Void Relics, Bigger Grind Wall?

[ChuckMaverick]

5 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

I removed that part of my post because i didnt re-iterate that im doing excavation or interception, as they are leaps and boooounds faster than defenses and survivals. and still faster per key per minute with only one drop in C. Read the whole post, are you really telling me that V5 is not the most sought out, rare Axi relic currently? Maybe E1 now, but ignore that one.

I agree that excavations can be much faster, but interceptions take at least 3.5 minutes per round (that's how long it takes to get to 100% with all 4 nodes capped) which is probably on a par with defense, and not all that much faster than survival.

Yes, Axi V5 is missing from rot B of Xini and other missions in that group (and only there), but those missions are so far out of line with the drop chances of any other mission that drops relics that they're probably due for an 'adjustment' anyway.

[Hesyol]

1 hour ago, p3z1 said:

In fact, the old system WAS better, allowing players to farm up to 4 primes in 20 minutes/waves, while spending one key. The current system requires a player to spend 4 relics, although it guarantees a prime part almost always.

That's one of the reasons why that system was removed.

 

1 hour ago, p3z1 said:

- RNG to get a relic

This is a thing I can agree with. There are too many relics you can get from any node. It's especially bad now with unvault, because they didn't remove any old relics just added more to the rng.

[Skaleek]

1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I agree that excavations can be much faster, but interceptions take at least 3.5 minutes per round (that's how long it takes to get to 100% with all 4 nodes capped) which is probably on a par with defense, and not all that much faster than survival.

Yes, Axi V5 is missing from rot B of Xini and other missions in that group (and only there), but those missions are so far out of line with the drop chances of any other mission that drops relics that they're probably due for an 'adjustment' anyway.

What hurts me the most is that theyre not all just equal drop rates. Why? Honestly. Whenever an AXI relic drops why not just weight them equally? Why create this artificial rarity? DE is making their own system grindier than it needs to be, and for what? So we play a few extra hours and burn ourselves out more? Is that really going to increase profit? It's exhaaaausting.

[ChuckMaverick]

3 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

DE is making their own system grindier than it needs to be, and for what? So we play a few extra hours and burn ourselves out more? Is that really going to increase profit? It's exhaaaausting.

The only conclusion that I can draw is that it's grindier to encourage people to buy the Prime Access / Vault packs, instead of farming them.

[Crawd127]

27 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Shodian said:

But Warframe is a free to play game, funded by nobody but the players themselves, This is their way of making sure we get more content. Xenoblade never got an upgrade after it came out. Different types of games require different types of ways to stay a float. If a player doesn't feel like that money is justified for an item way would they put any time into it either?

Oh, I'm not saying it's not a bad thing to have paid content in a free to play game, I just said it's not justified to pay the price of a brand new game for a very small part of the game. I know there's some naive people who would buy everything right off the bat. But does paying that much justify the quality of the game we play right now? At some point, it's good to ask the question. Just throwing the question away is like saying: "Let's stop evolving!"

But my point is valid, when you look at the price paid for the content you receive, is it justified? Specially for a game that, like you said, has been funded already. Honestly, I don't mind to see all the cosmetic accessible through real money, because it's cosmetics. But I also think that if it's more accessible to more people (aka reasonable price), more people would get those.

Yes, I agree Xenoblade is a different type of games and it didn't got an upgrade. However, there's almost no bugs into the game, you get the full game right off the bat. Now, with Warframe, the story is entirely different, we got what this year in terms of content? Not much to justify paying a Prime Access. It's barely 6 hours of content. Nothing to be proud of. But that's another story.

Bottom line, if you enjoy paying the huge price for almost nothing, it's you. Heck some F2P games would probably do something like: "Pay 150$ and get every Prime version of the frame on release." This would be more reasonable, but it's not the case.

Anyway, you barely brought any argument on why it's fine and it's acceptable.

Unless your the kind of people who get their stuffs through someone else money!

[Skaleek]

2 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The only conclusion that I can draw is that it's grindier to encourage people to buy the Prime Access / Vault packs, instead of farming them.

