Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

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10 minutes ago, SupremeDutchGamer said:

i get your point of it no longer being a panic button. but what i dont get is you saying its less fun. i dont realy know if it is more fun for everyone playing ash. i enjoy it a lot myself and it made me love ash again. but the ppl that get more fun due to the rework are the poor souls who had to sit through missions not being able to do anything but pick up loot due to some ashhole spamming bladestorm. this same complaint is also true for other things like embers WoF and the simulors.

a great new panic button i found is to press 2. as it no longer locks you in place while casting. its also a smart idea to build a little more for duration with the new bladestorm because marking costs 33% less when invisible. 

 

the main problem with this rework imo is not that its bad or something. its that it basically overhauls the way ppl should mod and play ash. so a lot of ppl who know how to play old ash try playing the new the same way they would the old (eg 4 as panic button as an example) which simply doesnt work anymore. as for players like me. who realy liked the concept of ash but got turned off by bladestorms old version. this update was a saviour.

i realy hope you and other actual ash players can eventualy adapt how you play ash to the new abilities

 

although one thing. F*** bladestorm spammers. they can die in a fire.

It is sad to see so much hate. Reading this thread it's hard to believe that the majority of supporters of new blade em.. storm (not storm really) are rather playing ash.

DE perhaps may do a change to match making, options like - no simulor, no ash, no ember, no mirage, no frost, no nova etc - and leave the frames alone to the ones who like it.

BTW 2 is cool now however it is not teleporting you out of the trouble like 4 did. If you find it lame, there are another bunch of 40+ frames, frost for example.

[Varacal]

i said it before when they first demo'd the rework for bladestorm, it did not solve anything, the main problem was watching while ash is killing all the enemies, the problem is still there only now, you pick the enemies for ash to kill, so it only made it more complicated enough to be a lazy button, but it definitely did not fix the problem in the first place

[Pendragon1951]

I think unfortunately the game is and will always be a game of kill as many as you can, IMHO I think the idea was to try to make Bladestorm like Shadows of Mordor, but as I said earlier Warframe is not SOM, Warframe is a fast paced game, it is not a stealth game. There are two things I would like to see changed, instead of having to press 4 again to initiate the kill why can't we just press the fire button when we are in target mode and the second thing why only three targets, why not more?

[Tuxie]

The "Marking" system slows down Ash way too much, and it is just an all around downgrade and a huge nerf.

Besides, to mark enemies you pretty much have to stand still or move slowly, and in a game about parkour space ninjas to slow down game flow is a huge hit on the fun factor. Just a big no no. I hate the rework when I first saw it on devstream, and I hate it even more now that I managed to play it for myself.

In short, the rework makes "Bladestorm" clunky, slow, and all around unfun in general.

[Sauravisus]

My opinion on this rework is that the new Blade Storm is a terrible step backwards.

What was needed was simply to make it so the clones did the killing, while the player still got to run around and kill stuff not tagged by your Blade Storm. It's that simple.
As for his other abilities, Shuriken is the one that desperately needs a rework. It's bland, boring, and mostly useless (like Nyx's Psychic Bullets). Now if it was changed to mark enemies for the new Blade Storm type, it'd be better.

Warframe isn't a stealth game. It's a fast paced run-'n-gun game, where quantity of kills far outranks quality of kills. So the new Blade Storm only really works in solo situations, not with team mates. It will never be able to compete with the steamrolling team mates. You'd have to be ahead of everyone else to even be able to use it properly. On many occasions my friend Blade-Storm (Yes, that's his username, guess what frame he's used since he started?) had enemies get slaughtered by our team mates, including myself, before he could trigger Blade Storm.

[CorrinAvatan]

Okay so I tried the Ash rework, and while I find the changes to his other powers to be pretty good, I'm a bit... meh... on his ult.

Please bear in mind that I'm not an Ash main, hardly played him besides using him to farm focus in old Draco.

