DE just threw away everything they learned in the last 3 years with Harrow

[Grimmzi]

so if you just do not like the frame for being tedious and having him to do things himself to support his mates why not just go with trinity and her press 2 and 4 to win,why bug harrow when he actually need work to be done to give constant healing,energy and shields which you sacrificed for those buffs.its not that hard to get shields back just be efficient with his condemn and use it properly abit like nidus's first skill.

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by EvanCharter

[SurrealEdge]

18 minutes ago, EvanCharter said:

-snip-

 

Only major gripe I've had is the cast times without Natural Talent, and that second of complete vulnerability after casting Penance and getting one shot right as I start moving.

[Valiant]

1 hour ago, O.O_ said:

You should feel bad for those who try to get his systems in the worst mission in WF's existence...

Pay to not get insanely bored and frustrated.

I didn't know they were dropping on interception.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Valiant

[Kyronz]

ask teammates to stop killing so you can kill instead too support them, not the most reasonable of design decisions.   Not all is lost, as a support frame he will be most efficient while soloing.... :P  

[WhiteCr0w]

6 hours ago, Evanescent said:

lols in silence

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I'll probably get told "lol console pleb gtfo" But i'm still going to comment anyway.

I have to highly disagree.  I akin him to oberon.  In that.  His play requires effort and other things that a lot of players don't typically enjoy. Neither harrow or oberon are for your standard players.  They are after a specific kind of player.  In this case people who enjoy micromanaging/support.  Let's tackle your points though:

1) Headshots not registering half the time?  I feel that's grossly overstated.  It's usually more of a case of weird hitboxes.  Mostly with the infested.  Perhaps you confuse your crits with headshots?  IN any case you're completely skipping out on the numerous times that players get headshots they normally wouldn't have.  Rgeardless he has the tools to keep himself going even if he's not landing every single headshot.

2) Swinging that long is basically your own fault.  The ability isn't meant to give you loads of energy back instantly.  He's not easy button trinity.  You swing it for 5/10 seconds (goes even faster now due to the hotfix) and then you make your headshots count.  Bam.  done.  The only time I could ever see swinging extended periods of time for is if you're playing something like...defense.  where you can swing it up in between waves to have it ready when the mobs come in.

3) I don't see why losing all your shields is an issue to begin with.  You have a hard CC that literally gives you headshots.  and an invulnerability ability that you can actually cast penance with so you don't get killed while using penance.  RoF+ reload is NOT something to scoff at.  If you've ever played any kind of MMO where DPS is highly important you'd know having less down time between damage phases and outputting more damage faster is super important.  It's another one of those things that you don't blatently notice.  But that doesn't mean it's not being super helpful.  Like.  You don't notice the buff rhino's roar gives you.  But when you're affinity farming on a small map like the defense on sedna it makes a BIG difference.  We're not even talking about how it consistently heals too.  Even if shield gating existed in WF right now losing your shields doesn't mean much.  even on squishy frames.  Shields just are not valuable.

4) "why do you have to compete for kills for energy?" This sounds like 1 of 2 things.  Potentially both.  either a) you run pubs most of the time.  OR b) you prefer frames that can fit into any situation.  If a) that's you're problem.  Limbo is also a mess for random pubs unless you're a smart player.  Not every frame blends into every situation/group comp.  That's fine.  and well.  If you're b...harrow just isn't for you.  and once again.  that's not a bad thing.  He doesn't have to work in every comp to be considered a good frame.  If you want a support like that go play trinity.

5) Probably because having minutes of constant free energy is pretty stupidly strong.  they even buffed it up to 120 seconds now.  that's 2 minutes of constant heals and an increase in DPS for the team.  that's pretty strong.  If you wanted free EZ energy.  trinity.  Also the animations are probably his balancing point.  considering everything he offers.

