Some love for the semiauto rifles and snipers!

[DrBorris]

Because I am bored and haven't used my fancy Excel damage calculator in awhile, let's take a real in-depth look at some of these numbers.

 

Reference Weapons

Soma Prime

• Burst DPS: 17437
• Sustained DPS: 13491
• Headshot Sustained: 52667
• Headshot TTK Lvl 80 Bombard (Not counting status) 7.57 Seconds

Aklex Prime

• Burst DPS: 43762
• Sustained DPS: 29162
• Headshot Sustained: 111651
• Headshot TTK Lvl 80 Bombard: 3.06 Seconds

 

I am just going to pick and choose some weapons, if you'd like me to do the full list just ask.

Latron

• Burst DPS: 11598
• Sustained DPS: 6856
• Headshot Sustained: 24885
• Headshot TTK Lvl 40 Bombard: 1.9 Seconds

Latron Prime

• Burst DPS: 23610
• Sustained DPS: 15977
• Headshot Sustained: 61658
• Headshot TTK Lvl 80 Bombard: 5.2 Seconds (With a 2.5x crit multiplier it is 4.2)

Zenith

• Burst DPS: 23361
• Sustained DPS: 19155
• Headshot Sustained: 76622
• Headshot TTK Lvl 80 Bombard: 5.1 Seconds (With a 2.5x crit multiplier it is 4.1)

Lanka

• You broke the calculator :/

Rubico

• Burst DPS: 41497
• Sustained DPS: 24105
• Headshot Sustained: 96421
• Headshot TTK Lvl 80 Bombard: 3.1 Seconds

Vulkar Wraith

• Burst DPS: 30738
• Sustained DPS: 20663
• Headshot Sustained: 82658
• Headshot TTK Lvl 80 Bombard: 4.2 Seconds

 

So here is my analysis. To anyone saying that any of the above changes are OP, they are not. Semi-auto weapons have a naturally lower effective DPS than auto weapons, so they should theoretically be able to beat out Soma Prime in a pure DPS contest. And when you throw Aklex Prime into the mix, everything looks horrible. If anything I would say Aklex Prime should be the gold standard for semi-auto weapons. These things said, reducing the crit multipliers on some of the weapons is unnecessary IMO, even with the higher crit multipliers nothing can touch Aklex (which I would say most do not find "OP").

And I do know that status is not calculated into those numbers above, but status is largely irrelevant for semi-auto weapons. Unless they are an insanely high status chance slash based weapon, status necessitates a high rate of fire to be worthwhile (So this is makes Soma Prime effectively better than the above number comparisons).

And no, hip-fire would not be OP, look above at the stats for proof.

[Gizogin]

I've never seen any credible evidence for the Grinlok having a "dud round". It's my most-used weapon, and I've never seen a shot miss that shouldn't have.

Other than that, I like your suggestions. Especially the sniper stuff. Maybe then I'd actually use the things after ranking them up.

[(PSN)Flatulent_Draco]

Also ALL snipers need passive punch through cause they fire off heavy rounds.

[mrrobotto67]

Oh sorry XD 50% on crit chance XD

[Fari]

Disagree on trading crit damage for crit chance on stuff like Latron series, either don't buff the chance as much or not at all if that's what it takes to reduce the multipliers.

I'd rather have guns with good multipliers than constant red crits.

Not sure about some of the other suggestions either, but I do want semi auto buffs regardless.

[MudShadow]

I think Snipers in general are pretty good weapons. The only buff I would ask for is a increased magazine size on some of the 2/3 shot snipers and also for the Sniper combo meter to have an innate 8-10 second duration.

[Azamagon]

On 2017-04-26 at 1:24 AM, Elvangreen said:

Good point on the hipfire, but the old problem was no-one would ever use the scope.. maybe just make it accurate to about 15-25m hipfire? (i don't want it to make the semi-autos redundant)

With your lowed reload, slapping depleted reload would give you incredible fire rate, as while there would be a pause between shots, there would never be a big reload interruption. Overall it looks like it would make the normal vectis redundant with its faster reload, bigger damage, higher crit chance, more punchthrough, and bigger mag.

As for the rubico, i think adding status would not really help, it would be better to focus on its strengths and add say one more round to its mag, keeping it a heavy burst-fire rifle with high potential damage and low status. (maybe making reload 2 sec)

And 1m is what i wanted for the rubico.. its just that you had listed 0.5, and personally i see no problem with it being swapped to puncture if needed.

Overall, good to see you have solid reasoning backing up the proposed changes.

EDIT: harkonar scope allows a constant 2-3x combo multi on the rubico with ease.

That's what I meant with improving the hipfire! Usable in short range, as an emergency clearaway :)

Well... Vectis Prime IS supposed to make the normal vectis feel somewhat redundant you know? :P

The Rubico graphically has a 5-round drum mag, so making it 6 by default would be weird. I was considering giving it 10 (a multiple of 5) and keeping the reload very long, but I thought that then it'd feel too similar to the Vulkar (Wraith).

Also, sorry, I actually meant 0,5 meters, but I guess 1m would be fine too *shrugs* Just have in mind that Rubico is one of the hardest hitting Snipers already, giving it too high PT and it might obsolete too many of the other Snipers' strengths.