I find it very difficult to control how much damage I'm going to do.  Quite often, I was in situations where I was invisible, marking a specific enemy because THAT is who I wanted to take out, but then an enemy sprints across my cursor, and now it's marked, too.  Another thing that seems to happen is that I will want to mark, say, all 12 enemies over there, but the game interprets it as "hey, i wanna mark that ONE guy 3 times, then the one next to him 3 times...".  Seems odd.

I also seem to have no ability to control the order that I kill things in (or if I do, I didn't notice) so using Bladestorm to take out enemies in a specific order to get stealth bonuses doesn't work, apparently?  I never got a stealth bonus, even if I was invisible when I did the attack on a single enemy.

However, frankly, in a big firefight, where I'm huddling in a frost bubble, it seems that the best option I have is to mark, then shake my mouse a bunch, then hope I didn't triple-mark too much.  Especially when you've got a pack of enemies, and you wanted to mark everyone inside of it, but the UI for the new bladestorm only allows you to target the front row?

I'm trying to come to this with an open heart, but this isn't going to make me dust off Ash for really any reason besides seeing how the rework changed him.  The 4 is incredibly finicky now.  I'd prefer a system where (if you can't pick the order things die in, like I think you cant) I hit four, and it creates a zone centered on where my targeting reticle is, and I bladestorm everything inside of it.  Charge me energy per enemy in the zone, I'd be fine with that, and allow allies to kill ones I haven't gotten to.

He's a little bit better as a spy frame, but I'm not sure how this new Bladestorm is better than the old Bladestorm.  If the problem was "press four to watch an animation", now it's "press four and shake your mouse to watch an animation."

 

[Cobramac]

Really sad by the end result of the bladestorm rework. The new blamestorm seems to do a fraction of the damage it did, so basically you mark the  targets so you can dance on them, running this on the same survival I did pre rework he can't kill anything i mark. It's now a completely pointless ultimate.

 

Either do something to allow him to kill his targets or just scrap his 4 and give ash exalted daggers or something. What a rework.... Really sad.

[TheSteelRat]

Maxed arcane trickery or shadow step is better then ash's smoke screen

Fatal teleport augment is better and is about the same energy cost of  Blade storm.

Blade storm still has the stupid killing animation that people hated in the first place and is now hidden behind a stupid "mark the targets instead of killing them" mini game that leaves no corpses.

I am really disappointed this is the best DE could come up with for a rework

Edited November 26, 2016 by -CM-Kinnison

[R34LM]

The only real thing that has changed with Bladestorm was an energy nerf to have to spend energy for each target, which does make true spammers think more about energy efficiency, but there is still prime flow and Trinity. Players will still press four to win, but now they just need to swing their mouse over the entire group.

I find Ash's marking being slower a pointless thing to mention.

1. Mouse swinging isn't hard.

2. If you teammates kill a marked target, you get the energy back anyway, so no waste.

3. Ash is marketed to be a solo frame anyway, given that he has little team synergy and everything he needs to survive on his own.

4. Kill stealing is not a thing to be concerned about in general (as more kills gives no benefit aside from a shiny orange number at the results screen), especially given reason 2.

Damage is right where it needs to be. At a 3x multiplier with no strength mods, I am able to kill or leave barely alive a lvl 100 heavy gunner with three marks.

 

The only thing I really suggest adding is more targets for Teleport. Items with health are actually pretty sparse, and even then we can't teleport to cameras and most resource caches. It wouldn't hurt to add other things like lockers or turret fixtures.

 

Overall, just an energy nerf to Bladestorm, but I find it necessary for those who actually did mindlessly spam it. Those who didn't will likely not be affected by it much.

[ssh83]

Smoke Screen is great.

Blade Storm still take control away from player.  It still do the annoying red marking that trolls other players.  It is still possible to grief players.  It LOSES skillful defensive timing to dodge attack.  It is extremely slow and boring to use.  It cost a sht load of energy.  I'd call this a catastrophic failure.