Once someone starts to grind the PA, I think the odds go way down that they will pay for it, due to the fact that they've invested time and progress into it. So i can only surmise they make this one hurt so that the next PA people will buy. Maybe I'm an odd duck, but when someone tries to coerce me like this, they make me less likely to give them money. I used to give DE money on a regular basis because i loved the game and design direction. As of late i have no desire to give them a penny.

[ChuckMaverick]

Just now, Skaleek said:

Once someone starts to grind the PA, I think the odds go way down that they will pay for it, due to the fact that they've invested time and progress into it. So i can only surmise they make this one hurt so that the next PA people will buy. Maybe I'm an odd duck, but when someone tries to coerce me like this, they make me less likely to give them money. I used to give DE money on a regular basis because i loved the game and design direction. As of late i have no desire to give them a penny.

One way to 'beat' the system would be to wait until the next Prime Access reshuffles all the drop tables again, then Axi V5 will be as common as all other Axi relics and a new one will take its place as 'most rare'.

[JohnKable]

Guys just do the math.

The new system is times better if you are after a specific piece.  And if you want only ducats its still efficient since DE increased prime part values.

Now its easy no get the part, the real farm are relics, and the relic drops arent bad as you like to think. overall even considering the total grinding (relic+part) the math still points out that is easier now.

And i was swimming in keys before the update, never had to farm for those. But still i wont ever forget the week spent in survival after Ash prime system. If you count the key farm too, the older system was far worse.
Many people just compain because they spent all the time in recruitment chat trying to snipe an invite for a mission they had no key for. If they ever spent time actually farming for keys too they would love the new system. Aint perfect, but its definitely better

Math aside my feeling is totally better now, running 4 radiant team can get me all the pieces i want in a reasonable time. And if it doesnt prices drop much quicker now (because parts are easier to get) so at worst ill buy what im missing for very reasonable prices.

To me the only downside right now is that there is almost pointless to spend time and effor to upgrade gear and frames because long runs have totally lost their purpose.
And that just makes me sad because i was both bored and addicted to long key runs

Edited December 7, 2016 by JohnKable

[Skaleek]

5 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

One way to 'beat' the system would be to wait until the next Prime Access reshuffles all the drop tables again, then Axi V5 will be as common as all other Axi relics and a new one will take its place as 'most rare'.

Yeah, not a bad idea honestly. Only problem is radshares start to get very hard to find. I suppose if more people started doing that, I probably would too.

[Miser_able]

I hated the old system because every part was pushed into endless missions and there was no reason to do anything else.

With relics what I do is go through all my lith for ducats and then use the traces o upgrade my rarer relics. Simple as pie.

[p3z1]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)Shodian said:

I respectfully disagree. The only thing here is you can't use stockpiled keys anymore to start looking for new parts. If you didn't have t Hey key you'd still have to go farm for it and use it. With the new system you have traces that you get from opening other relics for ducats that you use on the new relics. And if you have a full squad a choice of what you want. I feel this system is a lot better.

Stockpiling isn't a problem as well. A problem is getting the relics themselves. One needs to be MR 19 just to be able to reliably get at least one pack per day, or he stockpiles those things that syndicates look for (marks, medallions, etc), so stockpiling is indirectly possible still.

Last part, not all of us can get to play with a full squad. Solo players, or players with bad internet, are shafted again. Yes, I'm in a 3rd world country with state-of-the-S#&$ internet, which means I'm not benefitting fully from the system. Of course, that's not part of the argument, right?

9 hours ago, Lyravain said:

Relics are definitely not more grindy than keys. You have to get more of them, but have you thought about using them? It takes a bit longer to gather your relics, but now you can run relics much faster for what you need, considering you can choose what kind of reward you get, instead of depending on RNGesus to bless you once every 20minutes/waves. Speaking of, isn't it MUCH faster to get that rare, doing 5minutes in a mission before you can see if you rolled lucky or not, rather than having the same chances but rolling only once every 20minutes? Not to mention, in a team, you don't roll once, but up to 4 times, drastically increasing the rate of getting what you want.

So, to answer your question; no, it's NOT more grindy with relics. Annoying when you don't have standing to get syndicate relic packs and have to do missions instead? Sure. But grindy? Not even close to where it was before. You know, where you still had to grind for keys and then use them one at a time.

