I'm Really Disappointed in the Decision to Keep Mandatory Mods

[DiabolusUrsus]

20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Hmm...

You know, Killing Floor 2 had this discussion last year. Certain weapons had stagger and knockdown and stun procs, and the fanbase HATED it. It was retooled into a "proc threshold" system. Whereas before a weapon might stagger a zombie roughly 20% of the time, it was changed to a system where roughly four consecutive shots had a guaranteed stagger proc

Think that might work for Warframe?

This would, I think, work very nicely.

It's actually part of what I had in mind. Each damage type has two effects: one guaranteed on every hit, and a more powerful one occurring at an interval.

[ShogunGunshow]

Exilus slots for weapons when.

[DiabolusUrsus]

14 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

snip

100% agree.

On the subject of polarities, they really ought to redistribute mods in accordance with the Focus school themes.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Just now, ShogunGunshow said:

Exilus slots for weapons when.

Please no. Please just fix the problem instead of trying to work around it. They're the devs. They have the power to do that.

[PatternistSlave]

2 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

More slots just compound the issue and powercreep explodes. All people would do is toss more elementals on.

How exactly is taking out all different damage types adding to customization?

[LuckyCharm]

Why not simply remove/change how energy is accumulated for warframes (zenurik,ev, etc) so gunplay is actually meaningful to start with since you can no longer spam abilities to keep things cc'd and work from there. 

Also give us some damage conversion mods please eg. slash > puncture sort of thing

[DiabolusUrsus]

4 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Why not simply remove/change how energy is accumulated for warframes (zenurik,ev, etc) so gunplay is actually meaningful to start with since you can no longer spam abilities to keep things cc'd and work from there. 

Also give us some damage conversion mods please eg. slash > puncture sort of thing

Yes please.

IMO you should only ever deal two procs per weapon: dominant physical/elemental, and those procs should not be mutually exclusive (e.g., slash + slow on the same shot).

In terms of an energy system, give us two energy bars:

A smaller bar that regenerates quickly like stamina, and a larger bar that does not regenerate like we have now. Lesser abilities consume Bar 1 and charge Bar 2 as they are used. Greater abilities (more "OP" stuff) consume Bar 2.

Other stuff that consumes Bar 1 and charges Bar 2:

• Channeling
• Guns via a mod
• Small amount from non-power kills? Idk.

Again, these problems are all contributing problems and not mutually exclusive. Fixing energy requires fixing enemy scaling and vice-versa.

[PatternistSlave]

7 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Why not simply remove/change how energy is accumulated for warframes (zenurik,ev, etc) so gunplay is actually meaningful to start with since you can no longer spam abilities to keep things cc'd and work from there. 

Also give us some damage conversion mods please eg. slash > puncture sort of thing

Because that's a different game and not one I'm interested in playing honestly.  A game about magic space ninjas to me needs at least a little OP crazy.

[DiabolusUrsus]

@NeithanDiniem

To be clear, I support designing mechanics around a degree of realism.

For example:

Instead of armor being a percent mitigation, weapons are given an armor penetration value. Too little penetration, and you can't deal damage to health. However, you can still deal damage to armor. Break the armor, you can damage health.

Let's say we're trying to kill a Lancer, and for the sake of example we're not dealing instant-kill damage like usual.

• His sealed helmet protects him from gas.
• His armor protects him from physical damage like slash and elements like poison/viral if it isn't penetrated.

We have several options for effectively killing him:

• Mod a weapon for high armor penetration so that we can ignore the fact he's wearing armor... but we sacrifice some of the damage we can deal to his health.
• Mod a weapon with corrosive so that it strips away his armor faster, but we sacrifice the ability to augment death dealing with other elements (elements should be mutually exclusive in most cases).
• Break a weaker portion of his armor (e.g., shoot off his helmet) so that our element (e.g. fire) can be put into effect on his flesh.

Assuming weapon swapping is re-worked into something resembling a fluid and enjoyable system, we can even combine different aspects of these options across our loadout.

This just isn't something I'm trying to discuss in-detail in this thread.

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Because that's a different game and not one I'm interested in playing honestly.  A game about magic space ninjas to me needs at least a little OP crazy.

What would you say to having OP options that are controlled to a more reasonable level?

I like being OP, but I don't like simply beating up on defenseless enemies suspended in the air or otherwise blinded by CC. It's not as much fun to simply hit meat-bags that don't fight back IMO.

However, let's say Focus actives were reworked into actual Warframe super-modes that let you go hog-wild and slaughter everything with reckless abandon.