[Narks-]

As a fan of Ash i feel as if this is how ash should have been reworked

-shuriken works like how bladestorm is now
-teleport to any destination (within a short distance)
- smoke screen needed a duration buff
- Bladestrom should work how it was before the rework but instead of you preforming the kills you send out upto 3 clones and they do the killing. (the mobs would also not be invincible)

this fixes the interactivity problems people had with bladstorm, the making mobs immune problem, this makes teleport and smoke screen actually worth using and it also makes the shuiriken worth using.

[istherelifeonmars]

No, what have you done DE.

Bladestorm is so useless now and with it the hole frame.

The time i need to mark targets i can use to kill enemies with my weapon.

So why to use ash anyore.

ASH to Ashes.

I'm realy not happy with your rework.

Edited November 27, 2016 by isthereliveonmars

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

8 hours ago, RuganirrKarel said:

I`ve thougt that ultimative skill needs to be press-button-and-wonder-you-done. Just cause it`s ULTIMATIVE. Guess I was wrong.

Who is next? Ember? Rhino? hmm... may be Nova? It would be great to Nova check targets for its ult. Especialy at 100+ wave on defence mission where is realy ALOT of targets.

I think is no good to make a check of each target you want to kill. May be more practible can be to check an area of skill usage?

Yes please! I'm dying for an Ember Rework. She's boring af

[-CG-Aurigio]

I find the rework's ability to be slow. Marking enemies in group situations in which people kill as fast as possible makes Ash an unreliable killer and puts him in limbo with comparison to other killer frames like Ember or Saryn. My suggestion is to make his clones do the bladestorm animation to make it faster and ditch the marking mechanic with it being changed to a line of sight mechanic. 

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

3 minutes ago, isthereliveonmars said:

No, what have you done DE.

Baldestorm is so useless now and with it the hole frame.

The time i need to mark targets i can use to kill enemies with my weapon.

So why to use ash anyore.

ASH to Ashes.

I'm realy not happy with your rework.

Baldstorm? You mean Ash kills his enemies by showing his bald spots? Hole? What hole?

[Yaerion]

5 minutes ago, -Slothy- said:

As a fan of Ash i feel as if this is how ash should have been reworked

-shuriken works like how bladestorm is now
-teleport to any destination (within a short distance)
- smoke screen needed a duration buff
- Bladestrom should work how it was before the rework but instead of you preforming the kills you send out upto 3 clones and they do the killing. (the mobs would also not be invincible)

this fixes the interactivity problems people had with bladstorm, the making mobs immune problem, this makes teleport and smoke screen actually worth using and it also makes the shuiriken worth using.

Teleported within: 

 

[DarthKadra]

I did some testing in the Simulacrum and it turns out that while Steel Charge does affect the damage of Bladestorm, the Coaction Drift has no effect on it whatsoever. It seems like a bug to me, cause it should increase the Aura strength and it does nothing.

[DxAdder]

After trying the rework for a few hours the bladestorm re-work feels chunky.

Using it solo was a much better experience than in a groups since most of what I was marking was getting killed before I could use bladestorm.

In the End it was just as easy to either just gun them down or Melee instead.

But the biggest thing I found is the dependence on being invisible so I could mark without getting killed.

Ash use to be a Meta frame but there are just too many other frames that do more DPS and have more survivability.

 

 

 

[MithrilDragon]

The Good:

The freedom of movement while activating Smoke Screen is a godsend.  Using Teleport on crates is cute.

The Bad:

It's still difficult to apply Smoke Shadow to allies.  Everyone still needs to come to a complete stop in order to guarantee they receive it.  Teleport don't work on resource spawns.