That's a bad question right there. Of course I use my relics, else I would be ranting about stockpiling (I didn't rant about stockpiling, I ranted about the amount of RNG).

I used the example of endless missions for rewards (those 20 minutes/5 waves thing), but there were other missions as well with the better parts, but diluted af tables (IIRC T4 exterminate was a mess of a table).

Sure, the current system is faster, moreso with a team, but not everyone has the ability to play with 4 players (S#&$ internet, etc etc). As a solo player, nothing changes much, except the amount of grind. Play with 4 players and you get to see the difference, assuming you can get a set up for something you want (e.g. vaulted radiant relic).

Syndicate standing isn't a problem, since medallions and dailies exist. Last part, it isn't as different as before. You still use one relic/key at a time.

8 hours ago, Hesyol said:

That's one of the reasons why that system was removed.

Higher difficulty for greater rewards, I don't see the problem in that. People run 60 waves just to get a certain prime part before, and I don't see a problem there, since enemies are next to unkillable and players are next to getting one-hit by bombards.

8 hours ago, JohnKable said:

Guys just do the math.

The new system is times better if you are after a specific piece.  And if you want only ducats its still efficient since DE increased prime part values.

Now its easy no get the part, the real farm are relics, and the relic drops arent bad as you like to think. overall even considering the total grinding (relic+part) the math still points out that is easier now.

-snip-

To me the only downside right now is that there is almost pointless to spend time and effor to upgrade gear and frames because long runs have totally lost their purpose.
And that just makes me sad because i was both bored and addicted to long key runs

I don't see your math, show me :)

The reason ducat prices were raised is because no one whined gave feedback about it much in the old system.

The new system is better if you have access to other players with the same aim as you*

Relic drops are bad. I saw a thread here somewhere, showing a LOT of mod rewards per extractor/wave, and only about 2 relics?

DE should fix drop tables if they want to make this better, because who even likes getting Cleanse Infested 20 minutes in a survival?

[Hypernaut1]

Notice how these threads always pop up a day or two after a prime item is released?

You farm too hard. If these items were easy to get in two days, what's the point? You want then to just give it to you?

[Lanadra]

50 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You farm too hard. If these items were easy to get in two days, what's the point? You want then to just give it to you?

Kinda contradicting yourself there, pall, you say someone is trying too hard, and then act as if he hasn't tried at all.

[(XBOX)Zero117AsZ]

13 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The only conclusion that I can draw is that it's grindier to encourage people to buy the Prime Access / Vault packs, instead of farming them.

I know but come on Ember and frost for the same price that frost alone was last year?! that pissed me off so much, and for the grinding part i haven to agree, today  i spent half of a day farming relics (that almost never came out the ones i was looking just two neo s5, one axi E1, Meso F2 and Lith G1, and what happens next you refine that relic to radiant only to see that you got the most common drop, really?! And back again to farm relics expecting to luckily get the one you want and the if you got it let's farm more void traces...

For more bad luck you don't get the part you wanted (even with a full squad) so lets repeat all the ritual again... Honestly I really miss the old void system, more fun, less grind, and more rewards.

[SenorClipClop]

Some important things to consider:

• Every player still had to farm for Void Keys too, they just usually already had a bunch when the new stuff dropped.
• Relics drop more commonly and we have been given information in-game as to where they drop.
• Key missions had giant drop tables, diluting your chances to get relevant material.
• Reward tables for each Relic are 6, and they contain only Prime parts, Blueprints and Forma.
• Void Key missions could often give Orokin Cells or Fusion Cores as a reward.
• Running for a specific part, with Relics you can play any of 6-10 rotating missions types across most of the game's tilesets and factions. Void keys made you hunt for any particular part by doing the same mission, on the same tileset, at the same difficulty, over and over again. This, to me, is the definition of the worst kind of grind to have in a video game.

Edited December 8, 2016 by SenorClipClop

[kyori]

It is all about making players play the game more. 

[SharkPot]

Relics are faster if you have good rng than keys. But if you have bad rng then relic easily takes over 3x grind then keys.

