Stop Balancing Everything

[askaninja]

It is sad seeing all the complaints about this weapon having a 1% edge over that one or some frame having slightly better abilities. At the end of the day all these game elements are different, and have their own pros and cons. It would be a ridiculous game if there were no consequences for wasting forma and lenses on junk weapons and expecting them to be top tier. 

Likewise it would be pathetic and boring if all the abilities, mods, and weapons, were perfectly identical in damage and control. In the real world things are different from each other. Some are better, and some are weaker. These obsessive requests to balance a game that is pretty darn balanced to begin with is getting ludicrous.

The majority of the people tend to like the game how you made it, that is why they play the game. Most of the people asking for changes are the minority. Please listen to the majority. Please stop before you ruin the game just like a painter that doesn't know when to quit working on a painting.

Edited June 20, 2017 by askaninja

[RealisticName]

hastag un nerf limbo 

[AdunSaveMe]

This again? Why do people still think DE balances things solely because people ask for it? If that's the case, where's the buffs to most of the weapons? Where's the Zephyr rework? Where's the corpus tech nerf?

DE has a will of their own. Give them some credit.

Also, if you don't balance a game, you kill it.

[Bobtm]

Balance and identical aren't the same thing, that's a very major misconception that folks sadly have about balance.  A second misconception is that folks incorrectly think whining leads to nerfs, when that's not how it is.  For example, Loki was the original "op" frame for a while and has never been nerfed.  Trinity used to make everyone invincible forever, and folks almost never saw any nerf threads about her.  However Trin got repeatedly hit due to how overpowered she was.

Nerfs and buffs are both required for proper game development.

[Potato]

If Tigris Prime was the only accepted  unbalanced weapon and it did 100mil per hit and reloaded at a pace of 0.2 seconds, although it is the only unbalanced weapon,

 

how many people do you think would use it? Probably every single player.

[NightBlitz]

you dont really understand balance do you? people wouldnt complain about something if it was a mere 1% difference, but they sure as heck will if it something like a 50% or 100% difference. not to mention it by no means means that everything has to be the same, it just means that you shouldn't be able to point at something as say  that its definitely stronger than everything else. and if you can, it needs to be balanced by either reducing its effectiveness or adding a draw back in order to make other things comparable.

[Potato]

If Tigris Prime was the only accepted  unbalanced weapon and it did 100mil per hit and reloaded at a pace of 0.2 seconds, although it is the only unbalanced weapon,

 

how many people do you think would use it? Probably every single player.

[LuckyCharm]

its not that they're trying to make it so you only use meta things.. they're making it so that you have more options to play things rather than be forced into specific things because they're so much better than others

 

[Xzorn]

Well.... The silly thing about "Balance" in this game is that it's based on popularity and not actual power.

I mean... how does one rate powerful in a game with scaling enemies?

Is Ignis OP cuz it clears rooms of lvl 40 enemies or is Octavia OP cuz she can kill a lvl 9,999 Heavy in 3 seconds?

It all seems kinda pointless to try and regulate something when it's based on a flawed system.

[Aeon94]

14 minutes ago, RealisticName said:

hastag un nerf limbo 

OP smells like a demand for un-nerf Limbo , Ash , Tonkor and Simulor.

8 minutes ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This again? Why do people still think DE balances things solely because people ask for it? If that's the case, where's the buffs to most of the weapons? Where's the Zephyr rework? Where's the corpus tech nerf?

DE has a will of their own. Give them some credit.

Also, if you don't balance a game, you kill it.

Agreed.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Aeon94

[(PSN)N7_Dredgen]

6 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

you dont really understand balance do you? people wouldnt complain about something if it was a mere 1% difference, but they sure as heck will if it something like a 50% or 100% difference. not to mention it by no means means that everything has to be the same, it just means that you shouldn't be able to point at something as say  that its definitely stronger than everything else. and if you can, it needs to be balanced by either reducing its effectiveness or adding a draw back in order to make other things comparable.

well - yes they would complain about it over a 1% difference, I've seen it many other times.

But I do agree with you on the rest of it.  

[Volinus7]

This game is already a hamster wheel with minimum balance, redundancies are in abundance and difficulty is all about chasing infinite number scaling with cheese stacking. 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Volinus7

[Airwolfen]

18 minutes ago, RealisticName said:

hastag un nerf limbo 

Hell no. Rather go back to pre-change Limbo rather then that braindead spambot.

