Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Vendalkin]

1 minute ago, Acos said:

We call it 'Smoke Screen', the oft forgotten about power that allows Ash to move in for the kill like... Well, like a ninja. 

The original post by Castle was in response to someone specifically saying use "fatal teleport" to accomplish the move in for the kill, which like said against poison spam infested the invisibilty of smoke screen still wouldnt work (at lvl 80-100) anyways the main point, your trying to say hes wrong in his response by stating use of another skill when his response was directly tied to the use of a specific skill.

 

[Acos]

So quick background for those who care: Ash has been my primary frame of interest for most of my WF career, and given that I'm a founder that has been quite a while. He's gone through several buffs and nerfs and revisions over that period of time and I kept playing and adapting to his different play styles mooostly because I thought he looked cooler than the other stealth flavor of the month option, Loki. Point I'm making is that I have experience with Ash, with a variety of builds, with a variety of play styles. 

Moving on. 

[Teleport] Can now teleport to objects which was... something it could already do, ages ago. I think most Ash players would have been happier with a truly free teleport for better mobility. Considering the insane levels of mobility frames like Excalibur, Rhino, or Nova have, it seems odd that Ash is still saddled with this outdated model and mostly has to rely on a slightly higher run speed. Only reason I can think of for -not- doing this is that Teleport is envisioned as having an offensive role that might be difficult or frustrating to use if you mis-aim and instead of flying into the Grineers throat, you fly off down a corridor. Still, free teleport is something I'm still hoping for with Ash as an eventual maybe. 

[Smoke Screen] Not having a ground-only rooted animation gives Ash a ton of mobility and defensive/offensive capability than he had before. Smoke can now be used as a soft crowd control by slotting negative duration, or slotted for long duration works as a very easy to apply cloak that allows him to weave through enemies, cleaving them apart with his 4x multiplier before they can even get to the other members of his team. And, of course, it can still be used to rez the guy (who will inevitably blame your lack of crowd control as the reason he died).

Actually, lets' expand on that. Ash has an augment in Smoke Shadow that really wants to turn him into a useful contributing member of the team, but its still saddled with a very difficult to utilize range that cannot be augmented in any way. Allowing Smoke Shadow to utilize range mods can finally, finally, allow Ash to fulfill some other rule than "the guy what kills things fast". Since he has to slot for the augment, and then also slot for additional range he is actually giving up a lot of his potential killing power in Bladestorm in order to achieve a higher level of team utility. Again, I am curious as to why this isn't a change that has been implemented yet, as its' something Ash players have been asking for since the augment mod came into existence. 

[Bladestorm] Most people who are looking at this change notice that the higher energy cost coupled with the more involved method of use is an obvious nerf to potential and mindless damage. To which I'd say... Yes, that was kind of the entire point. 

However, I'd like to also mention that Bladestorm being more involved also means its' able to be a lot more particular about how you want to use it. Now instead of wasting time on enemies that don't really -need- to be Bladestorm you can put all your focus on the Bombard in the other room tearing apart your team with missiles. Or if the enemies are purple from a Disruptor you can activate Bladestorm while you weed out the offender, kill the disruptor, and then launch into a flurry of blades that is actually going to make a difference. You can turn on Bladestorm while you are invisible and hacking enemies apart with your sword, marking targets out of your reach before getting tot he end of your killing spree and then jumping into Bladestorm to take out everything else that wasn't in your path. 

Point is, Bladestorm has a lot more control now, which is something I think it was missing from conception. 

A few things I'd still like to see for Bladestorm is that it still occupies an enemy with Ash if he's locked into his unique finisher animations. This means that an enemy ash is attacking cannot be attacked by any other enemy. On the other hand, Since the limit for any enemy is now three attacks at maximum, Ash is also no longer getting "stuck" on invincible enemies like Disruptors, so the degree to which this is an issue has gone down dramatically. 

I also think the power consumption needs adjusted down just ever so slightly, but at the same time I usually go with 40% efficiency and rocking Zariman recovery, so I'm not actually having the energy issues other players are reporting. 