I have been trying to get nek p sys I have done 114 rad shares till now, nikana p hilt 127 rad shares and still don't have it. I bought Nek p and at this point I'm just grinding just so that I can make a graph if you have absolute worst rng.

[(PSN)Puckish_Rogue125]

16 hours ago, Crawd127 said:

I'll be a bit mean about that answer, but why would I want to pay the price of a brand new game, for a very small part of a game in "Beta state".

As much as I like Warframe, I feel like it's not a good direction for a game. I do agree that DE needs a way to get money, but it's kinda absurd to pay the price of a game at any gamestore just to prevent the farming. I don't mind farming a little, but at some point, it's just stupid. I look at Xenoblade Chronicles on the Wii, I played 150 hours to complete as much as I can and I know that I'm only half-way done, plus the game had some grinding to do, but once I paid the game, I got everything, not just a part of it.

At some point, people has to ask themselves what game of game quality they want and at what cost. I do enjoy gaming, but I don't want to do it if it cost 2000$+ over 3 years, at this point, having a monthly fee of 12$ per month is better...

You playin on steam? Heard of greenlight? Early access all that jazz? Its a very subjective and popular concept. Some people have more disposable income than others. For me the price of a new game is nothing(especislly since i bought donkey kong and the legend of zelda 20+ years ago and they cost $120 brand new...yeah games were more expensive) but to you it could be a big spluge you really have to think about. You can or not purchase PA and if you dont, learn to live with whatever system the devs implement for you to access the content for free. Its not difficult, i think there is just this mosconception these days that $60 is a lot of money especially for a video game even when they used to be more expensive and biard games and table top gzmes can be 10x that cost. 

[Crawd127]

3 hours ago, (PS4)thedarkness1962 said:

You playin on steam? Heard of greenlight? Early access all that jazz? Its a very subjective and popular concept. Some people have more disposable income than others. For me the price of a new game is nothing(especislly since i bought donkey kong and the legend of zelda 20+ years ago and they cost $120 brand new...yeah games were more expensive) but to you it could be a big spluge you really have to think about. You can or not purchase PA and if you dont, learn to live with whatever system the devs implement for you to access the content for free. Its not difficult, i think there is just this mosconception these days that $60 is a lot of money especially for a video game even when they used to be more expensive and biard games and table top gzmes can be 10x that cost. 

Where did I said that 60$ is a lot of money? I bought games for 150$. But there's a real difference between buying a game and buying a very small feature within a game for the price of a full game. This isn't misconception of "60$ being a lot of money".

As I've said, and strangely, you didn't talk about that, I find better the idea of paying a game 12$ per month, than buying 2 or 3 Prime Access.

But hey, it's my opinion, we don't have to agree on everything, I don't agree with this kind of business because it's plain absurd and built around trickering naive people. I'll end with this it's not because it's a popular concept that the concept is ethically acceptable.

[Cosmic_Elf]

I would not be playing this game if it had a monthly fee, in fact I would never play a game that has a monthly fee. I expect to buy a game , play it for life specifically for a single player game, and for multiplayer, I kind of like how warframe does it, pay when you for what you can afford at the time or play skint and deal with the grind for free. Btw I have got prime accesses twice already because my favourite frames became prime.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Cosmic_Elf

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I'm just going to copy and paste my response to a thread that was exactly like this:

"Old system had it's benefits.  Same with the new.  Neither is objectively better.

You have the side that enjoyed grinding those endless missions.  and as a bonus only 1 key was used.  So less expense+ potentially more items.  However there are negatives to the old system.  for one once something was vaulted there was no way for you to use those keys to get those parts.  Another was how it impacted the player market and baro.  people could get away with inflating the prices because of how the old system behaved and not have to worry about giving up anything.  And since duplicate pieces were a plenty ducats were easy as heck to obtain.  thus making any choice brain dead easy.  Lastly this pigeon holed everyone into void only.  Don't pretend there wasn't elitism with the old system either.  people constantly complained how they wouldn't get invited for the run specifically because they didn't want to run a specific frame or build.

