Ash until a normal rework happens.

There are 29 more useful frames(not counting prime versions) that can do buffs or do damage or do debuffs or just live and fight.

This is what I have been saying all along, before the rework, but people were too focused on getting the bladestorm nerf. Ash never had anything really useful outside of bladestorm. Once they killed off BS, ash basically became useless to a team. His abilities are all too focused and they are too slow at killing anything, this is the biggest problem. Some of the augments help like removing armor or being able to cover + fatal juggernauts or smoke screen a guy for like 15 seconds but these are again the cliche "mods fixing abilities."

I still love ash, always will but I can't bring him to stuff like excavations anymore, he is a liability. You will never see someone in recruit chat write "H ----- LF Ash" because he brings nothing to a team, nothing that other warframes can't do better.

Edited November 29, 2016 by S0V3REiGN

[Robert_Cop_2]

4 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

This is what I have been saying all along, before the rework, but people were too focused on getting the bladestorm nerf. Ash never had anything really useful outside of bladestorm. Once they killed off BS, ash basically became useless to a team. His abilities are all too focused and they are too slow at killing anything, this is the biggest problem. Some of the augments help like removing armor or being able to cover + fatal juggernauts or smoke screen a guy for like 15 seconds but these are again the cliche "mods fixing abilities."

I still love ash, always will but I can't bring him to stuff like excavations anymore, he is a liability. You will never see someone in recruit chat write "H ----- LF Ash" because he brings nothing to a team, nothing that other warframes can't do better.

"BUT HE'S SO MUCH FUN TO PLAY NOW  plus the deluxe skin looks so cool!"

Before my thread ended up here as a post that was the response, sadly we are a minority and no one will hear us. This thread will be archived at some point and Ash wil end up being one of the less used frame in the game

[(XBOX)Oussii]

5 hours ago, Soridian said:

Unsure if sarcasm considering the original quote or serious.....if the latter, this sort of comment isn't really helpful. If not... end with /s!

For In-game examples, I've been using the new ash rework on tycho runs on lua:

Iv had no issues with kill steals on marked targets as iv been cherry picking those that are out of the way or high priority targets like bursa's.

Energy costs are fine, I run with 125 efficiency and zenurik, more than manage-able.

Rework pairs brilliantly with a mellee focused load out but I'm also using soma prime for mob clearing  but I'm still marking and using Bladestorm for the ones who went behind cover or just awkward to hit.

Beetween teleport, smoke bomb and Bladestorm to help maintain high combo counter and some extra easy to do damage + slash procs, I'm generally making most of the sentient kills without taking too much damage. 

I think the new ash requires a bit of  change to gameplay as its not really worth going into a room stealthed and Marking everyone. Energy costs seem to try to dissuade that play style and seem best used as a hit and run style or targeting mobs off to the side or coming up in the distance to control the flow. Personally, I find ash a more fast paced frame now as I'm not constantly utilising the one skill. I don't think he's perfect and there's been some good examples of how to make his skill set flow better such shuriken being better tied/Bladestorm animation changes/ways to cancel marks talk but overall i don't see how people can describe him as ruined.

 

Lua is a child mission, i can do it with melee equipped only

Go try it on sortie 3 in survivor with eximus stonghold, then let me know pls

i cannot argue a lot, till i get the rework on Xbox. but i got enough of feedback from what i read so far on this forum, and a little of feedback from my friends on PC

[S0V3REiGN]

1 minute ago, Robert_Cop_2 said:

"BUT HE'S SO MUCH FUN TO PLAY NOW  plus the deluxe skin looks so cool!"

Before my thread ended up here as a post that was the response, sadly we are a minority and no one will hear us. This thread will be archived at some point and Ash wil end up being one of the less used frame in the game

These threads are all for show, I honestly don't take them too seriously. Just look at the Mag rework thread or the Saryn one or Nekros one, dozens upon dozens of pages of people giving feedback (and complaining) yet nothing has come out of those threads. Not one follow up rework or touch up after a rework. I think only mesa has been buffed and hers wasn't even a real rework.

[DatDarkOne]

6 minutes ago, Robert_Cop_2 said:

"BUT HE'S SO MUCH FUN TO PLAY NOW  plus the deluxe skin looks so cool!"