 

TL;Don't Care Version aka "I'm a Dev, I'm literally reading thousands of these, cease your wall of babbling"

[Teleport] It used to already do that. Why can't I just teleport freely? Other warframes have that kind of mobility already. 
[Smokescreen] OH GOD YES; Why can't Smoke Shadow Augment be affected by range to give Ash a better team utility option? 
[Bladestorm] Its definitely better, allowing greater control and less "endless disruptor dancing". Energy cost needs to be a tiny bit lower. 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Acos

[Hypernaut1]

26 minutes ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

What ash are you playing with? because its NOT the current Ash we have on pc today.....There is no way you are gonna pull that off in a room full of 80-100 level enemies..and u can forget about marking them 3 times each..lol Especially if other CC frames are there...not even gonna get into a speed nova situation. Again u dont know what u talking about.

He does mark during fatal teleport finisher of you're in BS mode. Not perfect but it helps

[Noobverest]

I've done some testings with Bladestorm, and I've come to the conclusion that beyond a certain amount of power strength, it's not worth using.

I did a easy comparison between a really high power strength and medium power strength on a corrupted bombard at lv 140.

 

315% Power strength did 4000 damage, but it kills my duration and efficiency, as expected. However, what did the most damage, was not the bladestorm attack, but the 100% slash procs left on the mob. My stabs only did 12k damage in total? but slash procs applied 3 times and ticked 12k/s.

At 145% power strength, I did 2.4k damage, and the ticks still did most of the damage.

That said, there's honestly no reason for me to build my bladestorm as a high-powered killing ability as most of the damage comes from the Hp being ticked away by the slash proc. This wasn't an issue prior to the rework because one press of a button, would make Ash slash an numerous amounts of times leading to a huge amount of slash procs that would kill the target before you really notice it. I always thought it was the Finisher damage that killed the mob, but instead it was the multi-slash proc stacks.

 

There are a few issues with Bladestorm at the moment:

1. The cost of the bladestorm is too high. Highlighting a mob consisting of 20 or so mobs can drain your ENTIRE energy bar even while invisible. No other frame in this game has something that costs all your energy and still be unable to kill certain enemies such as Ancient Eximus or something.

2. Bladestorm still has an annoying animation where the more targets I tag, the longer I am stuck NOT playing the game.

3. Bladestorm is so "interactive" now that it makes it pointless to use it on anything that isn't an elite target, and when talking about elite targets, shredding armor with shuriken's augment or using fatal teleport augment is a better choice for single target elimination, thus making Bladestorm worthless.

 

I enjoy the QoL improvement for Smokebomb.

The change basically turned Smoke bomb into a one-handed animation (which was not mentioned in the patch notes), so Now I can actually invis while shooting. This actually makes it better than Loki's invisible despite being shorter.

 

The Teleport rework did almost nothing for me.

Being able to teleport to objects doesn't really make it good. I wish that Ash could teleport to surfaces, so it actually makes it useful for getting to places you normally can't bullet jump. The chances of me seeing an object when I can't just bullet jump to it is extremely rare. As most of the maps are either indoors, I have no need to teleport to objects that are in sight as I can simply bullet jump to it. In outdoor maps, the objects are so far away I don't even notice it until I get into bullet jump range, and so there's no point for this teleport change.

 

Shuriken

Shuriken could use some work, maybe make it something like Atlas's landslide, or Rhino charge and etc.. skills. Give it some way to increase in damage or the number of Shurikens. I've been wondering why the abilities show Shuriken number as 2, but nothing boosts the number, not even the augment. Please give it some way to increase in Number.

I don't mind having a useless bladestorm if Shuriken can get buffed into a Rhino-charge like ability which gives either more damage, or more shurikens (preferably).

The feeling of spamming Shuriken is great, I've always liked Shuriken spamming. it's just that it's too weak and I can't really use it in higher level content. but a buff to it would let me do so (hopefully).

 

Overall, other than the bladestorm rework (which is worse imo), everything seems about the same. So I guess the rework kind of failed?

 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Noobverest

[Madway7]

26 minutes ago, Neear said:

Especially since radiation sorties won't be a hassle with them 

Now they would have to target players intentionally 

[BoltSparkRage]

As usual another good frame has been  made kinda iffy  ( lotta dps /survivability and energy cost  nerf ) srsly.. stop making all the decent frames work like a piece of junk is all id say .... Thats why ppl keep dropping outta the game  (< myself included) Anyways nice skin but have fun  making the rest of the frames perform like  c....p .

