[Lore] The Hidden Messages quest and 'the Mirage Paradox' (Spoilers?)

[l07g]

So I wanted to make this post quite some time ago, so here it is:

What is the Mirage Paradox ? :

It's the name I gave to the contradiction between the nature of the Tenno and the grief that Lotus feels when losing 'Mirage' as seen in the Hidden Messages quest:

Spoiler

The Void imprint... it's old. I see... Worm ships coming out of punch! A Warframe fighting Sentients... shields are failing...

Sorry, Tenno, I'm not sure what that was.

I see the Sentients crashing down on her, dying in overwhelming numbers. Now she's out of energy, I'm telling her to go but she's laughing, tearing their heads off as they swarm.

I see the glow of restraints around the Warframe. I'm trying to surge the revive system but I can't, I'm too far away. A great, faceted eye watches her.

I tell her I won't lose her. That I have another ship on its way. She is smiling because she knows I am lying... Tenno... the second blueprint has been recovered.

I see the eyes open and the heat blinds me. I hear her comforting me, telling me not to despair as the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her, forever.

We can see from this extract from the quest that the Tenno controlling Mirage somehow dies with the Warframe (if only the Warframe died, it would be lost 'forever' and we wouldn't have Mirage today).

As a side note, since the Specters of the Rails came out, you are rewarded with the hidden messages quest when completing the pluto-sedna junction. However, you need to complete The Second Dream first in order to do that. I don't know if we can conclude anything from this unfortunately.

So I'm left with nothing but questions and speculations since U18, so I'm posting this in the hope I would get some more plausible answers.

 

What could be the explanation behind this paradox ? (or how did the Tenno die?):

Here are the few explanations I came up with:

1) The Warframe is out of Transference range and the Tenno is basically 'stuck' in the Warframe like Silvana being imprisoned in a tree in the Silver Grove quest (but not for the same reasons).

2) The Lotus was somehow unaware of the nature of the Tenno at the time and thought that the Tenno died along with Mirage.

3) Fasten your seat belts please:

Spoiler

The first Warframes were controlled physically by a very powerful Tenno (the Tenno was inside the Warframe).

The Orokin then managed to create Infested duplicates of these Tenno the same way as the Infested created duplicates of Ancients (see Corrupted Ancient imprint) such that the 'weaker Tenno' (us) could take control of via Transference.

The Mirage from the quest is one of these 'original warframes' therefore when the warframe died, the Tenno died too.

4)Lotus is lying as pointed out by Genitive

5)plot hole/Space Magic as pointed out by Tyrhal and Mofojokers but nobody likes plot holes, right?

Your ideas/opinions are welcome, so please consider giving me feedback on this subject.

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by l07g

[Genitive]

Or the Lotus simply lied to us (again) to prevent us from learning the truth.

[Autongnosis]

OR considering she was fighting actual Sentients and not fragments, there is something we don't know :)

[WrathAscending]

We know that beings who have Oro cannot be killed through conventional means.

We also know tht the Sentients either have it, or have some similar power given Hunhow's deathless state.

It may be that only a being with Oro can kill another who has it, thus the Tenno being the only ones who could kill the Orokin after the Old War or the damger we face in The War Within by being physically present for certain events rather than controlling our Warframes via Transference.

On the other hand, Tau being beyond the range a Tenno can return from with Transference or the Lotus lying to preserve the Second Dream are both elegant answers to the question.

[Altorac]

Perhaps older models lacked fail-safes to prevent sympathetic physical injury to the Operator during Transference. Kind of like the psycho-somatic injuries Titan Princepts accrue in 40k lore...

Edited November 29, 2016 by Altorac
Spelling.

[Tyrhal]

Ummm... or maybe this quest stems from a time in which DE had a totally different concept regarding warframes? They later scrapped that. I mean... just sayin'.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Alot of Warframe lore is all over the place because at different times they had different directions.

Just do what i do....

DE " Space Magic "

Then just enjoy the ride, reading too much into video game lore tends to end badly. ?

Edited November 29, 2016 by (PS4)Mofojokers

[JohnKable]

I always thought that the first warframese were "made-up" void powered warriors.
And now their body can be replicated with recovered blueprints, but its just a lifeless shell that find and use only if controlled via transference by a tenno.
I dont think the first warframes were created with tennos in mind, but as stand alone living weapons with self consciousness. 
Probably without orokin technnology only their "shells" can be replicated now, which is useful enough if powered with transference "magic" than can empower them again with the same void energy.

This could be an half explanation for the warframe being able to take off the sword from is chest in the ending of the second dream. because maybe it hasnt an actual self-consciousness anymore but still something more similiar to muscle-memory or something like that.

[Tyrhal]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Mofojokers said:

Alot of Warframe lore is all over the place because at different times they had different directions.

Just do what i do....

DE " Space Magic "

Then just enjoy the ride, reading too much into video game lore tends to end badly. ?