Thus, you're fighting enemies relatively fairly most of the time, but you can still go all Khornate Blood-for-the-Blood God on occasion. (Of course, "cooldowns" would need to be reworked and durations would need to be adjusted, but you should get the general idea.)

Balanced most of the time, still options for OP godhood within reason.

It would make the game more rewarding and the state of OP more satisfying in my eyes.

[Volinus7]

WF slogan 

"ain't broken, no fix"

[Zebiko]

Thing is, if you remove the mandatory mods, other mods would replace them and become mandatory.

And there is the huge mess of compensating everyone with the credits and endo spent on those mods.

And if we actually had fully interchangeable mods, the current system with forma-ing doesn't support it.

Then you have the rivens mods that throws a wrench into everything.

Every time a new system is added to the game, the harder it will be to change/fix/revamp the older systems.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

The biggest problem with removing the mandatory mods is the fact that primed pressure point /point blank exist.

both outstrip their normal counterparts easily and would be a drastic loss in dmg output.

if we are allowed to keep those two while the normal ones are removed....and made inate.....imagine Tigris prime/sancti with the power of both primed point blanks.

 

it's sorta lose-lose

[Inarticulate]

The way Warframe is designed right now, there are two forms of progression with weapons. First is the progression that comes from ranking up a weapon. Second is the progression that comes from ranking up a mod. Removing the base damage mods (Serration, (Primed) Point Blank, Hornet Strike, and (Primed) Pressure Point) would completely eliminate the second form of game progression.

For a new player, the long-term progression through the game comes from ranking up the base damage mods. As a player continues to play the game, all of their weapons continually get stronger by virtue of the fact that they are obtaining new mods and ranking up older mods. This sense of progression that gives a new player a goal to work toward is completely lost if the effect of the mod is to be incorporated into ranking up the weapon, which happens on a much shorter time span.

In addition, if the effect of the base damage mods were to be incorporated into ranking up the weapon, it would actively discourage a new player from trying out new weapons. For a new player, picking up a new weapon is giving up all of the effects of their mods for a few missions. In the current state of the game, that probably amounts to a low-rank base damage mod and maybe a partially ranked elemental mod or two. This is not a big loss of effectiveness, and the player is not greatly discouraged by their weaker new weapon. If, however, the effect of the base damage mods were to be incorporated into ranking up the weapon, they would notice a much larger loss of damage compared to what they were used to with their old weapon, and this could easily be discouraging. In addition, getting the effect of a rank 10 Serration simply for ranking a weapon up to rank 30 would likely cause any weapon to be severely overpowered in the early stages of the game.

And actually, this would be similarly discouraging for a veteran player ranking up new weapons and further encourage the use of shared affinity farming over actually using the weapon to rank it up.

 

For a veteran player, the existence of the base damage mods is functionally indistinguishable from having weapons cap out at 7 mod slots and 46 mod capacity, with the first Forma giving 7 mod capacity instead of a polarized slot.

If anything is truly to blame for a lack of build diversity, it's the fact that every other damage mod has such large numbers that trading out even one mod for a utility mod causes a noticeable hit to damage output.

[(PSN)Bloodguard]

19 hours ago, ashrah said:

DE is  made good decision... i have almost 4700h in warframe... and for 100% i would leave game same day if mods get removed...

 

19 hours ago, MrFoxAos said:

honestly the amount of enemy warframe and just general nerfs and changes would drive so many people away i think they realized this :'/ lets just hope they do something good with it 

Same here 100% drive me away from warframe way too many changes to game general nerfs to warframes and this damage 3.0 if mods get removed will be sad a day for me.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

The thing about De is when you say change it and they do... you get something really, really bad, or you get something so radical that it's to the point where it completely runs over your suggestion. Then you find yourself still unhappy with results regardless of change, or no change. I've seen DeSteve defend his system in the past. He made it, he likes it, it's different from any other game for good or bad. I'm fine with the current mandatory mods demands. If it's not going to go, then fine, more Riven like changes are welcome alongside extra slots being added to loadouts, and wind up powers like we have with Syndicates, or specialized synergy perks with frame/companions abilities.  