 

[Acos]

FYI: Bladestorm is the listed damaged, and then 7 tics of Bleed Damage at 35% of the original damage. Bladestorm is also affected by your melee multiplier, so mods like Body Count are going to be incredibly useful in getting the most out of it. Finally, Arcane Trickery really changes Bladestorms utility by giving you an "out" option during the 'Storm so you aren't immediately castrated as soon as you leave the animation dance. 

So at 4,000 Bladestorm damage you're expected to actually do 8,000 damage at a 2x multiplier, or 12,000 damage at a 3x multiplier. Then your blood procs are going to be 9,800/19,600/29,400 depending on where you are in your combo multiplier. That puts the final damage of a single Bladestorm at 13,800/27,600/40,400 which is enough to kill most high level enemies. The only things that can stand up to something like that would be your special "mini-boss" level enemies who have around 60,000 to 90,000 HP at level 140. That said, Fatal Teleport (or just regular Teleport with a decent melee weapon) are exactly what that power is for. 

Bladestorm is still, to me, a "trash clean up" move, and mostly shines against the Grineer while being a very tricky option to utilize effectively against the Infested. 

[Noobverest]

36 minutes ago, Neear said:

 

Personally I'm ok with Ash's rework. Especially since radiation sorties won't be a hassle with them and no more press 4 to win. Also I think his BS feels more fluid now more than it was b4.

Don't worry, the Bladestorm rework was so bad, most people have transitioned into using Fatal teleport.

I've seen so many Ashes lately (including myself) and none of us bothered using Bladestorm

 

Just invis and Fatal teleport/Seeking Shuriken all the way.

[Viedra_Lavinova]

I don't understand why ash is still a part of bladestorm? Let his clones do it. (Still use marking mechanic)

[(PSN)Vexx757]

I say make put bs back the way it was but with two changes; one enemies that are marked red can be killed by other players and two if you don`t want to see the animation press four again and you run around while the clones kill things. So the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not, that`s just common sense.

[Mousarchy]

atm from me and my friends running a few runs the last couple days. i do have afew small tiny QOL tid bits

teleport- cool we can teleport to crates...those dont last long and at times its REALLY hard to find said brakeable containers before they break. Would be nice to add terminals to the teleport choices. would be nice for moveing around away from enemies if need be. or for getting to an alarm/lockdown much quicker.

Bladestrom - add a number on the skill showing the total strikes applied. Some times we dont think its worth the time to use blade strom on just 7~ units. and its nice to know how long ill be out for.
(we were also assuming we were going to summon our clones to do the murder for us)
(also a little cool unique animation i just thought of on the spot. when you do quick attack finishers you use ash's weapon instead of the melee. kind of like the opposite of how blade strom sometimes uses the melee)

 

[Azuset]

On 11/24/2016 at 6:50 PM, Nagisawa said:

 A single bullet will still kill faster than Bladestorm.

I agree with this the most. Why bother with bladestorm when you can just kill everyone you are targeting?

DE what do you say?

[lLegion]

Any news from DE on when are they going to fix that disasterous remake?

[Azuset]

On 11/25/2016 at 3:10 PM, Alpha_Zerg said:

add the marking system to Shuriken, and add more shurikens, allowing you to mark multiple targets and nail them to walls selectively.

I think this would be a much better interactive play style for shurikens as well. Great idea. 

[xxander88]

I'm a big fan of ash and although i didn't like the press 4 to win. the new reword seems really pointless with bladestorm at least. the time it take to mark and could have easily just shot them. i found myself in mission trying to find ways to use the power instead of it being useful.I notice more often than not i was not shooting the enemies just so i could take the extra time to mark them and hope that my team hasnt destroyed all of them by then. unless i was in a survival were i could get away from my team and have a good group of enemies to myself i found it really just easier to just shoot them. if they would get rid of the animation and just let his clones do it so you can still run around i could see this being a lot more useful but in its current state just seem useless 

Edited November 28, 2016 by xxander88

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

58 minutes ago, Azuset said:

I agree with this the most. Why bother with bladestorm when you can just kill everyone you are targeting?

DE what do you say?

They actually answered this on the showcase for the rework. They said "what's the point in using anything if you could use your guns" you won't believe how pissed I'm am from hearing that.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)CFE Angry
Fixed

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

If DE doesnt want to remove "mark mode"...just make "mark mode" toggled AOE around Ash, like ember's WOF. Enemys in set AOE (base 10 meters) and every one of ashs abilities are buffed and enemies are automatically marked. And then u can use your 1,3 to assinate each enemy marked. Kinda like a aim bot. ashs 2 gets a 15 second base.

