Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

A wise gamer once said "The best Cc is death" :P No can harm when no alive.

And complex is somewhat relative as he builds on many simple basics like combo, crit and finishers.

That you can build him up to a certain stage by using complex means only speaks for him is my take on this.

Thats a good point. i just feel Bladestorm is just boring. But i do see your point.

Edited April 26, 2017 by The_Sharp_Demonologist

[MudShadow]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Benjamin_Draco said:

I don't even use seeking shuriken on my stealth Ash build, it's damage is pretty poor in my opinion.

Well it's used mainly for the armour strip.100% armour strip with the mod turns even the toughest enemies in the game into a pinata.

Edited April 26, 2017 by MudShadow

[(PSN)Flatulent_Draco]

1 minute ago, MudShadow said:

Well it's used mainly for the armour strip. 100% armour strip with the mod turns even the toughest enemies in the game into a pinata.

Oh yeah forgot about that

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

It has been answered already: That something works doesn't mean it's right.

Also, you should totally use Ash in Conclave and tell me if the current ability mechanics fly there. Shuriken is useless, so are Teleport and Blade Storm. Smoke Screen  has it's utility in "makes you bulletjump better for 4s". His passive is also Nikana-only for some unknown reason.

Problem is, none of the abilities can be buffed in any meaningful way without them becoming broken. Giving Ash and ACTUAL rework is the only path.

Also, NO FRAME should be balanced around outside effects, you can't have a Trinity EV, or Zenurik, or forced max efficiency or Arcane Energize or Naramon all the freakin time. The frame must work on it's own.

Yeah, like forced max efficiency/zenurik to make BS not drain more energy than the warframe can have. There is a simple way: Duration based Stance Ultimate that relies on ability and melee combos to clear crowds. That's far superior to Exalted Spam, Hyspam and even Primal Spam. Just look at the comments defending current iteration of Ash: All focus on super efficiency shuriken spam to strip armor, have cheap teleport or make blade storm actually affordable. I advice both of you to play Ash at 100% base power stats, and see if he is as good as you claim to be.

 

If you mod ash property and not spam bladestorm you wouldn't have to worry so much about your energy. Also ash is still pretty effective without mods, you do need to worry about energy, but lack of energy is a problem for a lot of other frames with no mods. Also, I'm 80% sure people will just spam bladestorm's basic combo just like other exalted abilities, because Warframe is about being quick, so do you really think people are just going to try to memorize and try to pull off all of bladestorm's combos when their getting shot at by hordes of enemies?

[Nazrethim]

40 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

. Also, I'm 80% sure people will just spam bladestorm's basic combo just like other exalted abilities, because Warframe is about being quick, so do you really think people are just going to try to memorize and try to pull off all of bladestorm's combos when their getting shot at by hordes of enemies?

And that's the beauty of recent Stance ultimate suggestions for Blade Storm: they all make the basic E-spam average or downright sh*tty. While making the other combos superb and overflowing with offensive potential.

It all depends on implementation, current stance ultimates have stupidly long combos that nobody ever uses because the basic swing is better. Now make the combos short and streamlined (EEE, EEpauseEE, Ermb+EE) and make the basic combo weak to the point of near uselessness but the other combos powerful enough to wipe the floor of any foe and presto. Espam to the garbage.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

6 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

And that's the beauty of recent Stance ultimate suggestions for Blade Storm: they all make the basic E-spam average or downright sh*tty. While making the other combos superb and overflowing with offensive potential.

It all depends on implementation, current stance ultimates have stupidly long combos that nobody ever uses because the basic swing is better. Now make the combos short and streamlined (EEE, EEpauseEE, Ermb+EE) and make the basic combo weak to the point of near uselessness but the other combos powerful enough to wipe the floor of any foe and presto. Espam to the garbage.

actually that was one of my worries while developing Ash's moves. I made sure they where simple enough that you can pull them off mid combat but also each of them has a sort of role. Each of them feel like differen moves with utility, like a fighting game!

 

 

[Carnage2K4]

I'm the opposite, I only bothered actually playing ash after the rework as it actually made it fun, I hate one key frames, I need to be doing stuff else I get bored...

Edited April 27, 2017 by Carnage2K4

[(PSN)psycofang]

4 hours ago, MudShadow said:

Well it's used mainly for the armour strip.100% armour strip with the mod turns even the toughest enemies in the game into a pinata.