 

On 2017-04-26 at 3:19 PM, Littleman88 said:

I'm for many of these changes.  I'd say that maybe the Latrons should have a slightly increased firing rate too as a staple semi-auto rifle line up in Warframe.  It's a horde shooter, and for semi-auto's they're already fairly lacking in the DPS department compared to the fully automatic rifles, which have magazine capacity, fire rate, DPS, barely any recoil, reload speed, etc.  In short, semi-autos really have nothing on fully automatics except that they're clumsier to use and a bit more ammo efficient.  Ammo efficiency is a moot point - ammo pads.  Don't even need Carrier for ammo troubles, just saves a gear slot.

Their firing rate is more than good enough on the Latrons imo, and is actually too high already when recoil is considered. You need to mod for something on your own too ya know, so slapping in a Speed Trigger or Shred (Shred is highly recommended) is prolly something you should consider trying then :)

On 2017-04-26 at 3:41 PM, (PS4)DBR87 said:

Considering Latron Wraith and Latron Prime fire rate currently, none need over 35% crit. With 40% base crit chance Wraith would sit at a modded 100% and slotting in Argon would make it red crit as much as a bow. Soma P and Dex Sybaris have 30% and 35% and I think that's all the Wraith would need. They can still red crit, but you have to work more for it and they don't red crit as much as Dread or Paris Prime.

I think Latron Prime would do better with a 30% status and 20% crit buff. Still, I use both Latron's and they seem fine to me. Snipers could use some QoL buffs definitely.

Their fire rate is hard to make use of considering their recoil. And, that considered, giving them reliable damage upon going for slowfiring headshots, a critchance buff is more than warranted imo.
If you mod for Argon Scope, you're gonna rely heavily on RNG for those redcrits AND you are using a modslot for that randomized strength, which can be used for reliable elemental mods and whatnot instead. Remember that modslots are VERY precious for critweapons, especially the slowfiring semiautos (as they are more in need for Punchthrough and other QoL mods than rapidfiring ones).
Dex Sybaris is another weapon that could go with a base 40% critchance (and regular one maybe with 30% or so). It's a slowfiring precision rifle with high accuracy and low recoil, and yet it's not something I'd call OP. But we have to rely on RNG for it which, imo, really bothers me. Slow precision rifles should be properly and constantly rewarded for correct useage; RNG on crits goes against that. Which is also a big reason why Snipers are hated so much.
And the Somas having 30% is more than enough considering its massively higher RoF.

22 hours ago, DrBorris said:

-snip-

Very interesting numbers, thanks for those!
And ummm... sorry about what the Lanka did! xD
Please, go ahead with all of the weapons :)

17 hours ago, Gizogin said:

I've never seen any credible evidence for the Grinlok having a "dud round". It's my most-used weapon, and I've never seen a shot miss that shouldn't have.

Other than that, I like your suggestions. Especially the sniper stuff. Maybe then I'd actually use the things after ranking them up.

Has happened to me multiple times. Mind you, I dunno if they have fixed this bug yet, but in case they haven't, I wanted to remind them of it :)
Thanks for liking the suggestions :)

16 hours ago, (PS4)Benjamin_Draco said:

Also ALL snipers need passive punch through cause they fire off heavy rounds.

Already covered...

15 hours ago, mrrobotto67 said:

Oh sorry XD 50% on crit chance XD

That'd go against what I said about the scopes being just utility. Also, that'd be too strong with the other buffs, methinks.

12 hours ago, Oktavia said:

Disagree on trading crit damage for crit chance on stuff like Latron series, either don't buff the chance as much or not at all if that's what it takes to reduce the multipliers.

I'd rather have guns with good multipliers than constant red crits.

Not sure about some of the other suggestions either, but I do want semi auto buffs regardless.

The critdamage reduction was to make sure to not buff their overall DPS too much. But if they wouldn't be too powerful, keep the multipliers as they are, ALONG with the critchance buffs (which seems to be just fine according to DrBorris' calculations).

And as a counterargument: I'd rather have reliable weapons than randomly powerful ones (I personally tend to not mod for redcrits, fyi)

Glad you agreed about them getting buffs though :)

11 hours ago, MudShadow said:

I think Snipers in general are pretty good weapons. The only buff I would ask for is a increased magazine size on some of the 2/3 shot snipers and also for the Sniper combo meter to have an innate 8-10 second duration.

Well, I guess we have differing opinions... sort of?

Edited April 27, 2017 by Azamagon
Spelling and stuff

[Lost_Cartographer]

43 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

Their firing rate is more than good enough on the Latrons imo, and is actually too high already when recoil is considered. You need to mod for something on your own too ya know, so slapping in a Speed Trigger is prolly something you should consider trying then :)

Their fire rate is hard to make use of considering their recoil. And, that considered, giving them reliable damage upon going for slowfiring headshots, a critchance buff is more than warranted imo.

I'd rather just use a fully automatic primary and the lex prime with fire rate mods + reload speed + recoil reduction (already do!)  WAY more bang for my buck.  I don't even have barrel diffusion installed and it still trashes on the Latron Prime's damage output.  The Latron absolutely needs a recoil reduction and either a RoF or damage increase to be justifiable against a Soma prime or Braton prime.  Which btw, can crit and head shot.  One very, very often in fact.

 

Honestly though, I'd rather everything just got two more mod slots, even if they have to be maintained somehow (through reasonable means, not f***ing sorties or trials.)  Sure sure, "overpowered" and "people will just through on more damage mods!"  I figure after the star chart's levels, extra power is overkill.  What's the difference between one shotting something with 1000 damage hits and one shotting something with 2000 damage hits?  For that matter, what does it matter if someone can go one hour into an endless easily, or two hours?