This is how I feel about it also. 

1 minute ago, S0V3REiGN said:

These threads are all for show, I honestly don't take them too seriously. Just look at the Mag rework thread or the Saryn one or Nekros one, dozens upon dozens of pages of people giving feedback (and complaining) yet nothing has come out of those threads. Not one follow up rework or touch up after a rework. I think only mesa has been buffed and hers wasn't even a real rework.

I noticed this also.  :D

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

Ok, finally time I posted in here too since this is the proper place to give feedback on all this.

Bladestorm

There are things about it I love, and things I do not.

Do not like

• Higher Energy Cost. Too high. 10 enemies is 150 energy. I play with streamline, and if Smoke Screen is on as well, 10 enemies still cost 70 energy. This is like the old Bladestorm, but for less targets. Compensate with higher damage.
• Time it takes to mark targets a second and third time sometimes feel unresponsive.
• Manual targeting seems a little buggy I think. Sometimes I need to properly target enemies one by one aiming at them, sometimes the targeting is a little wider and it picks up more than one enemy. The second, I assume is the bug. If so, make it the standard, because I actually appreciate being able to have a wider targeting range.
• Cannot use the skill for survivability anymore (that is, to replenish shields) as it is less responsive and takes more time

Do like

• The shadow effect (a small thing and just eye candy, sure) is awesome.
• Being able to mark targets, get to a safe place, and then strike them. Adds to a different style of strategy and quite ninja like.
• Like how you can at least now be in marking mode all the time. Consumes energy, sure, but manageable in a way. Killing enemies off gives that energy back.
• Targets are not invulnerable anymore. I have no idea what people are talking about, I have activated Blade Storm plenty of times now and friends kill off targets I was already locked on to kill. And I have done it to them as well. When this happens, energy is also refunded.
• Energy replenish whilst marking enemies (will explain later why this is good imo)

With a Rage mod, all my energy concerns are done and over with. There are things about the skill that I like and things I do not, end of the day however I am now enjoying the stealth assassin take even more. Sure, the damage dealing of it is now less efficient with less targets and longer marking times, but I barely ever used this skill to "press 4 and win" as so many people apparently are complaining Ash players do. For starters, you can't win like that, not even in the old model, at late game. It simply does not kill enemies off it is not strong enough. So what "press 4 and win" people are talking about I'll never know.

Lastly, if invulnerability is still present (I didn't notice it) then even better. Otherwise Ash would indeed be completely useless. Added to the time taken to mark enemies, having the ones marked for the kill after starting BS also killed off is completely pointless when playing with say perhaps trolls or whatever have you. This is how it is now, I can kill off marked targets during a team mates blade storm, and in fact make an effort to fight some place else when I see them marking enemies for the kill. Trolls however can exploit this but whatever. That can happen with anything.

Teleport

I never had a complaint with this, now even less so. And it works better with the new targeting. It does not target to everything, but I hardly see a point why it should. I can now however, which was the only thing I wanted to do, TP onto flying enemies. No, I do not want DE to get rid of the finisher animations. I love them and they one shot bigger enemies in late game missions too when I need it. In fact, I have even added Fatal Teleport on my build for a while now, so I actually am going for finisher kills even more on teleport (they are also faster and more responsive with Fatal Teleport).

I also use teleport sometimes to the point of spamming it. Always have. Since I play melee focused as Ash should mostly be played. Meaning TP is very important for closing in on enemies and taking them down with melee.

Smoke Screen

Loved this skill to death. It is not meant to keep you cloaked for a long time, because that is not the point to Ash. Ash is a stealth assassin, not just stealth. We have Loki for that and Ivara. Even trying to outdo other more stealth/spy oriented frames is pointless. I can simply play with the others if I want to be always invisible.

Smoke Screen has a different use and purpose. Stunning enemies for that 1 second, and relocation, survival, and added melee damage. With Ashes passive, he is a lethal weapon that should be used on the go. That is how Smoke Screen works. Now, it has added functionality with the Blade Storm. This is great. And, it can be finally cast on the run and in the air making it a proper offensive tool.

