Sortie defense target should be replaced with a static object

[SeaUrchins]

There are 3 factors that contribute to making any sortie defense potentially easier than a regular defense mission versus same level/faction enemies:

• sortie defense target can be armed;
• sortie defense target is affected by more warframe healing powers (I say 'more' because I am not sure if night Equi can heal cryopod, though why would you have a night equinox in defense in the first place instead of maimquinox);
• sortie defense target has smaller hitbox (well, yea);
• sortie defense target is potentially immortal (with Blessing Trinity, Safeguard Switch Loki, Invisible Arrow Ivara or meta Banish Limbo);
• sortie defense target is mobile and can be strategically placed in locations unreachable by enemies (which causes them to stand at their spawn points in despair);
• sortie defense target is potentially undying (it enters bleedout state when its health reaches 0 and has aggro reset to 0).

While the cryopod is big, can't move, doesn't fight back, can't be healed by most warframes, once it's dead it's mission failed message.

The reasonable question is: why sorties, viewed by many players as "end game" content or "missions with advanced difficulty", have easier defense? You need as little as a huras and a frame dealing some damage and you can stay permanently stay cloaked killing enemies and resurrecting defense target, which wouldn't work vs same enemy levels/faction if you were defending the cryopod.

I say replace the guy with a cryopod, going John Rambo with a Lato is silly to begin with.

 

3 minutes ago, SeaUrchins said:

A mobile target without immortality. Cryopod with legs would be epic. Like that corpus roller with nullifier field, that'd be fun to defend.

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by SeaUrchins

[CherryPauper]

NO

[LogaMC1995]

Sortie defense was just about defending a cryopod, but DE changed it to an agent, coz static objective can be easily done with a Frost.

[Airwolfen]

the static objective sorties were actually easier then the current walking target.

[SeaUrchins]

1 minute ago, Airwolfen said:

the static objective sorties were actually easier then the current walking target.

Nothing can be easier than defending a person who is basicly immortal.

[Kaotyke]

What is more annoying and harder to manage?

A static target that doesnt do anything?

Or a mobile target that keeps running into enemy fire and doest stand still?

[SeaUrchins]

2 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

What is more annoying and harder to manage?

A mobile target without immortality. Cryopod with legs would be epic. Like that corpus roller with nullifier field, that'd be fun to defend.

Edited February 20, 2017 by SeaUrchins

[6KIRA9]

static objects can easily done!

once i did it with frost, been globing for the first 7 waves, didn't let it go lower than 97%, and the last 3 waves i didn't cast it once, we ended with 66% health on globe, so yeah

loki disarm + vauban repelling bastile

limbo with max duration min range and cast 4th on defense object, all you gotta do is prevent enemies from coming too close

and there are other ways with mesa or other frames, the point is that static objectif is easy too, but we'de like a new challenge for sortie so we won't get bored, that's where the guy comes, of course it still can be easy, but at least it's something new !

Note: put sonicor on him and enjoy watching him throwing enemies away XD

[(PSN)robotwars7]

except the target also:

- goes down all the time

- wanders into gunfire

- never stops moving

- draws agro, which is fine until Scorches and Supras turn up, at which point they just get downed even more often

- can't be easily protected by spamming Snow globes and Ravenous gardens in the same spot over.

it is actually harder defending him, because you're basically babysitting, not defending. it's a rescue mission without the Breakout part. the AI on the guy is so dumb that it's infuriating.

defense process with a cryopod:

- kill enemies and defend the pod

Defense process with Hostage:

Kill Enemies, defend the guy and make sure to keep an eye on him, all whole getting shot.

and let's be real, players will still find ways to cheese it, even if it was changed.

 

[Xardis]

Maybe mix it up a bit? Not replace. Have a static or mobile subject, set when generating new sorites. It gets boring when you only defend mobile one.

[(XBOX)LoneRyder3926]

How about both?

[6KIRA9]

1 minute ago, Xardis said:

Maybe mix it up a bit? Not replace. Have a static or mobile subject, set when generating new sorites. It gets boring when you only defend mobile one.

that may be good too, i wouldn't mind it, change the rootine

[Chipputer]

Neither option is very good for sorties.

Static? Cheese it with Frost, Disarm Loki, Nova.
Mobile? Cheese it with frames that can heal it, Limbo, or Zephyr.

Both are too easy. It's even easier when you realize that you can just give the Operative some CE Gas Hikou (Prime), roll your Zephyr or Frost, and let them do all the killing for you.

[Kaotyke]

3 minutes ago, SeaUrchins said:

A mobile target without immortality. Cryopod with legs would be epic. Like that corpus roller with nullifier field, that'd be fun to defend.