That and since it pierces through a large number of targets means everyone dies from a built BS.

[Viscerataunt]

Ash's bladestorm is devastating at high levels, it even takes down sentients without much effort and looks cool doing it. I don't understand the point of this post, is it because there are other abilities that damage quicker or something? If anything I wish that natural talent allowed for faster target marking but other than that it's probably one of the best abilities to use vs. high level enemies.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, The_Sharp_Demonologist said:

actually that was one of my worries while developing Ash's moves. I made sure they where simple enough that you can pull them off mid combat but also each of them has a sort of role. Each of them feel like differen moves with utility, like a fighting game!

Indeed, the reason why all current stance ultimates feel exactly the same is because the combos are impractical and generally not worth using, so people fall into Espam or Slidespam macros. Hence why Blade Storm Stance, as a concept, needs to be less about brute force and more about finesse, that alone would make it stand out from the rest.

It's all in how it's implemented.

[Nazrethim]

2 minutes ago, Viscerataunt said:

Ash's bladestorm is devastating at high levels, it even takes down sentients without much effort and looks cool doing it. I don't understand the point of this post, is it because there are other abilities that damage quicker or something? If anything I wish that natural talent allowed for faster target marking but other than that it's probably one of the best abilities to use vs. high level enemies.

No, it's because Ash had many issues that weren't actually adressed with the "revisit" and worse, created more issues. Do I have to make a list about them?

[Viscerataunt]

2 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

No, it's because Ash had many issues that weren't actually adressed with the "revisit" and worse, created more issues. Do I have to make a list about them?

Title says bladestorm is boring not rework/revisit problems weren't addressed. My post was defending bladestorms usefulness.

[Nazrethim]

4 minutes ago, Viscerataunt said:

Title says bladestorm is boring not rework/revisit problems weren't addressed. My post was defending bladestorms usefulness.

It is useful (except in Conclave were is a near useless energy sink). But that doesn't mean it's right. If anything, DE should reduce the energy cost back to old blade storm levels.

For comparison:

Old BS: 18 targets for 100 energy.

Current BS: 15 per target per mark. 18 enemies require 270 energy for single mark or 810 for all 3 marks.

That  is a straight nerf right there. And an unfair one.

[xPhantomStranga]

Am i crazy because i love how ash currently is and find synergy with his abilities?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

I hate Ash's "auto pilot press 4 twice and shake your cursor around the screen rework". Its a awful. Hated it before still hate it now. 

[Nazrethim]

38 minutes ago, xPhantomStranga said:

 find synergy with his abilities?

You mean 'Invisibility' (any) with Blade Storm (that still doesn't make up for the latters ludicrous cost). BS and Teleport flat out overlap (and would be better if they are baked into a single dual-mode ability)

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

1 hour ago, Viscerataunt said:

Ash's bladestorm is devastating at high levels, it even takes down sentients without much effort and looks cool doing it. I don't understand the point of this post, is it because there are other abilities that damage quicker or something? If anything I wish that natural talent allowed for faster target marking but other than that it's probably one of the best abilities to use vs. high level enemies.

Yes bladestorm can be very powerful, I just find it to be a boring ability, mostly due to the annoying cutscenes. I'm hoping for it to have some more interactivity, not just press 4, move mouse or controller around wildly, then go to the bathroom as you're put into cutscene after cutscene. My issue with Ash isn't about his strength as a frame, it's how painful it is to use his 4th ability, and how he could be a lot more enjoyable to play.

 

1 hour ago, xPhantomStranga said:

Am i crazy because i love how ash currently is and find synergy with his abilities?

You're definitely not crazy, I enjoy Ash's other three skills, I just think the execution of his 4th is clunky and the payoff is powerful, but insanely boring.

[(PSN)LastDoomKnight]

2 hours ago, Carnage2K4 said:

I'm the opposite, I only bothered actually playing ash after the rework as it actually made it fun, I hate one key frames, I need to be doing stuff else I get bored...

Not sure if I read this correctly, because Ash, if using bladestorm, is basically a one key frame, with no interactivity after the abilities activated. I think his other abilities are fine though, could use a few buffs, but fine overall.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

19 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

You mean 'Invisibility' (any) with Blade Storm (that still doesn't make up for the latters ludicrous cost). BS and Teleport flat out overlap (and would be better if they are baked into a single dual-mode ability)

There's also Bladestorm giving, benefiting from and maintaining combo from afar

(just noticed recently that it was raised to 2-3 combo digids per enemy)

Teleport catapulting you in melee range

Smokescreen giving and reseting stealth multipliers 

And shuriken working perfectly fine with melee equipped.