The Ugly:

Bladestorm;

   You used to be my panic button.  Now, you are a mini-game.  We used to have so much fun, without a care in the world.  Just you and I, slaying to our hearts content.  But now I see you with my ex ... with Peacemaker, and it breaks my heart.  You knew the scars from that break-up hadn't healed yet, and now you shatter me with this betrayal.  Why did you have to change so much?  We could have worked things out: reduced your area of effect, made you a point-blank AoE, or even changed your targeting to line-of-sight.  But no, you had to reinvent yourself.  I don't even recognize you anymore.

Final thoughts:

Smoke Screen is much more useful in solo play now, still not as good as Invisibility, but close.  Teleport is still underwhelming.  If you could teleport to a targeted spot within range, then we'd have a proper rework.  Was Bladestorm over-powered?  Maybe.  Was Bladestorm exploited?  Most definitely.  Will players quit because of this change?  A few will, most will just find the next "over-powered" thing and exploit it for as long as they can.  They have plenty to choose from.  Will I still use Ash?  On the rare occasion I need Smoke Shadow, sure.

[Arkvold]

Now that I've had a chance to play it, Ash's rework is actually pretty nice.  The additional targets for Teleport doesn't come up much (I still treat it as a utility power pretty much - bladestorm's generally better for killing purposes, since teleport will often fail if your opponent isn't level with you), but the ability to use Smokescreen at any time without having to land or stop is absolutely fantastic.

Bladestorm now... feels like a directed cone rather than a "kill everything in the general area" button.  Tap 4, sweep across a field of enemies, sweep back if there's tougher ones, sweep a third time if you want to make ABSOLUTELY sure everything dies, tap 4 again.  It's harder to use it as an "oh crap" button, since you have to plan ahead who you want to hit with it, but you have Smokescreen for that now.  Its energy costs are pretty enormous, but it's controllable by being careful about your targets.

I have two big issues with the new Bladestorm.

One, the cutscenes.  C'mon, are they really necessary?  Leave the player in control over their Warframe while clones go out and assassinate the victims.  I know it's cool to see action shots of you teleporting around and killing stuff, but it gets repetitive after the first couple dozen times you see these repeating anims.  It'd make the power a lot more effective to leave the player in control, able to fight and dodge on their own while the clones take care of a pack of marked enemies.

Second, the marking mechanic.  In the time it takes to mark an enemy, you could've probably killed them,  Perhaps have the marking occur in a cone area, and have a sort of 'punch through' so that you can mark enemies beyond the ones in front of a crowd?  There's also the complaints of enemies being invulnerable while marked - is that really a thing?  C'mon, you got rid of that once and it was good.  Don't make enemies invulnerable, just make it so that every mark that goes unused due to an enemy dying at any time before the mark is actually used refunds its energy cost to the user.  This would include if it's killed by a previous Bladestorm attack, so you don't have to worry about over-marking an enemy, which would ease some of the complaints about Bladestorm's inefficiency.

My only other issue with Ash is with Teleport.

Teleport still has an unfortunate tendency to fail when used on flying enemies (ospreys), or on foes that aren't level with you, especially if they're on a slope.  Sometimes you won't be teleported properly, other times you'll be teleported, but not stun the victim (especially if they're running away), or you'll stun them, but be left in a position where you can't perform a finisher.  The reliability of Teleport and its stun needs to be looked at.

Another good idea for improving Teleport would be to allow Ash to spot-teleport, teleporting to wherever your reticule is placed, without needing a target.  Nezha can almost do this already with Blazing Chakram, and a couple other 'frames (Titania and Wukong come to mind), have freely-controllable aerial mobility.  This wouldn't be too huge a precedent.

Beyond those two issues, I feel this update puts Ash in a better place than before.  More of his powers are more reliable, and Bladestorm is not the one power to rule them all, requiring no thought to its use beyond "can I meet the energy cost" and "are there enough enemies present to ensure full usage?"

Edited November 26, 2016 by Arkvold

[AethonWalker]

I gave the rework a big try, and even though I'm happy with Smoke Screen, Bladestorm completely missed the problems players insisted on wanting fixed. The fact that we get locked in an animation seemingly without the spectres, along with the added necessity to mark enemies, really feels like a punch in the face.