Edited November 28, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Shad0wWatcher]

Quick spoiler claimer here that leads into Ash's teleport addon and what it kinda should have been

Spoiler

Somehow i feel that the ability of our operator, "Void Dash", is what Teleport should've been turned into with this "rework".

Now with bladestorm: I like the changes but i'm not that excited about it. It's heading in a nice direction at the very least, that i can appreciate, it does go a lot faster now and that is a really good thing about it. But no rework is without its flaws, i don't really have much to add in terms of what could still be better or different cause many others here have already explained that very thoroughly. I do really like that black aura that surrounds Ash when he goes in to marking mode. Seemed fitting. ^{_{I secretly wanted it to become a channel ability featuring his hidden blades seeing as they are extremely iconic to Ash...but that's just me.}}  

I really really REALLY love the change to smoke screen, it's amazing how just 2 changes made it so much better for mobility. Always being able use it on the fly right now.

But with what i have said...i'm not ungrateful for the changes, thanks DE. The fact that you've at the very least taken the time to pay attention to his abilities(sort of) is already great. 

[S0V3REiGN]

24 minutes ago, Azuset said:

I think this would be a much better interactive play style for shurikens as well. Great idea. 

Can't say I like that idea to be honest. Shurikens don't exactly have the best targeting. how would it go about targeting multiple enemies that are in different distances in the same general direction? The way if currently is it simply won't do that and if you try make it hit enemies just once then shuriken itself would become more useless as a stand alone ability (not that it was that great to begin with). The best I read someone explain on the forums was to make shuriken impale enemies to walls for a certain amount of time.

Edited November 28, 2016 by S0V3REiGN

[i.chit.you.not]

my suggestion for the ash rework is not use ash at all, he'll just dress up pretty in a deluxe skin and sit in corner of my ship

- same corner as mag, mesa, saryn are sitting

Edited November 28, 2016 by g4yb4ll

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

15 minutes ago, S0V3REiGN said:

Can't say I like that idea to be honest. Shurikens don't exactly have the best targeting. how would it go about targeting multiple enemies that are in different distances in the same general direction? The way if currently is it simply won't do that and if you try make it hit enemies just once then shuriken itself would become more useless as a stand alone ability (not that it was that great to begin with). The best I read someone explain on the forums was to make shuriken impale enemies to walls for a certain amount of time.

could knockem down?

[FateChristopher]

I really loved the rework to be honest. The main thing that I really love about it is that there was more freedom of movement. Picking out your targets before executing them is very cool and you feel like a fighter pilot of an extremely dangerous and mobile jet.

The one thing that I don't like is that no matter what it comes down to us still watching that animation and for me it stops the pace of the game. Warframe is a game where you start off with the pedal to the medal and its GO GO GO until you reach the end of the mission. The Bladestorm animation is a hard stop in terms of that pace.

For me what would really work is just simply not having the animation. Get rid of the vomit cam and simply just send out the clones to attack and you keep on moving, defending the objective, etc. I would still feel pretty cool seeing my army of shadow clones taking down the enemy while I Smokescreen and move on.

So in short get rid of Ash's vomit cam sequence and just send out the clones so that we can have freedom of movement during Bladestorm.

[Aeon94]

20 hours ago, Raniu said:

I don't agree with all the 'Peacemakes is fine' comments.

We're playing a ninja game yet we become immobile in Peacemaker. She's mostly used on def missions :/

• allow players to zoom in while in Peacemaker

• allow players to walk (Nyx's augmented Absorb speed) while in Peacemaker (ability's feature)

+ allow players to use Mesa's Waltz in PvE (a mod you have give up a mod slot for)

Voila, Mesa is perfect.

Couldn't agree more !

A few touches to PM instead of rework and she becomes my favourite :D

[ssh83]

After playing Ash more, I have to say...

RIP Bladestorm.

DE added "no corpse" effect because they know Bladestorm rework killed any tactical reason to use it over other weapon and offensive frame.  Does not make up for the clunky and energy-inefficient nature of the rework at all.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

4 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

Just dont change the color of the text, not the Theme.

^this