 

New system means you will always have access to the items inside it even if the stuff is vaulted.  Which in theory should mean prices should drop some since there isn't a huge rush to farm up the parts before vaulting.  Since you are not forced into endless missions anymore for prime part farming this means farming can be done quicker and it's generally easier to do solo.  You also have the ability to some what effect your drop chance.  which is something people have been clammering for for awhile.  The downside is that you can't "share" relics the same way.  however you can still share the reward.  and taking 4 rad relics means grouping up is important still.  Endless missions did take a hit.  But I remember they did something in TWW to make endless appealing again.  so we will see.

I'm a guy that mainly runs survival and spy missions.  So I understand the appeal of both quick farming and efficient farming.  I prefer this new system.  Though I do miss the void being relevant.  and key sharing.  Hopefully the void gets a purpose someday.  perhaps for umbras.  Key sharing was more of a convienant thing rather than a good thing.  It was helpful for those who didn't have the time to farm up the keys.  but it poorly effected the economy.  I prefer having a better economy even at the expense of some ease of use methods going away."

[(PSN)KainBethell]

Void Relics, Bigger Grind Wall? For me yes

Was the Void Keys better ? Maybe in many ways, but not all

I don’t grind I buy, so at no point have I in my two and a half years here had to grind for anything.

But I have given it a go and from my perspective if felt hard and grindy to hunt for a Relic, upgrade to enhance my chance, then run the Relic.

In contrast I use to run keys all the time (this last year it was what I logged on and did) as I loved the void as it felt different from the rest of the star map and yes I not only used my own but others tennos keys

That part of the game has disappeared for me as I don’t like the grindy feeling while doing the new system, but I feel part of what made this game feel community based for me disappeared as well.

I destroyed my own dojo and have since joined a clan to try and retain that community feeling

This game is great and I am very happy DE makes it, but the last year or so it does seem that the grind has stepped up a pace in the form of RNG overload, I hope DE rethink some aspects of the current system and the amount of RNG and grind they are using.

After all if I as a paying customer feel this way, it starts to make you question if spending money on Warframe is worth the price tag that DE put upon there PA and PAA items

[(PSN)Puckish_Rogue125]

1 hour ago, Crawd127 said:

Where did I said that 60$ is a lot of money? I bought games for 150$. But there's a real difference between buying a game and buying a very small feature within a game for the price of a full game. This isn't misconception of "60$ being a lot of money".

As I've said, and strangely, you didn't talk about that, I find better the idea of paying a game 12$ per month, than buying 2 or 3 Prime Access.

But hey, it's my opinion, we don't have to agree on everything, I don't agree with this kind of business because it's plain absurd and built around trickering naive people. I'll end with this it's not because it's a popular concept that the concept is ethically acceptable.

In response to your first paragraph, no there isnt. As i stated some people have more disposable income than others, not everyone values the dollar the same. It is a subjective thing not objective when it comes to how much you are willing to spend on what and what it is worth to you. Nor did i say you said anything, what i did was something known as sweeping generalizing statements and contextualizing for your benifit. That $150 was more than likely for some delux colletors first day preorder exclusive edition wasnt it? If it was, not exactly on topic. 

 

I didnt talk about the subscription plan because warframe isnt a subscription pay to play based game and just about every single item and cosmetic can be gotten for free with very little effort(its a video game. Moving thumbs and waiting isnt effort.) Not to mention the subscription based model is a very poor model. It works for games like wow and final fantasy because they came out when that was the standard, and they had an established playerbase when that trend began to fall. They would be even more hard pressed to get console players to pay a subscription when they need a subscription to access the online features on top of that just for playstation/xbox on top of the subscription for their ISP. So thats three subscriptions for one game..no bueno. Final fantasy can kinda get away with it because it is a very established IP with a fervent fanbase. Not to mention you are asking for a subscription for an unfinished product aka beta. Is there another successful pay to play cross platform game that im missing? Will that suffice?(not to mention very very few ppl purchase the PA every time compared to the playerbase as a whole so if every player bought one a year you are suggesting a far more expensive solution to a non issue.)

 

And as for your closing remarks. I dont think those words mean what you think they mean. These things are in no way trickery, the information is readily available via this website, DE, their partners and all of their Ninjas play free trailers as well as the storefronts that you need not spend a penny on the game in order to get just about everything aside from the PA accessories. The unethical argument is silly because its based on the grounds that a company cannot sell its product for what it chooses in an open market.