 

There's also this advanced synergy where seeking shuriken is a rather nice buff to guns too, where BS only benefits from fury, what makes Maiming Strike builds rather desireable, where BS and relentless are able to fully fill up your combo counter - what makes him the only frame that's able to benefit from the body count+blood rush+Maiming strike combo while wielding melee offhand.

They don't really overlap at the point where both abilitys serve a different purpose. One raising combo the other teleporting you in melee range to use the combo, all of these 3 factors -melee crits, teleport crits and finisher and bs finiaher- making invisibility tools possible.

He sure aint got no "press 2 then 3 then 4" kinda synergy but his kit synergizes excellent with any kind of melee while maintaining a individuall purpose for his abilitys...isn't that somewhat of a desired ideal when it comes to synergy?

[IceColdHawk]

12 hours ago, MudShadow said:

I think after the nerf the only decent build ASH has is duration/efficiency based stealth+seeking shuriken. And that's the problem with ASH and many other Warframes. They have no synergy between their four abilities, which means players end up modding for one or two abilities. And spamming one or two moves (and that's it). 

^

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Nobody mentions it. But current Blade Storm costs 200 to 600% more energy per enemy than pre-rework, forcing pretty much everyone into Zenurik, Arcane Energize or max Efficiency.

^ These two edgelords (wink) get it. All the bladestorm nerf has done is make people appreciate the other methods on how to play ash. Which is not a bad thing ACTUALLY but, bladestorm itself is so ineffective and costly now, you better just go into invis and smack enemies with your melee which deals not only more damage and is quicker but also saves you all your energy. At least the object teleporting and smoke screen castable in air and while running is appreciated.

Edited April 27, 2017 by IceColdHawk

[Nazrethim]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

There's also Bladestorm giving, benefiting from and maintaining combo from afar

(just noticed recently that it was raised to 2-3 combo digids per enemy)

Teleport catapulting you in melee range

Smokescreen giving and reseting stealth multipliers 

And shuriken working perfectly fine with melee equipped.

Those are all nice things, but those aren't synergy, the abilities don't improve each other or interact in any way, what's more, Teleport often overlaps with BS, specially if you factor in Fatal Teleport. Also Blade Storm always had 2-3 hits per enemy, except that before the clone stabs also counted, which meant Blade Storm got you a ludicrous amount of hits in a short time. Current BS clones don't contribute to your combo counter.

27 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

There's also this advanced synergy where seeking shuriken is a rather nice buff to guns too, where BS only benefits from fury, what makes Maiming Strike builds rather desireable, where BS and relentless are able to fully fill up your combo counter - what makes him the only frame that's able to benefit from the body count+blood rush+Maiming strike combo while wielding melee offhand.

Maiming Strike builds are centered around Berserker, not Fury, and Berserker doesn't affect Bladestorm, neither Relentless Assault. As I said before, the fact that now you need to eat the whole enemy per enemy cutscene means BS is slower in execution than it's previous incarnation, which means slower combo counter raising.

27 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

They don't really overlap at the point where both abilitys serve a different purpose. One raising combo the other teleporting you in melee range to use the combo, all of these 3 factors -melee crits, teleport crits and finisher and bs finiaher- making invisibility tools possible.

Both are used to dispatch enemies, the only difference is how they deal the damage (Melee weapon or Ethereal Blades) and that one returns you to the original casting position. Essentially Blade Storm and (Fatal) Teleport serve the same function, one being manual enemy per enemy while the other is cutscene automode. Both being combined into a single dual function ability would do exactly the same and free the ultimate slot for a Stance one that actually brings interactivity while making the cutscene an optional feature. Melee crits have nothing to do here because Ash doesn't buff critical damage or chance in any way.

27 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

He sure aint got no "press 2 then 3 then 4" kinda synergy but his kit synergizes excellent with any kind of melee while maintaining a individuall purpose for his abilitys...isn't that somewhat of a desired ideal when it comes to synergy?

Let's see:

Shuriken: kill enemies, doubles as single/dual armor stripping, rather unreliable as it tracks whatever it wants and doesn't have punch trough.