You want my opinion? You're being a jerk.  You're telling DE they are bad at designing this frame because it doesn't fit YOUR wants.  YOUR standards.  Currently we have 3 types of support frames.  We have Trinity.  The beginners support.  One that offers no damage or CC.  but fits into any group.  and keeps people alive and topped with energy.  Then we have oberon.  Who offers constant healing of him and his allies (and their summoned friends) along with an armor buff.  and some CC.  Technically free damage too due to constant rad procs. he offers more offense than trinity at the cost of less direct support.  And now we have harrow.  He's more offensive compared to the other 2 supports.  With traditional CC.  his heals and his energy output are harder to keep up.  But in return he also increases the teams overall damage.  something the other 2 supports do not do.

I'm not saying you have to enjoy harrow.  Not every frame is for everyone.  But he's not badly designed AT ALL.  his kit works well with itself.  It just requires someone who's got good aim and good micro manage skills.  He's a very mechanic/skill intensive frame.  Some may not enjoy that.  Others will.  

[xXDeadsinxX]

Harrow is an amazing frame, only if shield gating came with him.

[Gelkor]

7 hours ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

His biggest weakness is the fact that shields are useless against procs like toxin and slash. DE should have released shield gating before this frame.

I don't think shield gating would change that toxin and slash bypass shields entirely.

[Volinus7]

Oh it's not a balance thread but a "not op enough" thread instead.

This game never has timeframe standard or opportunity standard in the combat model for balancing to begin with, long cast time? vulnerable moment? Lololol they did it on a whim without any balancing doctrines. 

You learn something now eh?

Edited July 6, 2017 by Volinus7

[HalfDarkShadow]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

You want my opinion? You're being a jerk.  You're telling DE they are bad at designing this frame because it doesn't fit YOUR wants.  YOUR standards.  Currently we have 3 types of support frames.  We have Trinity.  The beginners support.  One that offers no damage or CC.  but fits into any group.  and keeps people alive and topped with energy.  Then we have oberon.  Who offers constant healing of him and his allies (and their summoned friends) along with an armor buff.  and some CC.  Technically free damage too due to constant rad procs. he offers more offense than trinity at the cost of less direct support.  And now we have harrow.  He's more offensive compared to the other 2 supports.  With traditional CC.  his heals and his energy output are harder to keep up.  But in return he also increases the teams overall damage.  something the other 2 supports do not do.

I'm not saying you have to enjoy harrow.  Not every frame is for everyone.  But he's not badly designed AT ALL.  his kit works well with itself.  It just requires someone who's got good aim and good micro manage skills.  He's a very mechanic/skill intensive frame.  Some may not enjoy that.  Others will.  

Just wanted to highlight this, for exposure and the sake of coming to the same consensus.

At the end of the day OP,  you're free to express your distaste for any particular Warframe. But to come on here and not give any real substantial feedback (i.e. why you feel X ability or X Warframe is "terrible"), adding your overal immflamatory post and what could be argued borderline dev-bashing is just not cool.

I think at this point many users here have gave you the proper information to educate yourself a bit more on the matter, because just saying "Harrow/Ability X is terrible" literally tells us nothing. So for future posts, at least try to conduct yourself a bit better and to not get over-reactionary, because I'm sure you have better, actual constructive criticism we would love to listen to and have a worthwhile discussion on, but right now that's not the case since again, you kind of left us nothing to work off of here.

Edited July 6, 2017 by HalfDarkShadow

[Xgomme]

When you like to idle in a game, don't play active things. Or even better, play another game (I suggest Adventure Capitalist  )

 

But yeah, when you sit all day on your chair it's totally fair to say X or Y thing is a bad design (without proper arguments except lazyness). If we let people like you design games, we could rename Earth to Blizzard...

 

Also, we have more than 3 support frames

Edited July 6, 2017 by Xgomme

[kaliazane]

10 minutes ago, HalfDarkShadow said:

(i.e. why you feel X ability or X Warframe is "terrible")

Is terrible thurible terribly thurible ?