Edited April 27, 2017 by Littleman88

[Kainosh]

On 24.04.2017 at 10:03 PM, Azamagon said:

General sniper rifles changes
* Scopes bonuses removed. The scopes are supposed to be utility for the sake of being able to have variable combat distances. Making it tie into stats makes people prone to use it as a statbooster, instead of the utility it is meant to be.
* Combo bonuses removed. It's unfitting and not very helpful, as it leads to a very odd and stressful gameplay with Snipers.
Note that these two losses are compensated for by giving them more RELIABLE damage, in the form of increased critical chances. THAT was their problem, not their overall damage.
* Scope sway removed. No other weapon has sway when you aim, it's pointless to give Snipers this penalty. If needed for Conclave though, then so be it.
* Hipfire accuracy improved. They don't need to have perfect aim when used with hipfire, but their current penalties are rather ridiculous. Tone those penalties down please.
* All Snipers now have innate and variable amounts of punchthrough (Lanka and the Snipetrons have already, in case you didn't know)

Lanka
* Firing mode - Autocharge. What this means is that it will charge automatically when not firing. Simple press the firing button to release your current charge at will! Damage dealt is now also linear to chargetime, rather than how it works now (either 150 or 525, with nothing in between). Note: The autocharge feature is affected by fire rate mods, meaning it remains very similar to how it is now, just with some QoL on the triggering.

 

I agree with this only.    Scope bonus should be applied as a constant effect....No other buffs are needed really.

 

 

[Mattoropael]

I think snipers should retain the scoped bonus, but not a multi-stage scoped bonus where higher power zoom provides a bigger bonus. Just apply the current max zoom bonus across the board to retain an incentive for users to zoom in, but not to punish users for not zooming all the way in.

With that in place, hipfire accuracy can be improved to make it a decent emergency option or for trash mob clearing, complementing the full-powered scoped fire.

[(XBOX)Godlike13]

Yes, buff the Dex Syb 

[Azamagon]

Added a suggestion to revamp Harkonar Scope too: Now, at max rank, it would instead give +40% Dead Aim (meaning, a buff to TOTAL damage while you aim). This would be stackable with the Vulkar's Lasting Purity. (additively, as expected, for a total of +100% Dead Aim).

[dan.io.wal]

On 4/24/2017 at 2:34 PM, Kalvorax said:

alot of these ideas are great for sure. but the latron changes (all varaiants)...one version is crit focused while the other version is status focused, i forget which one off hand as i only have prime and wraith variants.....so why so much focus on a crit stats that falls off on anything not over level 40...

as for snipers, i kind of hope we eventually get one that is SLASH focused, we have way too many that are impact or Puncture....kind of think the Rubico (that was the tenno one right?) could be changed to slash focus...as that would be good for your proposed crit increase.

Latron wraith is crit, latron prime is status. 

 

On 4/26/2017 at 8:41 AM, (PS4)DBR87 said:

Considering Latron Wraith and Latron Prime fire rate currently, none need over 35% crit. With 40% base crit chance Wraith would sit at a modded 100% and slotting in Argon would make it red crit as much as a bow. Soma P and Dex Sybaris have 30% and 35% and I think that's all the Wraith would need. They can still red crit, but you have to work more for it and they don't red crit as much as Dread or Paris Prime.

I think Latron Prime would do better with a 30% status and 20% crit buff. Still, I use both Latron's and they seem fine to me. Snipers could use some QoL buffs definitely.

^This <3 I would love that Latron Prime change. It's one of my two favorite primaries in game (other being the Zhuge) but the 30% status and 20% crit would be wonderous with my current hybrid build. 

[Gravitus123]

On 4/24/2017 at 9:03 PM, Azamagon said:

I really like semiauto rifles. In Warframe, these rifles could need some buffs so they fit better for the now more hectic gamepace of Warframe, which would come mainly in the form of better reliability and QoL buffs. That also includes the Snipers.

I'll just get straight to my numerical suggestions:

The semi-auto rifles:

Latron
* Reload time - Down from 2,4s to 1,9s
* Critical chance - Up from 10% to 20%
Note: Doesn't need much upgrading, considering it's a starter weapon. But the slow reload is very cumbersome.

Latron Wraith
* Reload time - Down from 2,4s to 1,75s
* Magazine size - Up from 15 to 20
* Critical chance - Up from 25% to 40%
* Critical multiplier - Down from 2,5x to 2x (to compensate for the chancebuff)
* Recoil - Reduced by about 50% or so
Note: This is to really make it feel like the spammy upgrade of the Latron family

Latron Prime
* Reload time - Down from 2,4s to 1,9s
* Magazine size - Up from 15 to 20
* Critical chance - Up from 15% to 30%
* Critical multiplier - Down from 2,5x to 2x (to compensate for the chancebuff)
* Recoil - Reduced by about 25% or so
Note: Mainly some QoL upgrades, and giving it more reliability.

