[U21 Megathread] New Weapons: Scourge and Knell

[Cortanis]

Scourge- Not bad but still a bit meh. What is with this intent to go with impact on weapons when they know full well that impact is the least viable damage type out of the three? This is probably the biggest issue that I'm finding with the weapon besides the issue of punch through on all the spear gun weapons. On that note... why is this still an issue with the spear guns that we still don't get an auto return when they're in locations that are unretrievable? Add in punch through on many of them because it actually makes 2/3 of them better on the actual charge shot, but adds in a particularly nasty issue that they'll punch right through game geometry or even exit the level entirely.

Knell- This is a weapon that I'm torn on. Mechanics wise, it's very nice but super counter productive in what's supposed to be a sniper pistol. One second you're using the sidearm version of the Vectis and the next you're using a spray and pray wanna be version of the Lex. The effect is greatly appreciated, but it stops being just an accuracy pistol at that point and makes the limited mag capacity and reload more viable for the rest of the game. I have similar issues pointed out for sniper rifles in this thread and they frankly need to be taken into account given the contents of this update.

Stat wise on the Knell... I'm having a hard time justifying this thing's existence other than as MR fodder. I've said this before in the larger update thread and I'll say it again here. We've had the Lex/AkLex/Lex Prime/AkLex Prime before this and since the get go in the Lex's case. Where the Lex set sits and remains viable is in the fact that it's puncture based vs the Knell which seems to be the Lex with it's damage divided up between puncture and impact. See statements and issues again with impact damage again. In that issue alone, it's been thoroughly short changed in viability to already existing weapons that we've had for some time. The Lex set is the original off hand sniper set to the game and still remains such. No gimmicks attached and the damage set is far more viable. If the damage set was going to be split on the Knell, then it should have been between puncture and slash rather than puncture and impact. It's fun for a while, but then it just gets tossed in the bin with the other stuff before we default back to weapons that do the job better.

[hukurokuju5]

SCOURGE

- ALT FIRE could use some CC like a mini mag pull  for the oomph factor.  it would also prevent enemies from just walking out of range immediately

- the  projectiles are a bit floaty and slow

- 

[Chipputer]

7 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

- ALT FIRE could use some CC like a mini mag pull  for the oomph factor.

Ferrox already does this. Scourge seems to have a bit larger of an effect radius to make up for not pulling enemies in.

5 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

i'd like to have it do a damage pulse along with headshot bubbles. That I feel wouldn't be overpowered so much as 'enemies walked into the pulse area and now they have statuses applied.'

This is a good idea.

I mention the Ferrox again-- that pulls enemies into itself and holds them there and also causes a damage tick every second, or so. These damage ticks pull from your mods and will cause status effects based on what you have on your Ferrox. If that one can do it why can't the Scourge?

[hukurokuju5]

2 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Ferrox already does this. Scourge seems to have a bit larger of an effect radius to make up for not pulling enemies in.

it has a bullet attractor theme... so mini pull kind of makes sense... aand it needs some oomph on the throw....

[Chipputer]

13 minutes ago, hukurokuju5 said:

it has a bullet attractor theme... so mini pull kind of makes sense... aand it needs some oomph on the throw....

It has a bullet attractor to help with head shots. Bullet attracting doesn't automatically mean it needs to follow in line with Mag's powers when we already have another spear gun that does that.

[SteelSoldier]

I think Scourge might need to do 5-10 more damage than what it currently does at the moment on it's primary attack, it's very cool looking weapon but lackluster unless you have a really good riven mod for it

[I3jionaa]

On ‎2017‎.‎07‎.‎01 at 3:04 AM, Dusk_Revenant said:

As far as a possible fix, I strongly believe that raising the duration of the Knell's proc to 10-12 seconds would eradicate this issue almost entirely, without giving players an infinite ammo handheld minigun.

Iniatial first headshot buff could be 4 seconds and stack 3 times upto a maximum of 12 seconds, but to combat macro machineguns players every missed shot would reduce buff duration by -1 second. (PVE solution)

All it takes is small tweaks - looking at u monster Sicarus Prime.

U can do it, we believe in you, just have courage to change and tweak. Its just stats Vs happy people.

What knell is missing is good feeling to use it, regular player who is not camping in a hallway with a macro command wont find current 3 seconds attractive.

[Ikusias]

Scourge: interesting status weapon

- primary firing mode lacks a bit of punch, a bit more damage would be welcome; bullets are a bit too slow for this game speeds;

- secondary fire doesn't apply it's buff correctly: any shot on marked enemies should be a headshot, in fact NOT, also enemies can leave the area of effect too easily to make it count; secondary effect should mark all enemies in range and keep them debuffed for a bit after they leave its area;

 

Bug: kuva fortress sensors "projections" block scourge shots as if they were solid obstacles.