[CelticMoss]

I think harrow needs a heavy shield buff 

While harrow does a few things differently inaros does the same stuff mostly but he has the effective hp of 11k and can go invulnerable forever with his 2

Edited July 6, 2017 by CelticMoss

[TheDudeCZ]

I'll just leave this here:

 

[Eric1738]

Can't agree with you at all. Harrow is pretty decent after the buffs. He still has some problems, such as shield being weak in general, but shield gating is on the way, so this might become his strength later on. Overall he is pretty good in a team. Compared to Trinity, he is much more offensive as he has offensive buffs from 2 and 4. His 1 is also a very handy CC for very little energy cost. It's true that Harrow's headshot mechanics is a bit underwhelming, but to be fair once you land those headshots, it's totally worth it.

There is still some bugs not fixed and pulling him down, but honestly  I can't see how he is one of the weakest.

[IggySnow]

I actually really like harrow. It might be because im a sniper user and iv always tried going for headshots anyways just because, but Harrow really fits my play style.

only thing that annoys me about him is that his crit chance buff from his 4th doesn't last very long, and it takes a while to get the buff back up. but other than that I think hes in a real good spot.

And once shield gating is live he will be an absolute tank.

[Wolfdoggie]

Well, I haven't been in any hurry to get him because of how unappealing he is. I know there's gotta be something for everyone out there but for me personally he's literally the opposite of how I like to play in every way. None of his skills do damage and only one actually looks cool (chains), 100% Gun reliant when I have more fun with Melee and Powers mostly, Buff Bot gameplay which is the most dull to me (I get bored playing Trinity), mechanics that involve shields (I actually hate shields and prefer high HP/Armor/QT/Rage...) Doesn't appeal to me visually like the main frames I play do although half of those are because the Deluxe skins are so good. 

I'm just playing the game normally and will build him if I happen to randomly get his parts. I enjoyed his story quest even though it had no Operator/Warframe cutscenes/dialogue which I couldn't help but expect and found the story a little strange (both bad and good kind of strange) but enjoyed it overall. I was most excited for Melee Rivens outa this update~ now if only Harrow brought me more fun ways to get Kuva.

Edited July 6, 2017 by Wolfdoggie

[SilvaDreams]

15 minutes ago, Wolfdoggie said:

Well, I haven't been in any hurry to get him because of how unappealing he is. I know there's gotta be something for everyone out there but for me personally he's literally the opposite of how I like to play in every way. None of his skills do damage and only one actually looks cool (chains), 100% Gun reliant when I more fun with Melee and Powers mostly, Buff Bot gameplay which is the most dull to me (I get bored playing Trinity), mechanics that involve shields (I actually hate shields and prefer high HP/Armor/QT/Rage...) Doesn't appeal to me visually as the main frames I play do although half of those are because the Deluxe skins are so good. 

I'm just playing the game normally and will build him if I happen to randomly get his parts. I enjoyed his story quest even though it had no Operator/Warframe cutscenes/dialogue which I couldn't help but expect and found the story a little strange (both bad and good kind of strange) but enjoyed it overall. I was most excited for Melee Rivens outa this update~ now if only Harrow brought me more fun ways to get Kuva.

Well he plays nothing like Trinity.

You actually want to be leading the pack with Harrow. You hit your #4 to become invincible soaking up damage buffing team mates with crit boost. You hit #2 which nukes your shields but you are still invincible so now allies are getting health. Then you hit #1 till your Overshields are replenished. 

That takes all of a few seconds.

Edited July 6, 2017 by SilvaDreams

[ALEX_IV]

The tone of your post is, for lack of a better word, rather unfortunate and arrogant. Looks like you know all that there is to be known about game design and can tell when developers and designers with years of experience are wrong, without effort. Next time instead of dev bashing, because they made something you didn't like, provide constructive criticism.