Grinlok
* Reload time - Down from 2,1s to 1,7s
* Rate of fire - Up from 1,67 to 2,25
* Magazine size - Up from 6 to 8 (same could be done to the regular Marelok, for fairness)
* Damage - Up from 120 to 135
* Critical chance - Up from 15% to 22,5% (101,25% crit chance if you mod it with both Point Strike and Deadly Sequence!)
* QoL fix - Remove the random "dud rounds"
Note: Some of these buffs could also be for a potential upgrade version, like as a Wraith or Prisma, but then I'd suggest to add some mild innate punchthrough to it too, since it is VERY restricted in mod-space for even something like Shred to fit in, which also gives it a crowd-aiding counterpart to the Vaykor Marelok's syndicate AoE-proc. Then a magsize of 10 would also be in order, methinks :)

Zenith
This is more of a revamp suggestion than just numerical changes, but bare with me:
*** Primary fire stats
* Firing mode - Semiauto, at all times (fullauto mechanic is removed)
* Rate of fire - Up from ~0,66 to 1,9
* Magazine size - Down from 90 (technically 18) to 12
* Damage - Up from 120 to 150
* Critical chance - Up from 22% to 40%
* Critical multiplier - Down from 2,5x to 2x (to compensate for the chance- and damagebuff)
* Status chance - Down from 8% to 5%
* Ammo reserves - Reduced from 540 to 240
*** Secondary fire stats
* No longer alters your firing mode, it is purely deployed for the wallhack function
* Disc directly attaches to what it hits, instead of bouncing around first
* Duration remaining shows in your UI like a buff (as it does for the Zenistar)
Note: Yes, make this a dedicated "railgun" semiauto, borderlining into a Sniper kind of rifle! The fullauto is honestly not really needed (as there are already a TON of fullauto weapons in the game). Besides, this change also gives it a feel of complementing the rapid/AoE nature of the Azima and Zenistar.
 

The Sniper rifles:

General sniper rifles changes
* Scopes bonuses removed. The scopes are supposed to be utility for the sake of being able to have variable combat distances. Making it tie into stats makes people prone to use it as a statbooster, instead of the utility it is meant to be.
* Combo bonuses removed. It's unfitting and not very helpful, as it leads to a very odd and stressful gameplay with Snipers.
Note that these two losses are compensated for by giving them more RELIABLE damage, in the form of increased critical chances. THAT was their problem, not their overall damage.
* Scope sway removed. No other weapon has sway when you aim, it's pointless to give Snipers this penalty. If needed for Conclave though, then so be it.
* Hipfire accuracy improved. They don't need to have perfect aim when used with hipfire, but their current penalties are rather ridiculous. Tone those penalties down please.
* All Snipers now have innate and variable amounts of punchthrough (Lanka and the Snipetrons have already, in case you didn't know)
* EDIT: The mod Harkonar Scope would thus also need a change. My suggestion would be: At max rank, it adds +40% Dead Aim (meaning, buffing TOTAL damage while aiming). This would be stackable with the Vulkar's Lasting Purity. (additively, as expected, for a total of +100% Dead Aim).

Lanka
* Firing mode - Autocharge. What this means is that it will charge automatically when not firing. Simple press the firing button to release your current charge at will! Damage dealt is now also linear to chargetime, rather than how it works now (either 150 or 525, with nothing in between). Note: The autocharge feature is affected by fire rate mods, meaning it remains very similar to how it is now, just with some QoL on the triggering.
* Critical chance - Up from 25% to 50%
Note: With this Lanka remains the hardest hitting sniper, but still also the slowest of them all.

Rubico
* Reload time - Down from 3s to 1,85s
* Critical chance - Up from 25% to 45%
* Punchthrough - Up from 0m to 0,5m
Note: This keeps the Rubico as one of the hardest hitting Snipers due to its massive critical multiplier (and now, also very high crit chance) along with moderate punchthrough, but comes at the cost of STILL having a rather long reloadtime (considering its magsize) and has the lowest status chance of all Snipers by a big margin.

Snipetron
* Rate of fire - Up from 1,5 to 1,75
* Magazine size - Up from 4 to 5
* Reload time - Down from 3,5s to 1,5s
* Critical chance - Up from 25% to 30%
* Critical multiplier - Up from 1,5x to 2x
* Ammo reserves - Increased from 72 to 100
* Recoil - Reduced by about 50% or so
Note: The Snipetron family becomes the "spammier" and agile Snipers, with great punchthrough, quick reload, a slightly higher rof and lower recoil and more total ammo. However, magsize and damage are on the lower end of things.

Snipetron Vandal
* Rate of fire - Up from 1,5 to 1,75
* Reload time - Down from 2s to 1,5s
* Critical chance - Up from 25% to 40%
* Ammo reserves - Increased from 72 to 120
* Recoil - Reduced by about 50% or so
Note: The Snipetron family becomes the "spammier" and agile Snipers, with great punchthrough, quick reload, a slightly higher rof and lower recoil and more total ammo. However, magsize and damage are on the lower end of things compared to other Snipers.

Vectis
* Critical chance - Up from 25% to 40%
* Damage - Up from 225 to 250
* Punchthrough - Up from 0m to 1m
Note: The Vectis remains as one of the more powerful snipers with its unique one-shot style.

Vectis Prime
* Reload time - Down from 0,9s to 0,75s
* Rate of fire - Up from 1,5 to 3 (this helps with speeding up your autoreload!)
* Damage - Up from 325 to 350
* Critical chance - Up from 25% to 45%
* Punchthrough - Up from 0m to 1,5m
* Related mod -> Depleted Reload is changed to -30% magsize (still leaves Vectis Prime with 1 bullet at max rank!) and gives +60% reloadspeed, making it more useful for most of the Snipers, not just the Vectis Prime.
Note: The Vectis Prime stays as as the very powerful 2-shot Sniper, thus retaining it as a form of sidegrade/upgrade to the regular Vectis. Overall, its buffs might trumph the regular one for speedkilling though.