Love the rework on this too. No, I do not want DE to make it able to cast it before it ends. That is overkill. Seriously overkill. I find the skill so good I always used it a lot, spammed it as much as Teleport, and now it is even better. Anything more is like being in a constant stealth mode and constant stun mode whenever you want. Ancient tries to grapple? Smoke Screen, the again smoke screen, then once more smoke screen.... overpowered much? Its fine the way it is.

 

Shuriken

Finding that there wasn't something added to this skill is not a really bad thing, as Ash would of probably been way too useful. Shurikens are helpful when going full melee, and if you want to waste a mod slot for it you can add the armour reduction mod too to make them more useful. But at this point, Ash is already become quite for veteran play, adding more use of this skill too would make him even more so I think.

I always used Ash in a Veteran manner. What I mean by this, is utilising all skills at hand. Shuriken was the least utilised skill, and it should be so in my opinion for here and there, it is the first skill. Not useless, not too important either.

 

HOW I PLAY THE NEW ASH

I have been utilising Ash and all his skills for years now, and in fact most Ash players do. I don't understand why people say otherwise. Are we going to take new players that don't know the game well as a frame of reference? If so, we should do it for all frames that are "press button to win". Hardly the case.

I am finding that this new build makes even more use of Smoke Screen now, teleport just as much, and probably reduced Blade Storm use a little. The style catered for is much more offensive stealth.

I run a rage and life strike build.

With the new Blade Storm I can be constantly marking targets, not because I am to use Blade Storm, but to have it ready when I want. With rage I can life steal constantly, and I can use Bladestorm pretty much for free in late game content. By the time I mark targets, (with streamline too) it makes no difference if I done it in Smoke Screen or not, I am still back to full energy in mere seconds with Rage. So although the energy cost is a lot, indeed, there is a way around it, and I actually have even been able to mark a lot of targets now with BS and use it for free of any cost.

 

In a team, again Smoke Screen is perfect for breaking fire for a while, for reviving team mates, and teleport is the fastest way to get to a downed team mate to revive them. I don't dish out as much damage anymore with my Blade Storm, but like I said, I never cared much for that anyway. Where damage is concerned, I can do a lot more with a good primary weapon on me, as can my team mates, so we will hardly miss it. When needed though, it is there regardless.

Ash has with all this now become a lot more mobile as well. And the fact that I can use Blade Storm for a single target now is awesome. I don't need to waste 70 (or 100) energy to perform it for two targets I want to off in a Spy Mission for example. I can now do it for just 30, 20, or 14 energy (depending on build and smoke screen). Last match I played yesterday my team mates where downed thrice as many times as me, if not more. They had all around 3-5 revives done to team mates each, and I was at 11-15 revives. I'd say Ash has remained true to his character as always, and I am loving this rework. Working around some disadvantages makes those disadvantages in fact, advantages. The new marking system as I said can be utilised in a manner that now gives you free Blade Storms, and can be used for smaller targets too. It simply needs to be a little more powerful, that is all.

 

And yes, I did play him enough. I see a lot of comments in here state that those that are ok with the rework don't play with Ash or don't know how to. Hardly the case. I played him enough that I even added a new forma on him and ranked him to 30 again after the rework. I was reigning terror on my enemy with a rank 10 Ash vs rank 40 enemies with only half my mods installed and efficiency dropped so low. I hardly find any reason for someone to say he is useless. I found nothing useless about him at all.

 

Great work DE. Hope you don't rework this again. Ash is not meant to be the "I'ma kill off the entire map" kind of character, so those asking for such a "buff" should really play some other frame. You can't have it all. He has stealth, he has a small stun, he has relocation, and he has an ok crowd control. He has bleeding passive and is one of the best melee only characters in the game. He can be used in spy missions too (not as easy as some other frames, but not completely useless as all non-stealth frames either.)

I main Ash, but anything more than all this and its the other frames we should end up deleting. He is more than good enough. Mass cc damage is not his purpose, and he can still utilise large cc tactics in defence and survival missions or wherever there are large groups of enemies.

 

Simply put, he is awesome. His new skin is also wicked. Can't wait to get my hands on it.