 

Knell: building it and going to toss it in the trash after leveling

Why do you insist in trash gimnics? this, the dual toxocists that can't refresh the buff, the cycron that's absolutely mediocre?

[Flustershy]

Is it just me or does scourge look a bit like it could be sentient tech ?

Just the way the gun works, looks, and is base colored after just screams sentient's all over the place..

[Othergrunty]

Scourge:

A little bit rough on the edges, but i think it's a fine gun. Though i'm not sure where to place in in the rough tier. Upper mid tier or lower high tier.

Damage is good and the high status chance is great. With the current corrosive only default damage, one can potentialy give it 3 elemental damage type of which two use toxin as basis. So that opens a few interesting combos.

It also goes through shield lancer shields, which is a nice bonus.
Overall a solid addition.

 

Knell:

I find it a rather poor weapon. Damage wise it's not very great, meaning other secondaries can fill it's damage role just fine (including the default Lex). In normal mode the one shot per reload thing makes it cumbersome to use without it's gimick. Said gimick meanwhile is highly unreliable and not overly productive in a game like Warframe. The effect time is far too short and just creates a hectic moment in which you try to line up headshots. Which by the way is quite difficult with the way most enemies are shaped. Not to forget most players likely taking your headshot options away with more reliable weapons.

It feels like a gimick weapon for the sake of a gimick, rather than a valuable addition to Warframe's arsenal.

[Infinitewin]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/290958107297841163/332593086154801162/unknown.pngThe Knell does a ton of damage and you can really see the strengths of it when the buff is up. But some math can show that the buff doesn't scale to 2.5x. It applies 1.5x and reapplies it per headshot instead of what is intended. So you do 3x(6x) crit damage with the knell without Primed/Target Cracker) instead of 4x(8x).

What gives?

Edited July 10, 2017 by Infinitewin

[TaylorsContraction]

Knell feedback

Bottom line,  knell buff timer should be doubled to 6 seconds.  3 is too unwieldy. Increase mag to 3 rounds and total reserve to 15-30.

 

I finally got around to trying this weapon.  At first,  it's terrible, and it didn't get too much better.

Firstly,  I used this weapon on its own,  without scourage.  In general my headahot rate is about 10%. I pay close attention to my accuracy stats,  and am generally happy with that value.

I brought this weapon with me to defense,  capture,  exterminate and excavation missions. It was the same deal in every one.

Almost all cc changes the location of head positions making it difficult to use with 4 players using cc and spamming abilities.  Rhino stomp, head is out of reach.  Knocked down,  chaos,  almost all cc makes enemy heads difficult to access unless you walk up to the enemy.

Shots have to be lined up,  in that time someone will kill your target. This is the #1 reason I suggest a bigger magazine,  to compensate for this.  Also why should you be punished so hard for missing the head,  instant reload? There's no good justification for such harsh punishment.  I think 3 chances to land a headshot is okay given the fast pace of the game and difficulty of landing headshots in general.

The 3 second duration is also too short.  Yes we usually have target rich environments,  but they aren't always in one place.  In every mission I has to pan the camera around to find new targets,  that can eat up one to two seconds,  them line up a shot,  and you want to keep getting headshots even in unlimited ammo mode.  But as I m ove my aiming reticle frantically searching for another head,  my allies are mowing down targets left and right.  3 second is simply too short a buff.  The only time I could start stacking headshots is when a bunch of enemies are in front of me and my teammates aren't focusing on them.

All in all,  using this weapon in its current iteration was more frustrating than fun.  And I hate cheese like auto headshots that scourage provides  so no thanks to your aimbot.  I'll chalk it up to not being skilled enough for such a gun and sold it after getting the mastery.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

scourge is fun 

but i find its thrown/impaled time to be a bit to short 

also the bullet attraction effect sometimes dosnt kick in for half the time its out even with grineer units right next to it 

[Ikusias]

Scourge interaction with Knell is absolutely malfunctioning, with enemies chained by Harrow's #1 and the Scourge placed in their midst the Knell performed as mediocrely as always as enemies keep twitching even under cc and the "automatic headshot effect" doesn't work as advertised at all since you still need to precisely line up Knell shots.

On the Knell: it's capability to register headshots is spotty as hell, leading to further frustration.

About gunlances: why DE didn't go all the way and made them in dual use primary and melee weapon? replacing quick melee with specific animations for them (much like the Jaffa's weapon in Stargate btw)? it feels like a wasted chance.