Vulkar
* Reload time - Down from 3s to 2s
* Critical chance - Up from 20% to 30%
* Punchthrough - Up from 0m to 0,2m
Note: With this, the Vulkar remains as the "middle-of-the-road" introductionary Sniper, which is decent at pretty much everything, but not excelling at anything either. Punchthrough is the lowest of them all though.

Vulkar Wraith
* Reload time - Down from 3s to 2s
* Critical chance - Up from 20% to 40%
* Punchthrough - Up from 0m to 0,3m
Note: With this, the Vulkar Wraith would remain as the "middle-of-the-road" Sniper, which is good at pretty much everything, but not excelling at anything either. However, the only real weakness would be the rather low punchthrough.

Nah thats what Rivens are for.Now go gamble and hope you get one for one of those weapons and hope it has good stats

[dan.io.wal]

4 hours ago, Gravitus123 said:

Nah thats what Rivens are for.Now go gamble and hope you get one for one of those weapons and hope it has good stats

No. Rng can't help this time. 

[taiiat]

since i see several instances of this, i want to preface an FYI that reducing Crit Damage while slightly increasing Crit Chance on a Weapon, objectively lowers the average Damage per Shot, DPS, sustained DPS, increases TTK - basically a nerf. i'm not against stats going up and down at the same time, but in either direction only for good reasons.
just keep that in mind.

• the above average Crit Multiplier is primarily what makes the 'advanced' Latron Models desired to use in the first place. it's what makes them good.
  • i'm more inclined to slightly increase the Crit Chances of Latron and Latron Prime (i have 12% and 16% for each respectively currently)
  • increasing the Crit Multiplier of Latron Prime, because the theme of the Weapon is Critting here and there but those Crits hit really hard. you can go pretty high with this and not incur any problems, surprisingly. my spreadsheet has 3.5-3.75x.
  • reducing Accuracy of Latron Wraith, increasing Accuracy of Latron Prime. mostly to allow Latron Prime to be competitive vs Wraith as a Precision Weapon, while Latron Wraith being able to fill it's given 'spammy DMR' style.
• no offense but you're slightly adjusting so many things on Grinlok that i'm not sure you know what the Weapon wants to be.
  • for Grinlok i'd touch Crit Chance to 16-18% and RoF to 2.0, with increasing Status to 45%.
    • that RoF would make the Crit Chance appropriate for the heavy DMR style it's portraying.
    • increasing Status to there would make it consistent at applying Status, which is a big part of the style the Weapon portrays.
  • increasing Magazine as you note (and for Marelok, yep), but also making Reload Sequential in the same 2100ms Reload Time (for Marelok too, yep).
    the Sequential Reloading fits the visual theme the Weapons are creating - which is a play off of the various Winchester Lever Action Rifles. fire out precise shots, throw a few Rounds in when you have the time, repeat.
  • while those supposed 'duds' on Grinlok can be annoying, what it effectively does is gives the Player an interesting choice that matches the Lever Action Rifle style of the Weapon. shoot quickly to sacrifice some Accuracy but shoot faster, or small pauses between shots to shoot precisely.
    i would however, increase maximum Accuracy because 'Precise Shots' still have a questionable amount of Spread for hitting Weakpoints.

 

i'm not going to get into details about Sniper Rifles here as i've typed the same stuff too many times, so just some basic stuff. it's nothing personal really but after writing it so many times i don't feel like doing so again at the moment.
note that what you desire for Harkonar Scope would be a direct upgrade over Charged Chamber. stackable yes, but still one is better than the other.

making Lanka auto charge just literally makes Lanka into Semi-Auto like all of the other Sniper Rifles. don't try to serve me some crap about how it's different. no, it isn't. having to Charge before Shots is actually different usage from Semi-Auto.
if you want a Semi-Auto Sniper Rifle, literally every single other one is.

Depleted Reload doesn't need to change, it's useful as is but.... it shouldn't be exclusive to Sniper Rifles.

Edited April 29, 2017 by taiiat

[Neightrix]

Agree overall, especially on the point of reloading speeds and hitpfire. Some of those crit chances are kinda crazy though (Lanka 50% crit? madness). You could make Latron Prime and maybe Vulkar Wraith raw damage weapons rather than crit based, just for some variation.

Edited April 29, 2017 by Neightrix

[Soki01]

Really like these ideas since semi-auto rifles are extremely underrated/underused

[Azamagon]

13 hours ago, Gravitus123 said:

Nah thats what Rivens are for.Now go gamble and hope you get one for one of those weapons and hope it has good stats

I dunno if you are being sarcastic here or not. If you are being serious: Well, that's EXACTLY what semiautos shouldn't need to rely on, considering they have far more weaknesses than all the fullautos.

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

1) since i see several instances of this, i want to preface an FYI that reducing Crit Damage while slightly increasing Crit Chance on a Weapon, objectively lowers the average Damage per Shot, DPS, sustained DPS, increases TTK - basically a nerf. i'm not against stats going up and down at the same time, but in either direction only for good reasons.
just keep that in mind.