[wtrmlnjuc]

Bladestorm overall is more fun, but it's in this rework that the rest of Ash's abilities' old design flaws get shown. Damage seems to be decreased quite a bit (buff please) and energy costs are too high to warrant high usage of abilities, which I feel like Ash - the resident Action-Movie-Hero-Ninja-Assassin - should promote. Shuriken shouldn't cost 25 energy (it's a shuriken...), Teleport shouldn't cost 75 energy. Smokescreen, if one wants to deploy it more, needs to cost less than the twice-as-long passive stealth available in Loki's toolset.

The problem with Ash's playstyle now is that it seems to want to promote fast-moving and hard-hitting gameplay, but it's never done so because the energy pool keeps getting drained so quickly. With reduced effectiveness, it feels even more frustrating.

[HazaRD-WARRIOR]

1 minute ago, wtrmlnjuc said:

Bladestorm overall is more fun, but it's in this rework that the rest of Ash's abilities' old design flaws get shown. Damage seems to be decreased quite a bit (buff please) and energy costs are too high to warrant high usage of abilities, which I feel like Ash - the resident Action-Movie-Hero-Ninja-Assassin - should promote. Shuriken shouldn't cost 25 energy (it's a shuriken...), Teleport shouldn't cost 75 energy. Smokescreen, if one wants to deploy it more, needs to cost less than the twice-as-long passive stealth available in Loki's toolset.

The problem with Ash's playstyle now is that it seems to want to promote fast-moving and hard-hitting gameplay, but it's never done so because the energy pool keeps getting drained so quickly. With reduced effectiveness, it feels even more frustrating.

Rage mod, you will have all the energy you ever needed. Works perfect for Ash because he has high health as well. Life Strike, makes him properly use his melee and truly durable. If I am in attacking range, they simply cannot kill me, EVER, I have infinite energy as they strike me, and infinite health as I strike them.

His stealth actually costs as much as Loki. In fact, Loki per second costs a little more. The duration is more on Loki, but so is the energy cost I don't know if you noticed this.

Teleport - Add Fatal Teleport to it. It gives you back energy for each kill. I can use teleport all day long with this, add Rage in there as well? And well there is no reason at all to complain about its cost. Also, 75 energy? Playing any frame that utilises a lot of skills without energy reduction mods is not the way to play them. No matter what frame we talk about. The very least you should have on Ash is Streamline, and in my opinion Flow as well. Again, with rage, I have a 300 energy pool almost all the time. I run into no energy problems whatsoever.

 

Finisher damage mods added to weapons are also meant to cater to Ash and his playstyle. I would say Ash is a very veteran frame, since he needs a lot of build synergy to properly take advantage of. And I don't even use the melee aura that everyone uses, which makes him even more lethal. Fury also adds to bladestorm speed. Generally speaking, he is a frame you need to put a lot of thought into for making him work properly. The payoff is awesome.

People also downplay stealth during combat so much. Guys, you are going INVISIBLE. Seriously, its an overpowered mechanic on its own, always has been, in every game that ever had it. Which makes Ash even more useful. Making him also the demon of Crowd Control is just way too much in my opinion. That is what we have other frames in the game for.

 

Ash also works great as a team support. Everyone keeps saying he is not a team player, but in fact no-one plays him as such to begin with. I do more revives than anyone in my team, all the time, and die less as well. Again, smoke screen? Its pretty much a "get out of jail for free" card everytime you use it o.O

And teleporting to team mates to revive them is always, the fastest way to it. It needs more skill, sure, and that is why Ash shines in my opinion. Making him easier to use as well would be I think overkill for this offensive stealth character. And I like it that he needs more veteran play to be utilised. His skills are far from flawed. They are perfect in my opinion. Fast relocation, good escape, good crowd control (not perfect).

 

In fact, people that are now forced to use his other skills more should start to appreciate him more imo. Whilst finding builds to make him work wonders is as end game as it gets. Anything less and he becomes a newbie frame. And that is something I do not want for Ash.

[.Tabris]

@HazaRD-WARRIOR, I agree completely. Been playing like this too, on all sorts os missions.

Also, as @wtrmlnjuc and many others have suggested, the abilities cost are too demanding. Maybe if they lowered them, we can see more streamlined play with this new tweaked Ash (I can hardly consider this version a "Rework").