 

 

[Tsukinoki]

11 hours ago, p3z1 said:

I don't see your math, show me :)

Basic math on how the relics beat the keys:
Say you are after a specific rare part.  On keys this would of course be in a T3/T4 survival or defense (that was the only place that they added them....), on a relic this is just the rare slot of a single relic.
With the relics lets assume you're speed running those in a quick 3 minute capture or something.  Easily doable in the current system.

The numbers below are going to look at the worst case and average case numbers between the two systems:

The old key system had a 5% chance to give you a rare that the key happened to drop.  Most keys had 2-3 rare pieces in them at a time meaning that to get the one specific part you're wanting you had between a 2.5% and 1.6667% of getting what you wanted.  For the sake of this argument lets say you're lucky in that only 2 rares are on that specific key for the 20 minute mark so you have a 2.5% chance of getting it every 20 minutes.
In order to essentially "guarantee" the drop, as in get a 99% drop rate as the upper bounds for how many runs you have to do it would be 183 runs (1-0.975^182=~0.990), which would take 61 hours.  The average number of runs is 52, for a time investment of 17 hours and 20 minutes.

The current relic system has a 2% chance with intact relics to give you the rare part you're after.  And it only has one rare part at that.
In order to essentially "guarantee" the drop, as in get a 99% drop rate as the upper bounds for how many runs you have to do it would be 228 runs (1-.98^228=~0.990).  That would take just over 11 hours as the upper bounds for how long it would take to guarantee the rare.  The average number of runs is 52, for a time investment of around two and a half hours.  And this is the absolute worst case of running an intact relic solo.

Lets say you're running the intact relic in a group of 4 people.
Same number of runs to get to a 99% chance of getting the rare but now you're using 4 relics at once so its 4 times faster.  You would get to that 99% chance in around 3 hours.  The average number of runs would get you that item in under an hour.

And again those are just intact numbers where you're looking at average times of under an hour to eleven hours depending on if you're running in a group or solo.  And all without spending any traces.

Meanwhile the keys are between 17 hours to 61 hours from the average case to the worst case.

So the time investment required to farm, even at intact levels, is much, much much lower than in the key system.
Even if you include the time it takes to farm relics the time for the relic system comes out ahead.

And if you are using traces the time disparity grows even further, and even with farming with traces + relics its still a much smaller time investment then going to 20 minutes in the T3/T4 survival over and over and over and over again.
Oh and even if you decide to farm in say a survival mission in the current relic system the numbers aren't going to be much bigger.  With intact relics playing solo it would take 19 hours at the very worst case to get the item you wanted.  On average it would take 4 hours and 20 minutes.  Still quite a lot better than the old system.

I only calculated survival here for the old system as its too hard to estimate how long it could take people to get to wave 20 in defense missions

[Crawd127]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)thedarkness1962 said:

And as for your closing remarks. I dont think those words mean what you think they mean. These things are in no way trickery, the information is readily available via this website, DE, their partners and all of their Ninjas play free trailers as well as the storefronts that you need not spend a penny on the game in order to get just about everything aside from the PA accessories. The unethical argument is silly because its based on the grounds that a company cannot sell its product for what it chooses in an open market.

Oh, I do mean what I've wrote. The "Pay wall" are a trick to encourage the player to get access to content locked behind grinding. So, yes, it is a way to trick naive people. Knowing that people will want something fast, they implemented a slow way or getting something through grinding and RNG. Based on this, yes, allowing the player to buy the Prime Access and the way it's presented, since you cannot buy only the Prime Items, you have also to buy the plats and some other stuffs, it is a ruse to get more money from people who wants it fast. I'm pretty sure that people would prefer to buy only the Prime Items for, let's say 20$ instead of the whole 60$+. While bundles are fine, it should be able to get these without stuffs in the bundle.

Also, as someone who signed an ethic code for my career, it is not a silly argument since most ethical code includes a section for ethical payment which usually says to charge and accept fair and reasonable fees. Of course, we could discuss on what is fair and reasonable, but I cannot say that paying that much for a Prime Access is fair and reasonable.

It's my point of view, some share it, some don't. Life resume!