• 2a) the above average Crit Multiplier is primarily what makes the 'advanced' Latron Models desired to use in the first place. it's what makes them good.
  • 2b) i'm more inclined to slightly increase the Crit Chances of Latron and Latron Prime (i have 12% and 16% for each respectively currently)
  • 2c) increasing the Crit Multiplier of Latron Prime, because the theme of the Weapon is Critting here and there but those Crits hit really hard. you can go pretty high with this and not incur any problems, surprisingly. my spreadsheet has 3.5-3.75x.
  • 2d) reducing Accuracy of Latron Wraith, increasing Accuracy of Latron Prime. mostly to allow Latron Prime to be competitive vs Wraith as a Precision Weapon, while Latron Wraith being able to fill it's given 'spammy DMR' style.
• 3a) no offense but you're slightly adjusting so many things on Grinlok that i'm not sure you know what the Weapon wants to be.
  • 3b) for Grinlok i'd touch Crit Chance to 16-18% and RoF to 2.0, with increasing Status to 45%.
    • that RoF would make the Crit Chance appropriate for the heavy DMR style it's portraying.
    • increasing Status to there would make it consistent at applying Status, which is a big part of the style the Weapon portrays.
  • 3c) increasing Magazine as you note (and for Marelok, yep), but also making Reload Sequential in the same 2100ms Reload Time (for Marelok too, yep).
    the Sequential Reloading fits the visual theme the Weapons are creating - which is a play off of the various Winchester Lever Action Rifles. fire out precise shots, throw a few Rounds in when you have the time, repeat.
  • 3d) while those supposed 'duds' on Grinlok can be annoying, what it effectively does is gives the Player an interesting choice that matches the Lever Action Rifle style of the Weapon. shoot quickly to sacrifice some Accuracy but shoot faster, or small pauses between shots to shoot precisely.
    i would however, increase maximum Accuracy because 'Precise Shots' still have a questionable amount of Spread for hitting Weakpoints.

 

i'm not going to get into details about Sniper Rifles here as i've typed the same stuff too many times, so just some basic stuff. it's nothing personal really but after writing it so many times i don't feel like doing so again at the moment.
note that what you desire for Harkonar Scope would be a direct upgrade over Charged Chamber. stackable yes, but still one is better than the other.

making Lanka auto charge just literally makes Lanka into Semi-Auto like all of the other Sniper Rifles. don't try to serve me some crap about how it's different. no, it isn't. having to Charge before Shots is actually different usage from Semi-Auto.
if you want a Semi-Auto Sniper Rifle, literally every single other one is.

Depleted Reload doesn't need to change, it's useful as is but.... it shouldn't be exclusive to Sniper Rifles.

1) It's a bit different for semiautos: If you have a crit-reliant weapo, then reliable crits is FAR more important than a bit higher DPS.

2a) As was pointed out by @DrBorris calculations, keeping the higher multipliers while giving them higher critchance should probably be fine. So, I'm considering reverting the critmultiplier nerfs.
2b) Won't make them reliable, but maybe I'm just very "don't wanna rely on RNG"-biased here (I really like the Latrons, especially the Wraith's firing sound, but I really dislike the insane RNG), so keeping them at "average" crit chances maybe is better overall? Dunno *shrugs*
2c) So, it's poop most of the time, and amazing sometimes? Yeah, no thanks.
2d) You know, a thought occured here: Isn't it odd that the spammy Latron Wraith has the more reliable crits? (Can get 100+% critchance with lucky Rivens) While the slower and harderhitting Latron Prime is more about status (which favors faster weapons)?
I wonder if people would be highly opposed to change their roles around: Wraith = Fast and status-rich. Latron = Slow but critreliable.

3a) That's because it is very underpowered...
3b) Considering its one of the slowest semiautos, and that its syndicate mod makes it critoriented, then it better be GOOD at the crits too! Sacrificing TWO critchance mods on a slowfiring semiauto should, imo, mean that you have guaranteed yellow crits. I'm really gonna be stubborn on this point, so I'm not changing the 22,5% critchance. Increasing the status chance further... I dunno, is that really necessary? Maybe for a Wraith/Prisma/Vaykor version.
RoF at 2 sounds ok I guess.
3c) Sequential reload? That sounds... pretty interesting, I must say! But I dunno if DE would be up for that overhaul (considering it has that "knob"-magazine and all). But if it could get that change, I certainly wouldn't mind.
As for the reloadspeed, do you mean a 2,1 second timer over all 8 shots? So, like a 0,2625 reloadtime per sequence? That's rather rapid (Note: I'm not saying 0,5 second per sequence is good for the Strun Wraith either, that's too slow). I would suggest making it like 0,33 reloadtime per sequence (so, 2,64 seconds for the whole 8 shots), as sequential reloading is a quite powerful tool to have at hand. (I'd do the same for the Struns btw, making the Strun Wraith's total reload 3,33 seconds, a far more reasonable time than its current 5 seconds)
3d) The "dud" rounds I was speaking of is not just a low accuracy shot. It was/is a bug where the shot doesn't even appear. Like firing a blank you know?

Harkonar Scope - Hmm, good point. Maybe tone it down to 30%, and give Charged Chamber a couple more ranks, so it has 60% max? (Even so, Charged Chamber is not really a viable mod outside of the Vectis family, so I dunno what to make of them. Any ideas?)

Autocharging Lanka - Is just an idea. If it wouldn't happen, I wouldn't care either :) I know you really like the Lanka, so I'll not argue about that with you anymore ^_^

Depleted Reload - It has a bit of a problem with how DE categorizes stuff though. If you make it, say, for Rifles, then it would be equippable by Bows too (unless the text would specifically say: Not useable on bows), making it a 100% better mod than Fast Hands for Bows (not that I PERSONALLY care about a tiny buff like that for the Bows)... I think I just convinced my self that you are right xD
But still, even so, it's a weak mod, statistically. Making it a Rifle-mod and giving it a buff, would it really be that problematic? I mean, it has a penalty on it...