I do hope Devs take a look and the constructive criticism in this thread. Ash is far from unplayable, but it can be fine-tuned no doubt ...  

[Robert_Cop_2]

24 minutes ago, HazaRD-WARRIOR said:

Great work DE. Hope you don't rework this again. Ash is not meant to be the "I'ma kill off the entire map" kind of character, so those asking for such a "buff" should really play some other frame. You can't have it all. He has stealth, he has a small stun, he has relocation, and he has an ok crowd control. He has bleeding passive and is one of the best melee only characters in the game. He can be used in spy missions too (not as easy as some other frames, but not completely useless as all non-stealth frames either.)

I main Ash, but anything more than all this and its the other frames we should end up deleting. He is more than good enough. Mass cc damage is not his purpose, and he can still utilise large cc tactics in defence and survival missions or wherever there are large groups of enemies.

 

Simply put, he is awesome. His new skin is also wicked. Can't wait to get my hands on it.

He's not good for damage, he's outclassed for stealth by Ivara and Loki and even by non-stealth frames like Limbo (bye bye lasers) and Nova/Nezha (better teleport and speed) what exactly is new Ash main selling feature? You are right, I'm playing other frames nowadays simply beacuse they are better than him.

[CTanGod]

Ash was designed with one goal in mind and that was to do damage, now he can't do that efficiently anymore, the only way left to play him is Shuriken spam because in any other way he is outclassed. Good job community, let's murder all the frames now because that will make the game better! /s

[Callback]

Bladestorm was never OP, just really annoying making everything invincible.

 

I always told Rathuum people to stop using it and just do CL FTs for faster kills and LESS GETTING YOUR ALLIES MURDERED BY INVINCIBLE MOBS.  Nobody listened, thinking somehow they were doing enough damage to keep up.  They weren't.  CL FT killed way faster.

 

This version seems like a massive nerf for no real reason.

[Dragazer]

21 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

Ash was designed with one goal in mind and that was to do damage, now he can't do that efficiently anymore, the only way left to play him is Shuriken spam because in any other way he is outclassed. Good job community, let's murder all the frames now because that will make the game better! /s

lol ikr what a joke, the only thing Ash is good at can now be done by other frames with proper weapons without needing massive amounts of energy 

[mon4rch]

I dont like new 0energystorm 

[mon4rch]

 i hate new blade0energy3killsstorm

[Aridum]

Ok, I just finished using Ash... I think he just gonna be my fashion frame.

He's a ninja. Ninjas are silent and fast, why am I spending 2 minutes to set up an ability. Have you ever heard of a 2-minute ability set-up!?

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

Even though I haven't played the rework yet, I did my research on how PC players feel about it and my conclusion is that it doesn't fix anything but instead add more problems to the list for bladestorm. Which is SUPER disappointing since I was really excited for an ash change. I mean your telling me DE did a year worth of work and ideas to change bladestorm only for them to come up with this crap. seriously this rework is something you expect a mastery rank 2 player who never played ash before to think of this rework. You can even tell that they put more effort in the koga skin then they did the actual rework. I guess they expected the community to be blinded by the shiny light reflecting off the sexy koga skin too see that they turned ash into a failure of a damage frame. I still love ash tho...

Edited November 29, 2016 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[(XBOX)destructo nl]

First post ever on the forums, so please bear with me.
Regarding the rework of the ash blade storm ability:

I'm not going to give my opinion on the rework since i haven't tested it out yet,
however i thought you guys (DE) would just make it like hydroid with an area of effect
that would be filled with smoke (perfect style for ash)
with a bleeding proc over time (perfect for his passive)

but i will give all my hate and or love when i have played the rework of ash.

:3

 

[Nazrethim]

If anything, they could reduce the revisited bladestorm cost from 15 (10) to 10 (5) and call it a day.

[Fast_98]

Honestly I tried to use it stealthy and carefully placeed myself at locations to target enemies.... took me to 1 minute to realise that the best way to use is tap 4 shake the mouse like a madman and tap 4 again to kill. The rework is just as cheesy as Ash old bladestorm and it fails because fix none of ash issue (vomit cam, not team friendly, noob frame, etc). Honestly in my opinion his 4 should be scrapped and his other skill should be ironed out more.