Exactly. The Hidden Messages quest stems from a time where DE had a different idea of warframes.

[Yrveth]

Well it's worth noting that "she" isn't lost "forever" until after the warframe is disintegrated, even though the revive system is said to be in need of surging prior to that. Also, I don't know how relevant this is to the question, but those memories are probably not Lotus's own.

Out of the possible explanations you list, I like the first one best. But I also wonder, since hurting the frame also hurts its Operator, isn't it possible that it could have further adverse effects? Or even that the Transference system had some kinks in its early days that were eventually patched away.

31 minutes ago, Tyrhal said:

Exactly. The Hidden Messages quest stems from a time where DE had a different idea of warframes.

Regardless, I think the idea is to salvage it without rewriting anything.

[Cyriann]

If we go to think that both Tenno and Warframe died, which is for us impossible. 

Maybe we can say that at the time the Mirage we follow in those messages fought and died, the automatic link rupture meant to protect the Operator either, didn't exist (pretty unlikely to me), or wasn't perfected as it is now. In both of those cases if take on the assumption that syntonizing could happen (basically the principle of mind affecting the body to a physical and possibly deadly level, and specifically with dreams) between Warframe and  Tenno, then it becomes possible that the wounds inflicted onto the warframe were transferred to the Tenno causing death, on both ends.

The Lotus simply doesn't tells us about it, because now that the system works, there's no possibility that this could happen again. Furthermore, she acknowledges the fact that her own memories of this moment are blurry, and even with The Second Dream being revealed those memories can still be confused enough for her to use shortcuts to fill in the blanks in what she tells us.

This story is a bit weird, but so is Mirage when you think about it, she plays with lights in pretty weird ways, so having a twisted and confusing story linked to her feels pretty fitting to me.

[l07g]

4 minutes ago, Belgard said:

 Also, I don't know how relevant this is to the question, but those memories are probably not Lotus's own.

Could they be the Tenno's memories? And in this case, the Tenno treats the Warframe as a completely different entity.

[Yrveth]

5 minutes ago, l07g said:

Could they be the Tenno's memories? And in this case, the Tenno treats the Warframe as a completely different entity.

I was wondering that myself. The problem is, in that case, we will have a fully self-aware Warframe acting at its own discretion. I'm a big fan of frames being more than empty vessels, but this amount of free will (rejecting the Operator's order) begs the question of what the Tenno is even for. Merely channeling Void power?

Also, while it would make a heartwarming scene, it would also further dissociate the Tenno and their Warframes and I thought DE were trying to go the opposite direction with that.

I am tempted to say it may still be justified with Umbra, but ultimately whatever we know about Umbra is not from a reliable source.

[rand0mname]

I was always thinking that Mirage Operator was in the... whatever this chair we use after Second Dream called correctly. Is it on Liset or is it on Orbiter? Confused on this one. Anyway, we do have it installed, so it's safe to assume it was used at some point - for a long distance missions or something. And that last stand described by Lotus was Sentients getting close to the ship and... well "I am a stealth ship not a combat pod!"

Edited November 29, 2016 by rand0mname

[arch111]

The warframes who left for Tau I am guessing were too remote for somatic-link.

I think Limbo, Mirage and mag prime all were inside their warframes.

Lotus tells Mirage to run. She knows there is no hope unless the Tenno get in range of a somatic pod or ship.

Mirage knows she is about to die and fights to the very end.

This is the most simple way to view the idea of Excalibur.

"We built a frame around them."

That works for Somatic chamber and for a warframe. The question is, when were the Tenno placed into Second Dream?

Some may have been in their warframe the whole time, and if they died they were lost.

[Enno69]

My idea is that the first warframes, the ones built during the war, were indeed manned by real persons. Exposure to the power of the Void caused the flesh and the mechanical constructs to eventually merge together, forming the frames our operators nowaday use through a symbiotic link (be it the original designs or the retrofitted ones). This would explain while each frame has distinct animations showcasing their respective personalities (playful Mirage, crotch-wobbling Limbo etc).

[Miser_able]

We know that operators feel the same pain that the frames do so I think that the pain mirage felt while being destroyed transferred to the operators' body and it couldn't handle it and simply died.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Possible explanation for once?

*Cough cough* War Within Aftermath *Cough Cough*

[erny0507]

Ok ill try to explain my self about this and pardon my english, Im peruvian so it is not my first language.