I just imagined the pod running with stick legs.

[The__Q]

5 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Neither option is very good for sorties.

Static? Cheese it with Frost, Disarm Loki, Nova.
Mobile? Cheese it with frames that can heal it, Limbo, or Zephyr.

Both are too easy. It's even easier when you realize that you can just give the Operative some CE Gas Hikou (Prime), roll your Zephyr or Frost, and let them do all the killing for you.

Both are quite easy, however, what about :

 

13 minutes ago, (Xbox One)BlackcoatOne said:

How about both?

Both at once?

 

Think about it, the cheese required for just cryopod is frost/vauban, the cheese required for hostage target is just limbo/ a weapon.

 

What about forcing the team to split up and do multiple objectives, (ie having 2 cryopods and a mobile target, etc) and actually worry about individual strength instead of having the perfect comp?

Edited February 20, 2017 by The__Q

[Chipputer]

Just now, The__Q said:

Both at once?

What would be the point of that?

Two different failure states would be unmanageable in public sortie runs without one player carrying the entire team (and even then it might still not work with one target being static) and requiring both to die to fail would just return you to square one (SEE: Archwing Dual-Defense).

[Airwolfen]

25 minutes ago, SeaUrchins said:

Nothing can be easier than defending a person who is basicly immortal.

Oh yes it can. the current target makes you move around at least. 100% more effort then the static point had.

You sat in a frost bubble. that was all you had to do with the old defence.

It was never a problem of the target getting killed. never failed a defence sortie. Old or new. But new is still more work then the old one ever was. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Airwolfen

[Miser_able]

The operative is easy until it's a kuva defense and the target walks into the flame thrower. 

[Hypernaut1]

Sortie defense or like babysitting that toddler from the animaniacs cartoon.

The need to give the a.i. a bit of a purpose. I think defending a.i. in mobile defense missions would be intense. You would have to escort the target to each node to hack, then escort him to exit. 

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, SeaUrchins said:

Nothing can be easier than defending a person who is basicly immortal.

Except when that inmortal is a moron who WILL walk into Radiation fields, magnetic bubbles, fire, poison clouds etc etc etc making any revival attemt suicidal.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Nazrethim

[SeaUrchins]

8 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You would have to escort the target to each node to hack

And his soul gets inside the terminal lmao:

Spoiler

 

 

[Eldamil]

Sortie operative has one pretty important "redeeming" quality:  he is willing to do anything to die. Like, really, I bet he deeply resents that he cannot die straight up without bleedout period. I've seen him walk into flamethrowers, gas filled corridors, a hail of bullets coming from all sides, inside a goddamn boulder so we can't revive him, a cluster of handy Sapping Osprey mines. 
Could the cryopod be more fun than this little a**hole? I doubt so.

[Helljack84]

Ah, I get your point. Sorry, my fail. 

Well, defending a static objective with finite health vs our kind of immortal suicidal brainwashed hostage operative...can be rather easy/hard depending on the setup.

If you look at the big picture you're still killing x amount of enemies in a given timeframe while defending something. 

I understand that you're not satisfied with the biggest threat being kind of annoying instead of oops, try again. But that might be the whole point...kind of more fun than just the regular cheese. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Helljack84
Fail

[SeaUrchins]

15 minutes ago, Helljack84 said:

What? You don't like our suicidal buddy with stockholm syndrome?

I dislike him potentially being able to take infinite amount of damage, which degrades a defence mission to an extermination with occasional revives for a downed target.

Yes, I don't think it is any fun if enemies have zero chance of winning.

11 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

Oh yes it can. 

No, basicly immortal/undying target is easier to defend by its definition. The amount of running around is utterly irrelevant, re-read the part of my post about moving the target to a location not accessible by the enemies.

@Chipputer anything can be cheesed in WF, yet the thread is "defending a target with limited durability is harder than a target with unlimited durability".

Edited February 20, 2017 by SeaUrchins

[Airwolfen]

12 minutes ago, SeaUrchins said:

No, basicly immortal/undying target is easier to defend by its definition. The amount of running around is utterly irrelevant, re-read the part of my post about moving the target to a location not accessible by the enemies.

So what If you can revive the target endlessly. There was no need to heal or revive a pod that received almost no damage at all because of Snow Globe. Sorry but you put way too much emphasis on the -ressing the target- part that you hardly see what a teams function is within the mission.

(Should changes be made? probably. Something like a res cap on the target would be an idea that could function. can be done without overhauling the mission and makes it so the target has finite health.)

That what is actually easier though is turtelling in one place. It allows the team to set op a static defence line. Enemy movement is predictable after wave 1 so you can cover all directions in advance. Every wave is almost one of the same, just a bit higher level.