5 hours ago, Neightrix said:

Agree overall, especially on the point of reloading speeds and hitpfire. Some of those crit chances are kinda crazy though (Lanka 50% crit? madness). You could make Latron Prime and maybe Vulkar Wraith raw damage weapons rather than crit based, just for some variation.

The Lanka buff is MAYBE a tad high, but it's so slow. It needs some serious edge to make up for it.

Considering how well crit scales (and how they reward headshots), making the Latron Prime and Vulkar Wraith raw damage weapons would require some SERIOUS raw damage numerical buffing. I dunno *shrugs*

1 hour ago, Soki01 said:

Really like these ideas since semi-auto rifles are extremely underrated/underused

Thanks! :)

 

EDIT: I changed a few values too:
Latron W and Latron P have their critmultipliers retained at 2,5x
Latron P has gotten a suggested new special "Prime" bonus - It could possibly be innately silent (fitting its sound effects).
Zenith has its critmultiplier retained at 2,5x
Snipetron and Snipetron V have their damages increased by 25

Potential radical changes (not changed), I need people's opinions on this:
* Possibly Latron P instead becomes the reliable critweapon at 40% crit. Status reduced to 20%
* Possibly Latron W instead becomes the statusweapon at 25% status, considering its higher rate of fire. Crit could be around 25 / 30%. Damage possibly slightly increased (to like 65?) to stay more competitive with the Prime version. Recoil still suggested to be heavily reduced.

What would you guys say if those changes happened?

Edited April 29, 2017 by Azamagon

[taiiat]

7 hours ago, Azamagon said:

1) It's a bit different for semiautos: If you have a crit-reliant weapo, then reliable crits is FAR more important than a bit higher DPS.
2b) Won't make them reliable, but maybe I'm just very "don't wanna rely on RNG"-biased here (I really like the Latrons, especially the Wraith's firing sound, but I really dislike the insane RNG), so keeping them at "average" crit chances maybe is better overall? Dunno *shrugs*
2c) So, it's poop most of the time, and amazing sometimes? Yeah, no thanks.

3a) That's because it is very underpowered...
3b) Considering its one of the slowest semiautos, and that its syndicate mod makes it critoriented, then it better be GOOD at the crits too! Sacrificing TWO critchance mods on a slowfiring semiauto should, imo, mean that you have guaranteed yellow crits.
Increasing the status chance further... I dunno, is that really necessary? Maybe for a Wraith/Prisma/Vaykor version.
3c) Sequential reload? That sounds... pretty interesting, I must say! But I dunno if DE would be up for that overhaul (considering it has that "knob"-magazine and all). But if it could get that change, I certainly wouldn't mind.
As for the reloadspeed, do you mean a 2,1 second timer over all 8 shots? So, like a 0,2625 reloadtime per sequence? That's rather rapid (Note: I'm not saying 0,5 second per sequence is good for the Strun Wraith either, that's too slow). I would suggest making it like 0,33 reloadtime per sequence, as sequential reloading is a quite powerful tool to have at hand.
3d) The "dud" rounds I was speaking of is not just a low accuracy shot. It was/is a bug where the shot doesn't even appear. Like firing a blank you know?

Harkonar Scope - Hmm, good point. Maybe tone it down to 30%, and give Charged Chamber a couple more ranks, so it has 60% max? (Even so, Charged Chamber is not really a viable mod outside of the Vectis family, so I dunno what to make of them. Any ideas?)

Autocharging Lanka - Is just an idea. If it wouldn't happen, I wouldn't care either :) I know you really like the Lanka, so I'll not argue about that with you anymore
"The Lanka buff is MAYBE a tad high, but it's so slow. It needs some serious edge to make up for it."

Depleted Reload ... I think I just convinced my self that you are right xD
But still, even so, it's a weak mod, statistically. Making it a Rifle-mod and giving it a buff, would it really be that problematic? I mean, it has a penalty on it...

 

"You know, a thought occured here: Isn't it odd that the spammy Latron Wraith has the more reliable crits?
I wonder if people would be highly opposed to change their roles around: Wraith = Fast and status-rich. Latron = Slow but critreliable."

Potential radical changes (not changed), I need people's opinions on this:
* Possibly Latron P instead becomes the reliable critweapon at 40% crit. Status reduced to 20%
* Possibly Latron W instead becomes the statusweapon at 25% status, considering its higher rate of fire. Crit could be around 25 / 30%. Damage possibly slightly increased (to like 65?) to stay more competitive with the Prime version. Recoil still suggested to be heavily reduced.

• it really depends - for very low RoF ones like Grinlok, i'd concur as it's basically a Sniper Rifle - but ones that have a pretty decent RoF (Latron Series isn't much below basic Assault Rifles with the expected Shred Equipped, basically a Battle Rifle)
• yes they won't be reliable on a per Shot basis - but DMR's aren't about Killing everything with one Shot. rather, they're about Killing things with very few Shots. so if you get your features inside say, 3 Shots on the Enemy, then it's doing it right.
• 'average normally, amazing sometimes'.... is the created theme of Latron Prime with the Stats. it's a unique theme that no other Precision Weapon has.