[Samuel_sfx]

id rather DE never released that Limbo Cataclysm changes so people not complaining when its actually REVERTED BACK.

Limbo in overall is a decent buff. I can pickup console to rift, no need casting animation to go into rift, can stay in the rift LITERALLY FOREVER....PLUS STASIS.

Man can never stop being greedy aren't they?

[SurrealEdge]

If DE listens to every complaint on here, Ash would be even more dominant than what he used to be, the removal of self damage from launchers, and Simulor would have its original explosion radius.

Give them credit for attempting to make the game more entertaining for everyone and not the ones that push one button and clear the map. That is what balancing should be.

[StinkyPygmy]

41 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Well.... The silly thing about "Balance" in this game is that it's based on popularity and not actual power.

I mean... how does one rate powerful in a game with scaling enemies?

Is Ignis OP cuz it clears rooms of lvl 40 enemies or is Octavia OP cuz she can kill a lvl 9,999 Heavy in 3 seconds?

It all seems kinda pointless to try and regulate something when it's based on a flawed system.

Well in a sense you CAN balance WF to a degree because despite near on infinite scaling there is roughly a enemy lvl range that DE does (and has stated themselves, but its changed over time) balance for. At the moment that seems to be sortie lvl and a wee bit beyond that.

In fact, balance has a need to exist even more so in an infinitely scaling environment because otherwise that scaling would mean nothing and ALL content would either be trivial or impossible. There has to be a line drawn somewhere otherwise scaling loses all meaning.

[(PSN)jesuimaneribas]

agh balances... This game is far far away from being completely balance. Many glitches , many bugs etc.. The some of the nerfs were a bit to hardcore though i must say. Some of the frames are endgame compatible where others will tickle a little level 4000 enemy. 1st Let me begin with the scaling of the game , is it really balanced the scaling of this game of enemies? Example at MOT survival after roughly 3h into the survival the enemies are so ridiculously high out of nowhere. i honestly wish all frames will be able to scale, if not frames abilities then scale the weapons somehow. Yeah i agree there are weapons that make it easier to kill enemies after but mathematically speaking the enemy HP is beyond passed millions and millions on endgame.

2nd trinity "balancing" is nonsense. i understand leaving the players immortal was bit to much but at least increasing the range a bit more would be nice. Running with a structured and coordinated team is fine, but running say sorties with random players who love being spread out across the map , how will you be able to be a support player that the frame trinity portrays to be. 

But i may contradict myself , i do enjoy enemies getting harder and harder to kill, but since DE love capping everything , they should cap the enemy scaling to somewhere , perhaps level 100k? or delay the scaling after 2h into the mission. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

in order to be able to stop balancing everything they would have to start balancing everything first. and hardly anything's more removed from reality. weird thread.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, AdunSaveMe said:

This again? Why do people still think DE balances things solely because people ask for it? If that's the case, where's the buffs to most of the weapons? Where's the Zephyr rework? Where's the corpus tech nerf?

DE has a will of their own. Give them some credit.

Also, if you don't balance a game, you kill it.

Have you seen how many threads were about tonkor/telos boltace and synsim nerfs?

The rework zephyr or nerf corpus techs threads are non-existant compared to those.

Also i think we wouldnt have that much problems if the balance were actually some balancing and not unnoticable changes vs nerf hammer it to the ground.

Look at limbos 4th power in a blancing effor from a useful power it changed back to put it up and get energy regen.

The boltace changed from a great weapon into something what works again itself.

 

De listens to complains in a numbers vs quality manner and at the same time they are stubborn to chnage stuff what they think is "perfect" plus they seem to have a short attention spam becuase if that wouldnt been the case we wouldnt see this many limbo complaint threads.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, StinkyPygmy said:

Well in a sense you CAN balance WF to a degree because despite near on infinite scaling there is roughly a enemy lvl range that DE does (and has stated themselves, but its changed over time) balance for. At the moment that seems to be sortie lvl and a wee bit beyond that.

In fact, balance has a need to exist even more so in an infinitely scaling environment because otherwise that scaling would mean nothing and ALL content would either be trivial or impossible. There has to be a line drawn somewhere otherwise scaling loses all meaning.

 

DE doesn't state level ranges as intended for any specific thing. They've been pretty careful about that.