I think that the first warframe of each type was done over a living person, but as they were engineer their bodies and memories were made into blueprints, yes even memories (blueprints are maybe store devices), then the tenno made their version of them (the normal ones) as they kep their memories (the stances they use are unique so it shows some personality on them but no enough to overcome the tenno's one). So at that point that mirage was alone, was tenno made, had personality and was alive with herself, no tenno behind her controlling her. So she died and mama lotus felt bad for her, being  no mirage original prime around that mirage was the only copy so was identify as a person, a unique being at that moment. Warframes should have their own personality as the stalker does, we enter on them as we did with the orokin maul on the TWW quest. At least thats what i thought

[45neo]

5 hours ago, JohnKable said:

I always thought that the first warframese were "made-up" void powered warriors.
And now their body can be replicated with recovered blueprints, but its just a lifeless shell that find and use only if controlled via transference by a tenno.
I dont think the first warframes were created with tennos in mind, but as stand alone living weapons with self consciousness. 
Probably without orokin technnology only their "shells" can be replicated now, which is useful enough if powered with transference "magic" than can empower them again with the same void energy.

This could be an half explanation for the warframe being able to take off the sword from is chest in the ending of the second dream. because maybe it hasnt an actual self-consciousness anymore but still something more similiar to muscle-memory or something like that.

nope, lore implicitly states that warframes were made with tenno in mind.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

1 minute ago, 45neo said:

nope, lore implicitly states that warframes were made with tenno in mind.

That, and the fact that the first Titania was even explained as being made during her quest, no people put inside.

[Xgomme]

For me it's a sort of "3"

 

Spoiler

More like Dark Sector and Hayden Tenno, the first warframe was an infested guy. Orokins captured/killed them and clone them to make weapons. Tthe first experiments are still "wild" (Rhino codex) so they found a way to control them using void energy or something like this

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Xgomme

[Gelkor]

6 hours ago, l07g said:

So I wanted to make this post quite some time ago, so here it is:

What is the Mirage Paradox ? :

It's the name I gave to the contradiction between the nature of the Tenno and the grief that Lotus feels when losing 'Mirage' as seen in the Hidden Messages quest:

  Reveal hidden contents

The Void imprint... it's old. I see... Worm ships coming out of punch! A Warframe fighting Sentients... shields are failing...

Sorry, Tenno, I'm not sure what that was.

I see the Sentients crashing down on her, dying in overwhelming numbers. Now she's out of energy, I'm telling her to go but she's laughing, tearing their heads off as they swarm.

I see the glow of restraints around the Warframe. I'm trying to surge the revive system but I can't, I'm too far away. A great, faceted eye watches her.

I tell her I won't lose her. That I have another ship on its way. She is smiling because she knows I am lying... Tenno... the second blueprint has been recovered.

I see the eyes open and the heat blinds me. I hear her comforting me, telling me not to despair as the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her, forever.

We can see from this extract from the quest that the Tenno controlling Mirage somehow dies with the Warframe (if only the Warframe died, it would be lost 'forever' and we wouldn't have Mirage today).

As a side note, since the Specters of the Rails came out, you are rewarded with the hidden messages quest when completing the pluto-sedna junction. However, you need to complete The Second Dream first in order to do that. I don't know if we can conclude anything from this unfortunately.

So I'm left with nothing but questions and speculations since U18, so I'm posting this in the hope I would get some more plausible answers.

 

What could be the explanation behind this paradox ? (or how did the Tenno die?):

Here are the few explanations I came up with:

1) The Warframe is out of Transference range and the Tenno is basically 'stuck' in the Warframe like Silvana being imprisoned in a tree in the Silver Grove quest (but not for the same reasons).

2) The Lotus was somehow unaware of the nature of the Tenno at the time and thought that the Tenno died along with Mirage.

3) Fasten your seat belts please:

  Reveal hidden contents

The first Warframes were controlled physically by a very powerful Tenno (the Tenno was inside the Warframe).

The Orokin then managed to create Infested duplicates of these Tenno the same way as the Infested created duplicates of Ancients (see Corrupted Ancient imprint) such that the 'weaker Tenno' (us) could take control of via Transference.

The Mirage from the quest is one of these 'original warframes' therefore when the warframe died, the Tenno died too.

4)Lotus is lying as pointed out by Genitive

5)plot hole/Space Magic as pointed out by Tyrhal and Mofojokers but nobody likes plot holes, right?

Your ideas/opinions are welcome, so please consider giving me feedback on this subject.

 

Have you played the War Within?

Spoiler

We can now manifest our Operators alongside our Warframes, in fact, using our Operator Powers on Sentients removes their damage resistance, so when fighting Sentients it's better to leave the Warframe periodically to blast them with void energy and then go back in.  Who is to say Mirage's operator didn't do that, and was eventually killed alongside their Warframe while fighting sentients.

 

[Greenshockclaw]

One of my favorite theories regarding the lore is that originally the warframes were built as suits around a single operator/soldier, which is why each warframe is so unique in design and mechanics. this would also explain why we can't simply find the blueprints for and build warframes like titania, mirage, chroma, and inaros, as the warframe was lost when the soldier inside was killed in combat. this may seem like a stretch when you look at inaros' design, but you have to remember that the warframes are themselves organic, and inaros was mummified. eventually the warframes would have been mass produced for use in combat via transference.