[maddragonmaster]

ok i am going to chime in and give my 2 cents in my view of this. the current build for the most of the weapons i like are mostly weapons that people tend to say "put as much crit as you can possibly can into that weapon" and then put for your elements radiation, magnetic, and corrosive. and this hampers my fun because i want to go around with heat on some of my builds because i love to use fire in most of the games i play. i find fun to see the enemies that i go up against burst into fire and the proceed to be reduced into ashes. but i can't do that because i need to put things like crit into the weapons like venka prime in order to have effectiveness and to not hamper any other players. and then this also ruins my enjoyment with chroma because at the right now it is recommended to put as much power strength and duration as you can, while range gets completely gimped because of it. so i can't go around a setting everything a blazed and feel like a freaking dragon. 

what de can do is try to open some more paths players can go without horribly gimping their enjoyment. i say just remove or replace the main damage mods like pressure point, hornet strike, serration, point blank and what de can do is is just tie in the main damage in with the weapon so each level of the weapon boosts its main stats. just like they have with the frames right now. its no rocket science that would be a logical way of going at it. just leave physical and elemental damage in mods, turn things like blood rush weeping wounds into arcanes and then have weapons arcane able. that would very help us with giving us more costomazation while still having us need to have certain builds. frames already have this stuff so why isn't there weapon exclusive acanes yet? or why isn't the overall damage increase not in the weapons levels itself? why isnt crits and status rewarded when you are leveled? whats the point in leveling a weapon besides getting more mod capacity? there is no boosts in damage, crit, or status in any of the levels and the levels itself feel empty

[Azrael]

23 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

the one overriding goal is to eliminate as much of that randomness as possible.

I rarely worry about this. I worry about the average dps, not the deviation from it. In some situations randomness should be avoided, such as stealth missions where failing to one-shot someone is bad, but overall I don't know anyone who makes non-randomness their main goal.

 

23 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Using heat feels the same as using cold feels the same as using toxin feels the same as using radiation feels the same as using corrosive feels the same as using electricity.

Not if you're using status chance,

 

23 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

There's also the small problem of mods being random and monetized.

I don't understand this. How are mods monetized?

[PatternistSlave]

19 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

What would you say to having OP options that are controlled to a more reasonable level?

I like being OP, but I don't like simply beating up on defenseless enemies suspended in the air or otherwise blinded by CC. It's not as much fun to simply hit meat-bags that don't fight back IMO.

However, let's say Focus actives were reworked into actual Warframe super-modes that let you go hog-wild and slaughter everything with reckless abandon.

Thus, you're fighting enemies relatively fairly most of the time, but you can still go all Khornate Blood-for-the-Blood God on occasion. (Of course, "cooldowns" would need to be reworked and durations would need to be adjusted, but you should get the general idea.)

Balanced most of the time, still options for OP godhood within reason.

It would make the game more rewarding and the state of OP more satisfying in my eyes.

I'm all for variety and overemphasis on gunplay is not conducive to that.

[Troll_Logic]

23 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You need certain mods to survive and succeed against the most challenging enemies the game has to offer. Let me rephrase that: You need those mods if you want to avoid a frustrating over-reliance on teammates and an infuriating frequency of cheap near-instant deaths. This isn't necessarily wrong, but the modding system is presented as a customization system, so it rankles to be told you should have one thing when it clearly isn't given to you.

Well, yeah.  Of course certain generic mods are always going to be useful.  I don't see any way around that, why there should be. or why anyone would want that.

23 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Randomized combat mechanics suck.

Setting aside the entertainment value of proc effects and critical damage, what makes procs and crits fun? Do players get some sort of thrill out of rolling dice on every shot to see if their weapons do what they want? I don't think so. The proof is in the fact that when modding for status or critical damage, the one overriding goal is to eliminate as much of that randomness as possible. What is the point of a random system if all you try to do is make it non-random?

How do you expect to get rid of that?  Do you expect every shot to apply the same amount of damage each time?

23 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Enemies define builds, not playstyles.

My A, B, and C loadouts are currently dedicated to Grineer, Corpus, and Infested respectively. The loadouts aren't really distinguished by how each weapon handles, just the damage mods I stick on them.

Well, yeah.  It's the whole "certain groups of enemies have different weaknesses and strengths" thing.

23 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Previously, forgetting to switch loadouts meant suffering a frustrating level of ineffectiveness against anything but the weakest enemies. Not because I didn't have the skill to shoot weak points, not because I had a hard time keeping myself safe and alive, but because I didn't bring the right cards on my gun.

I've never understood that.  I've never built separate builds for each class of enemies and I've done just fine.  It's not that I think I'm some kind of special player.  I just don't think it matters that much.

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

8 hours ago, Azrael said:

I rarely worry about this. I worry about the average dps, not the deviation from it. In some situations randomness should be avoided, such as stealth missions where failing to one-shot someone is bad, but overall I don't know anyone who makes non-randomness their main goal.