I completely understand that as developers, you need to make decisions to better the game, not spoil the player, but what we asked for was very well justified. We wanted to feel like we were the ones slicing through hordes of enemies, not some bot. 

As for the invincibility, I remember that being added in. The constant bugs that would glitch players out if an enemy died from an outside source needed to be dealt with, and the spectres helped speed things up to make up for the invincibility. That being said, I also remember the sheer amount of times either my friends or myself had to help our Ash out of a never-ending stab fest on Ancient Healer-buffed Heavy Gunners in the void, and how difficult it would be to kill it in the split second between his teleportations.

It would have just been better to remove the player from Bladestorm, let the spectres jump around, and remove enemy invincibility. If a spectre ended up glitched at the end of the ability, it would just disappear after it was over, unlike the player, meaning we would get our interactivity back while we cut the glitches and bugs, and everybody could be happy.

And don't even get me started on the energy drain, that's salt in the wound right there. Knowing how you all at DE work though, I'm sure you'll find a better solution in the weeks to come.

[_lekonna_]

I tested this out. 

When i first read the notes about dissolving the bodies i thought "wow, now this makes up for the unwieldiness of using the power" My thinking was that i could go through high level exterminates, timing the smoke screen for marking targets, then smoke screen and blade storm to get a stealth multiplier.

turns out it doesn't work that way. you will not get a stealth multiplier when invisible bladestorming unaware marked targets that are not in alerted state. 

This would have made up for the usability downgrade of the bladestorm and enabled some solo focus farming again. However with the fatal teleport you get the stealth multiplier like it should, you just end up getting only 1 kill usually because of the body and enemies alerting to it.

Smoke screen change i love, its great. 

Like stated, above, make the blade storm just send out the clones while you can go and fatal-teleport in the meantime when the clones are doing their thing. 

[DarthKadra]

This rework doesn't work for me. There's little point in selecting those targets manually and then have the same old Bladestorm. All it does is make it non-viable due to being vulnerable while selecting and hence having to rely on invisibility to even cast it. And by the time you finally cast it the teammates have killed all the enemies. The marking system doesn't exactly add much precision, since whatever gets into your crosshair immediately gets marked, instead it makes things awkward and slow without any benefits. Marking a particular target out of a crowd several times or being able to control the number of hits at all is hard and time consuming even in simulacrum while invisible and targeting slow ancients. So all in all this rework renders Bladestorm highly situational, very inconvenient to use repeatedly.

[Lord_Datastorm]

3 years in this game, I am getting tired of bad nerfs to good frames. Ash is not my primary frame (Hydroid is) but after trying the new rework on Ash, I get the feeling someone only listened to the ash haters, oh he took my kills type thing. We have shared affinity kills for 1 are kills for all, get over it. Alot of the people I have talked to were expecting the clones attacked while the player could still interact in the party but this rework is junk. 15 energy no matter what per mark. Since the setup on my ash was an effic. build, blade storm was 25 energy for 18 kills (unless high level critters were around then you might just tickle them). so just 2 marks means I spend more energy then I did before.

So now I expect to see marking on other ult powers like World on Fire, Tenticle Swarm, Crush, Miasma, etc. I mean it would only be fair.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Lord_Datastorm

[CrazyLilBlackMan]

Very interesting indeed, with him only losing energy as he is marking enemies, he is able to have this up and ready to go at any time or just pop it to escape death possibly and if you tag an enemy you didn't want to (like that would ever be the case) you could easily kill them with any other means and get your energy back and proceed like you normally would. Also if there is a Trinity or Limbo (that keeps you banished) you will be able to get energy back while you continue to mark as many enemies as you can while you have energy (a cap may need to be introduced). So in the end, Ash is now in a McCree ultimate state (High Noon) but also has other means to kill them along side blade storm and this doesn't end until he runs out of energy or activates it again.