Smoke Screen: short invisibility with a near pointless stagger. Augment is very inconvenient and inpractical but somewhat useful. Buffs melee damage as long as you don't bump into an enemy.

Teleport: kill a dude and get in the fray or alternatively and rng tile generation helps you, teleport to an object to outmaneuver enemies for some unspecified reason. Fatal Teleport makes it do what it should by default and restores half the cost on kill.

Blade Storm: kill a bunch of dudes for a ludicrous amount of energy, kinda does the same thing as Fatal Teleport except this one gives you the chance of setting up a 10-20s cutscene instead killing dudes one by one.

 

Now what if:

Shuriken was dual mode ability: non-seeking super damage shuriken with punch trough or barrage of smaller seeking shurikens to all marked targets?

Smoke Screen actually created a cloud of smoke that gave invisibility for ash for extended periods while inside and lingering invisbility outside of it, while CC'ing enemies inside it and presumably opening them for Finishers. Smoke Shadow causing allies in the cloud to gain invisbility too.

Teleport was a dual mode ability: Tap to teleport to location you are aiming and releasing a radial stagger with Finisher opening or, by holding for 1s all marked enemies (marking mode being an Aimglide passive with no energy cost) are attacked by chaining teleports automatically, essentially starting current Blade Storm.

Blade Storm was actually a stance ultimate that acted as Ash's supermode, with multiple-kill Finisher attacks (therefore synergy with both SS and TP) and focusing on ability or melee combos to deal outrageous damage without being E or Slide spam like the other stance ultimates. How? Make Slide attack and basic combo mediocre but pause combo open for FInishers (which I said would kill multiple targets if they are close enough) and rmb combo to quickly cover ground via vicious dashes.

All of these could also be buffed accordingly in Conclave to not be the useless sh^t Ash has for abilities now without actually becoming broken.

 

See? I didn't even removed current BS from that rework idea, just eliminated stupid overlap and improved on every ability. It's not rocket science.

[Hypernaut1]

3 hours ago, xPhantomStranga said:

Am i crazy because i love how ash currently is and find synergy with his abilities?

no, you're not. Ash is fine as is, and was improved on. BS is his signature ability, if you dont like it at all....then you may as well play a different frame. Thats like me complaining about Hydroids tentacles, or Mesa's Peacemaker.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

 

Let's see:

 

 

Ahm, first off: Berserker expires pretty darn fast. It is possible to acchieve higher attack speed using Berserker over prime fury but that's really not recommendet if you're not planning to attack more then necessary.

In the case of ash, where bladestorming would definitly make it expire regardless: No. Just, no. Bs allowing Berserker would be pointless and ash performs at his best as he is.

 

And how about this:

You're carrying around a Viral Ignis Wraith and attack->Shuriken spam doesn't interrupt it while you are able to mark enemys with Bladestorm all around you. You unleast Bladestorm -> Viral affected enemys are a sure kill for the finisher damage, your combo counter rises. Incomming wave across the map -> teleport, you're repositioned and in melee range -> you slide, allready having a at least 2x multiplier affecting your melee. Enemys approaching are allready marked as you fire vital proccs in theyr faces.

 

A stance on the other side....when was the last time you've seen anyone playing a stance? Seriously...They're straight inferior to just abilitys and melee. And what's the chance for it to keep the finisher damage?.. You got 3 rarely played frames that do use stances to choose from if you fancy it tho. Why not just playing them? Don't tell me they're boring or weak to you...

Edited April 27, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

4 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Indeed, the reason why all current stance ultimates feel exactly the same is because the combos are impractical and generally not worth using, so people fall into Espam or Slidespam macros. Hence why Blade Storm Stance, as a concept, needs to be less about brute force and more about finesse, that alone would make it stand out from the rest.

It's all in how it's implemented.

I mean its a bloddy energy sword you can do whatever you want with it. Like i dunno one of the combos fire a short range burst of energy that deals damage and pushes enemies aside. Or maybe the charge attack fire a lazor. Why? Space Ninja with energy sword thats why.

[Carnage2K4]

3 hours ago, (PS4)LastDoomKnight said:

Not sure if I read this correctly, because Ash, if using bladestorm, is basically a one key frame, with no interactivity after the abilities activated. I think his other abilities are fine though, could use a few buffs, but fine overall.

He was 1 key before the rework, he's not now... frankly if you're not using 2 and 3 as well as 4 when playing him now, you're not playing ash well.