 

Not if you're using status chance,

 

I don't understand this. How are mods monetized?

1. Don't try to tell me that effectively modding for crit doesn't emphasize increasing crit chance.

2. It'd be nice if there weren't a bunch of staggers and puncture procs I didn't need mixed in though.

3. The trade market. Players selling mods for platinum is equivalent to DE monetizing the mods. Sure, it's more convenient for players, but that just means two separate parties are making money off of them. Of course that's going to affect some... motivations when it comes to advocating for changes.

7 hours ago, PatternistSlave said:

I'm all for variety and overemphasis on gunplay is not conducive to that.

Not quite sure I follow on an "overemphasis on gunplay." Powers just need to not be cast constantly. When the enemies have a chance to fight back we can have fair enemies. Until then, cheese will be used to trump cheese and nothing else. Don't see much variety in that, personally. If you're not spam-casting CC you still have guns and melee with plenty of differentiation, and it's not like powers will be removed. Just moderated.

7 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Well, yeah.  Of course certain generic mods are always going to be useful.  I don't see any way around that, why there should be. or why anyone would want that.

How do you expect to get rid of that?  Do you expect every shot to apply the same amount of damage each time?

Well, yeah.  It's the whole "certain groups of enemies have different weaknesses and strengths" thing.

I've never understood that.  I've never built separate builds for each class of enemies and I've done just fine.  It's not that I think I'm some kind of special player.  I just don't think it matters that much.

 

1. See all other examples where this argument has been exhausted in this very thread. It's not about eliminating the "best" mods. It's about narrowing the gap so that it's not quite so dumb to choose something else.

2. Er, enemy-specific weak-points. Like the head, or something different where applicable. A la Borderlands.

3. You're ignoring the fact where my issue with that is that there's no reason to use the gun any differently. Why do we care about whether we're using radiation or magnetic if there are no compelling gameplay changes and no real difference between fighting Grineer or Corpus? The "different loadouts optimized for different factions" isn't the problem. It's that there's no real difference in how those loadouts work.

4. It's gotten better as of late, but it's not as though there's some sort of tremendous benefit to leaving things the way they are.

[-Fe-McHamm3rShot]

19 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

 

WF slogan 

"ain't broken, no fix"

 

Pretty sure it's:

WF Slogan

"Oh sheit, we broke it.. no fix"  

:)

[(PSN)VariantX7]

I'm probably going to suggest something that's probably insane. Elementals should add NO damage whatsoever. What they should do is alter the properties of the weapon does on hit and be about their statuses and their base natures. But of course this is insane.

[Azrael]

2 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

1. Don't try to tell me that effectively modding for crit doesn't emphasize increasing crit chance.

This has nothing to do with removing RNG. People increase crit chance because that's what's best for their average dps, not to avoid randomness. If people wanted to avoid randomness, they would remove crit mods, not add them. Relying only on damage mods often decreases dps but increases reliability. This may be desirable in stealth missions, but is not the usual approach. The fact that most builds are crit builds shows that players are not concerned with RNG damage.

 

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

2. It'd be nice if there weren't a bunch of staggers and puncture procs I didn't need mixed in though.

Some people appreciate those. Anyway, removing them would be a huge buff to status weapons.

 

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

3. The trade market. Players selling mods for platinum is equivalent to DE monetizing the mods.

Not really. By this logic, the only way to avoid "monetizing" everything is to remove trading altogether. DE monetizes weapons by making them take a while to get, then selling them for plat. But the trading of mods is done entirely by players, DE's only part is to allow trading at all.

[Vilmera]

On 07.01.2017 at 7:38 PM, DiabolusUrsus said:

At least, how I am interpreting this decision. By avoiding the issue of potentially compensating players for lost "equipment," you are turning away from perhaps the most promising change of development direction I have heard out of you to date.

What is wrong with Damage 2.0?

First and foremost, the modding "customization" system is not customization. It is progression.

...

Randomized combat mechanics suck.

...

Enemies define builds, not playstyles.

...

Taking all of this into consideration, simply adding new enemies isn't going to fix the problem for as long as the EXISTING enemies remain. We can't simply write them off as a non-issue.

Please keep in mind that this is not a comprehensive list of problems with the system; it is an outline of the more major ones and it is intended to explain why simply adding new conte- I mean new enemies is not going to fix the problems with your existing mechanics.

so... do you have any thoughts of how it should looks, to be "customisation" not "progression"?