So far all gimnick guns have been underwhelming or utterly mediocre due to the pile of disadvantages ad annoyances heaped on their mechanics - paired infested guns, cycron and knell all suffer from DE's psychotic aversion on endless ammo weapons... even the hema isguilty of this, requiring both ammo and health for a reload (WTF?!) on top on its outrageous research costs and the questionable attitude that the developers developed on the entire fiasco

[(XBOX)DomTheKilleur]

I find the "bullet attractor" from throwing Scourge somewhat useless, am I the only one? I'll aim straight at an enemies head with Knell after I've thrown the spear and it won't even proc Knell's effect half of the time. I thought I could aim like a few feet away(alright maybe a few inches lol)from the enemies head and the bullets would fly straight to their heads kinda like how the Buzzlok work with the tag. Beside that it looks really nice! How about a Sentient spear gun next? 

And as for Knell I think the duration of it's special effect should last longer. It would be nice if it had a slightly larger mag capacity and ammo pool, outside of that it's not very impressive if you don't go for headshots, but I guess that's to be expected with how the weapon functions.

Overall:

Scourge - 8/10

Knell - 5/10

Edited July 29, 2017 by (XB1)DomTheKilleur

[Desdemona-XI]

On 7/4/2017 at 1:16 PM, Toran said:

Knell Feedback:
Rather useless in its current form. Dusk_Revenant listed enough reasons. My 100+% Crit Aklex Prime is more reliable.
Suggestions to make Knell more utilarian without spoiling its unique feeling:

• Initialize the Death Knell buff on any hit, headshot or not. Consecutive buff refreshs must be headshots. This way the weapon is useful in close range too and 3 secs are fair enough to deal another headshot
• When the Death Knell timer ends keep the last bullet in the chamber. Only when you miss the next shot, you should have to reload. This would help alot with frustrating moments where teammates or pets block the line of fire.
• Maybe add 10 more bullets to ammo total

Even with these additions the Knell wouldn't be too overpowered as you still had to deliver headshots to be efficient while straining from the semi-auto fire. It would be a good compromise between the overpowered endless fire of the prepatch Knell and its current, more frustrating version.

Scourge Feedback:
Having a blast with that weapon and Harrow. I can't tell if it's any good on 40+ but for keep enemies down, maybe with a Riven Mod. It's great fun though with anything below, especially when using Speedtrigger and Terminal Velocity. At high firerate and Forma-powered it synergizes great with Harrow's Thurible.

I don't use the second fire function at all, it's far too cumbersome. I like LSG501's idea:
 

 

I agree here overall though the death knell buff triggering on ANY hit is a bit much. maybe give it a little innate punchthrough to deal with Pauldrons and other headshot blocking armor.

-the mere 10 shots max ammo is terribly low. double it and you have a serviceable weapon.

-the pistol's scope is a bit awkward. If possible move the scope to an alt fire option and increase the zoom. or allow for some zoom magnification with the normal scope as is with the alt fire like for a regular sniper rifle, even if the zoom mode does not possess stat effects. 

-damage is good. it falls off a little at higher levels. requiring a barrage of headshots to bring down higher level enemies but I believe this is as intended.

In short, has decent potential as a pocket sniper but does need at least 20 max ammo. Dual Toxocyst packs more ammo for the same basic mechanic. the scope is a little unwieldy and needs an additional magnification level.

Scourge I'm fine with. I rarely bother using them together as the synergy between performs spottily and i find knell works best when silenced but throwing scourge alerts all enemies in the area. which would be okay if the bubbles did their job more reliably. have tested it with a few other weapons.

-vasto prime has no benefit from it as i believe it is a hitscan weapon and thus has no projectile to take in the bubble.

-Rakta ballistica does okay with it but frankly that hits hard enough and the aim on it is good enough that headshots are not hard to get.

-Mara Detron is a complete waste with it. despite firing the full shot into the bubble at point blank range. it didnt register a headshot. perhaps because despite what should be a brutal shotgun blast to the face, it didnt kill the heavy gunner in question untill the bubble had already faded.

Scourge's primary fire is good. deals good damage and quite handy for popping Saryn spores. the alt fire throw does credible damage and is if nothing else amusing to pin an enemy to a wall with. but its bubbles are less then stellar. I will continue to use the weapon but mostly ignoring the bubbles.

 

[kapn655321]

[knell] augment idea.
Shooting Nova's Antimatter Drop Counts as a Headshot.
 

[TameruVeil]

For Knell, seeing as it seems to have a frustrating headshot mechanic
Possibly have it start a 5 second buff off of a headshot OR a weak point (behind moas, banshee/helios weak point) and a 2 second buff off any critical hit. 
That way you don't have to focus on the heads when there's much better targets/can't find the head (robotic corpus/infested respectively)
Also, for targets where they're constantly moving/facing away/generally being a pain in the &#!, you can still start the buff off a critical hit, but that requires you to very quickly scope up a headshot or continuously land enough shots to get criticals with dependancy, and that's limited to a single 'fight'

[Archistopheles]

Knell could be fun if it just had a 10 ammo clip, and 0 reserves.

 

It still does the same thing, but it's easier to use.