Grinlok is inconsistent for sure, in all Damage related aspects. too much for it's Rate of Fire, absolutely.
i'm not against 19-20% Crit Chance but this isn't a Weapon that absolutely has to Crit in order to deal any Damage. in contrast some of the difference could be made up by increasing Base Damage, i suppose.

increasing the Status is more necessary than the Crits, as there isn't any Damage to back up Status, like Crits have. inconsistent Status on a low RoF Weapon is more of a problem than inconsistent Crits! (when Status is part of the theme ofc)
increasing Status also helps to reinforce the Lever Action Rifle theme since it's Impact weighted - to Stagger Enemies more as you're shooting them. classic cowboy style stuff.

i'm okay with 1/3 of a second to load each Round, that's fine. (also the way it Reloads now looks totally stupid anyways, it looks like it uses a Kubrow Egg as a Magazine, wtf)

i never found these Shots to be firing blanks, pretty sure they were just missing, but i can shoot at a wall for a minute again to refresh memory.
hm, nope just as i remember - there's a bit of an Accuracy loss for spamming (firing as fast as possible), an amount that can be equated to ~1°. which at long ranges could make it seem like it didn't shoot, but it did, just with a bit of Spread.
Edit: whoops i forgot to paste the Clips in here.
https://gfycat.com/DelayedAnyDuckling
https://gfycat.com/AchingVengefulAmericancurl
https://gfycat.com/ThreadbarePeskyChameleon

just didn't want to step on the toes of Charged Chamber. increasing the power of Charged Chamber is a bit of a minefield though, as for the Sniper Rifles it's ideal for, it's.... quite powerful as it is now. just another symptom of everything sharing the same Mods. pros and cons of that.

the fact that i like Lanka, doesn't change why i wrote what i did - it's just facts, no emotions involved. autocharging is identical to Semi-Auto, just with some extra Particle Effects. and if you want it to be just Semi-Auto, there's a bunch of other choices already.
Lanka may be slow, but it's leagues ahead of the other Sniper Rifles despite that. Rubico can come sort've close with its extra Crit Damage. it's already worth using over the others because of how much more powerful it is (in fact, it's an Overpowered Weapon perse... i was disappointed when Lanka was given that much Damage the last time Sniper Rifles were adjusted)

i like Depleted Reload as it is honestly, it's the Mod i've been dreaming of for most Assault Rifles for years - but ofc i can't even Equip it.
i'd use it as is - increasing the Reload Bonus however, go for it as long as the other Rifle Reload Mods go up with it. and might as well bring Secondary ones with you, but at a smaller factor since they're already not half bad. Shotguns don't need any extra.

 

idunno, and completely changing the theme of a Weapon after it's been around for a while can be asking for trouble.
the Weapons can be made to work, just gotta make sure that the theme they're looking to create is strong enough to be functional. as tbh if we swapped the roles we'd have 'Assault Rifles that you need to click a lot to use'. the same old' as we have everywhere else. meh?

Edited April 29, 2017 by taiiat

[FlyingLlama]

Latron Prime/Wraith have been my main weapons for years, and i can very safely say they do not need buffs, at least not ones that massive. I am not sure if you are really aware how insane 40% crit chance would be on latron wraith.

The recoil and mag sizes are quite manageable, you are not mean to spam fire them, in fact it cripples their headshot-reliant dps.

Grinlok (dud rounds? what? Some bad riven voodoo there) could definitely use a buff, so could the base Latron.

Edited April 30, 2017 by FlyingLlama

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, FlyingLlama said:

Latron Prime/Wraith have been my main weapons for years, and i can very safely say they do not need buffs, at least not ones that massive. I am not sure if you are really aware how insane 40% crit chance would be on latron wraith.

The recoil and mag sizes are quite manageable, you are not mean to spam fire them, in fact it cripples their headshot-reliant dps.

Grinlok (dud rounds? what? Some bad riven voodoo there) could definitely use a buff, so could the base Latron.

But they do. Are the Latrons viable? Yes, but so is a fully forma'd Braton. The DPS of the Latrons is lower than that of the king of autos, Soma Prime, which is extremely accurate and easier to make full use of its on-paper DPS. Remember that with semi-autos you often wont be achieving their on-paper DPS because of their heavier reliance on precision.

[FlyingLlama]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

But they do. Are the Latrons viable? Yes, but so is a fully forma'd Braton. The DPS of the Latrons is lower than that of the king of autos, Soma Prime, which is extremely accurate and easier to make full use of its on-paper DPS. Remember that with semi-autos you often wont be achieving their on-paper DPS because of their heavier reliance on precision.

Latron Wraith does more damage per shot than soma does per second (easily 35-45k). Soma Prime is a mediocre hose for low-level players that cant aim.

The different between a braton with 6-7 forma and a latron wraith/prime with one is immense, and i would hesitate to say that a braton is viable in anything above low level content, regardless of the number of forma.

[(XBOX)Godlike13]

 

41 minutes ago, FlyingLlama said:

Latron Wraith does more damage per shot than soma does per second (easily 35-45k). Soma Prime is a mediocre hose for low-level players that cant aim.

The different between a braton with 6-7 forma and a latron wraith/prime with one is immense, and i would hesitate to say that a braton is viable in anything above low level content, regardless of the number of forma.

Braton prime? 

[nameomnz]

BUMP.

I may suggest additional perk for sniper riffles.

-Always Crit on headshot(Innate)

-Red-crit on Crit-headshot(CriticalChance+Innate)

Becasue the critical chance on sniper riffle is inconsistent, When I'm tris to get stealth-headshot kill It's doens't crit and alert the enemies. So I hope this could work as well.