There are a lot of players that already showed you how it can be a really good frame. Even a video.

Do you want a good analysis? Read this snippet from a fellow player:

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

You want my opinion? You're being a jerk.  You're telling DE they are bad at designing this frame because it doesn't fit YOUR wants.  YOUR standards.  Currently we have 3 types of support frames.  We have Trinity.  The beginners support.  One that offers no damage or CC.  but fits into any group.  and keeps people alive and topped with energy.  Then we have oberon.  Who offers constant healing of him and his allies (and their summoned friends) along with an armor buff.  and some CC.  Technically free damage too due to constant rad procs. he offers more offense than trinity at the cost of less direct support.  And now we have harrow.  He's more offensive compared to the other 2 supports.  With traditional CC.  his heals and his energy output are harder to keep up.  But in return he also increases the teams overall damage.  something the other 2 supports do not do.

I'm not saying you have to enjoy harrow.  Not every frame is for everyone.  But he's not badly designed AT ALL.  his kit works well with itself.  It just requires someone who's got good aim and good micro manage skills.  He's a very mechanic/skill intensive frame.  Some may not enjoy that.  Others will.  

That is a good analysis. The guys at DE didn't just throw some ideas and made a frame without any thinking at all. He is showing that there was actually a role being assigned when the frame was designed and that trade offs were made so it could fit that role because you can't have everything.

[PsiWarp]

He's not terrible, he's a durable thurible.

If you can't grasp the concepts of killing enemies for energy, doing damage to heal, jumping into a crowd to soak as much damage as possible, and finding time to cast/channel 2 & 3 during combat downtimes and parkouring from one room to the next... you know, things you should already doing while playing this game, then yeah, Harrow isn't for you. Take your pick from 32 other frames, we have enough borderline overpowered ones from recent release.

[Atekron]

What are you talkin about? Harrow is very good self-sufficient frame  - CC, shield/health/energy regen, invulnerability all covered. And he is realy fun to play.  Ivara and Nidus have their own problems: Ivara: useles second ability, and very sitational 1 and 4, Nidus: very punishing if you use weapon insted of his first, and need to snowball to become good.

[kaliazane]

Keeping his durations up is a chore, it's little less annoying after last hotfix but is still a problem. Personally I would remove cap from his 2 or even better make it a toggle.

Thing is that he isnt tanky, currently shields don't provide any protection against slightly higher level enemies. Even if he could have 20k overshields all of it would just disappear since they don't scale with armor. 15 sec of immortality is nice and all, but then you have mandatory period without it.

Overal he isn't terrible, but is not amazing either. It's nice to see they are trying crazy things like his crit buff tho ^^

1 hour ago, TheDudeCZ said:

I'll just leave this here:

 

Damn dude that's some weak sicarus riven right there. https://streamable.com/sr0ux

Also Nukor with 15.3 crit multi. https://streamable.com/qxkej

[TheyreFood]

14 hours ago, Airwolfen said:

All I can say is that this is a frame for people who like to support AND micromanage. Those who don't enjoy that simply will not like the frame.

Here, take all of my this.

[Airwolfen]

7 hours ago, Gelkor said:

I don't think shield gating would change that toxin and slash bypass shields entirely.

It wont. Shield bypasses will still bypass shields.

+ Harrow is a frame where its easy to go like "high shields? then I only need redirection". Meanwhile I use QT next to redirection, because energy is easy to get and shields are a partial resource.

Though next to QT a simple vitality or (P) Vigor is also an option 

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

13 minutes ago, Airwolfen said:

It wont. Shield bypasses will still bypass shields.

+ Harrow is a frame where its easy to go like "high shields? then I only need redirection". Meanwhile I use QT next to redirection, because energy is easy to get and shields are a partial resource.

Though next to QT a simple vitality or (P) Vigor is also an option 

Still, even with Shield Gating, there's far too much stuff that can easily bypass Shields to really make them worth building into.