Sorties are probably just what they think would be a challenging level for the average player at this point in time.

Scaling is more or less a natural combatant to Power Creep. They can draw a line if they want but that line will move further as time goes on. Balancing around that line at any point in time will just time gate that change until a point when it becomes a waste since they need to give players constant upgrades as incentive to play. Balancing on a line is all but impossible unless they resort to cosmetic only upgrades.

DE mentions changes as "Popular" or "Unpopular". If it seems they're balancing around Sorties, it's likely that's just where the majority vote is.

My point wasn't that they shouldn't balance. It's the manner in which they seem to balance. Popularity. It uses players to fish out problems instead of making it right the first time. Which understandably upsets players. This is worsened by a flawed damage system. ie Slash > Impact/Puncture. A Riven will make Khom a monster and Karak will still be lacking yet they have the same Disposition.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Xzorn

[StinkyPygmy]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

 

DE doesn't state level ranges as intended for any specific thing. They've been pretty careful about that.

Sorties are probably just what they think would be a challenging level for the average player at this point in time.

Scaling is more or less a natural combatant to Power Creep. They can draw a line if they want but that line will move further as time goes on. Balancing around that line at any point in time will just time gate that change until a point when it becomes a waste since they need to give players constant upgrades as incentive to play. Balancing on a line is all but impossible unless they resort to cosmetic only upgrades.

DE mentions changes as "Popular" or "Unpopular". If it seems they're balancing around Sorties, it's likely that's just where the majority vote is.

My point wasn't that they shouldn't balance. It's the manner in which they seem to balance. Popularity. It uses players to fish out problems instead of making it right the first time. Which understandably upsets players. This is worsened by a flawed damage system. ie Slash > Impact/Puncture. A Riven will make Khom a monster and Karak will still be lacking yet they have the same Disposition.

Actually they have stated that in the past quite a few times as a response to people complaining about specific nerfs etc. Granted, the bar for what players can handle has been raised due to power creep, but as far as what DE seems to actually balance most content around and what the average player is expected to face, not much in that department has changed.

The fact is that line doesn't actually have to move too much and a degree of stability can be reached if so much of the game's "difficulty" wasn't reliant on just increasing the numbers and placed a bit more emphasis on good enemy design and more intricate missions and victory conditions. Balancing on a line is easily achievable. Its been done plenty of times in the past with games that have scaling systems similar to WF. The kicker being, scaling is really the only challenge we have in WF. Thus that compounds the issue even more.

I agree with your last point for the most part, although DE doesn't balance solely around the community, we do seem to have a large part to play in it. Been shouting for years that DE will have a much easier time if they err on the side of caution and when in doubt, release something underpowered and buff it soon after if necessary, rather than releasing a toy noticeably OP and then dealing with the backlash after.

 I personally believe that DE struggles to make changes, especially large ones, because of how childish the community can be and how attached to their toys they are. The WF community is VERY resistant to change, even changes that are mostly positive. Hek, DE has been talking (or was) about damage 3.0 for years now, then that suddenly got put on the back burner. I suspect that's partially because of the potential backlash.

I don't believe DE should stop balancing things, but I definitely think that they need to buck up and go through with making drastic changes again. Give us fair warning, accept feedback etc, but don't be hypersensitive to the community voice, because lets face it, on most issues either none of us know what we actually want or we can't agree. It's not unusual for the community to have horrible ideas and we don't always know whats best for the game.

[Fallen_Echo]

5 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

 I personally believe that DE struggles to make changes, especially large ones, because of how childish the community can be and how attached to their toys they are. The WF community is VERY resistant to change, even changes that are mostly positive. Hek, DE has been talking (or was) about damage 3.0 for years now, then that suddenly got put on the back burner. I suspect that's partially because of the potential backlash.

Thats because the community fears what monster could born if they start to "balance" damage. They talked about removing mandatory mods but knowing how they handle buffs vs nerfs it almost instantly alerted players about an incoming disaster.

For example look at the weapon balance pass:

The glaxion got damage increase and a range decrease, its accuracy went up and the promised ammo economy increase was not even inplemented.

At the same time the Telos boltace got a new mechanic what play against it and the simulor series got 90% damage decrease, a non existant orm merge count change and less max ammo.

Or in general just look at previous nerfs, they all look like the most important thing to do was to make the nerfed item worthless and the buffs were unnoticably low on many stuff.