Enough RNG BS

[Tsukinoki]

8 hours ago, Loswaith said:

The numbers also only ever look at a 4 person squad.  So while they don't lie they do only look at a single aspect of group composition.  

Though people do seem to enjoy the DE version of lock-boxes.

Actually you're a bit wrong here.

In the old key system: 5% at the highest to much more average 2% from rotation C for a rare reward.  Which took quite a lot of time.
Radiant Relics have a 10% chance at the rare item.
SO even without a full squad the RNG is more in you favor if you use radiant relics than the old key system.
If you're solo running intact relics then you're back pretty much to the old RNG levels....except that you can run the missions tons faster than you could back then.  Now instead of being forced into 20 minute survival you can run a 3 minute exterminate or capture and have a shot at the reward you want.
Hek even a squad of just intact relics ends up with a better chance at the rare items than the old system did...

7 minutes ago, O.O_ said:

Old system -> new items got added to existing keys -> no farming for new keys, you could directly start farming the parts (you had more then enough keys by just playing the game).

New system -> new items come with new relics -> farming for new relics before you farm the parts = double the RNG/grind... not reduced at all.

That's the reason why the second part of his post is BS and you both should think before you post.

 

P.S. There was another advantage of keys, you only needed a single key in an endless mission and had every 5 minutes a chance to get a prime part out of the same key... relics suck.

So are you honestly saying that no one ever had to farm keys ever and everyone had an infinite supply of keys?
Because otherwise: you still had to farm for keys in the old system!

Also its ridiculously easy to stock up on sydnicate medallions and then when the new relics come you can just trade in medallions for relic packs essentially and get plenty of the new relics right away.

But I'm tired of people like you acting as if no one ever had to farm any keys like they just magically appeared in peoples inventories.
I remember lots of complaints back in the day of having to farm the right T3/T4 keys for the new pieces and even if you get the right one only have a 2% chance at the reward at the end of the mission before having to go back out and farm for more T3/T4 keys.

Edited July 12, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[O.O_]

32 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

So are you honestly saying that no one ever had to farm keys ever and everyone had an infinite supply of keys?
Because otherwise: you still had to farm for keys in the old system!

Nope, I'm not saying that you never had to farm for keys, they don't just materialize out of thin air, you know? I'm just saying you most likely already had the required keys by just actively playing the game.

Relics are more like - You want a newly released prime whatever? Go farm the required relic. You failed? Go relic farming again.... and so on.

And the medallions maybe an alternate for someone who does all the syndicate missions... every single day, but at least for me that's a "bit" too boring. And even if you do that every day, the chance to get the relic that you need is very small, because all relics can be in these packs(one rare, yes, but neo count as rare also).

Edited July 12, 2017 by O.O_

[Gamma745]

2 minutes ago, O.O_ said:

Nope, I'm not saying that you never had to farm for relics, they don't just materialize out of thin air, you know? I'm just saying you most likely already had the required keys by just actively playing the game.

Relics are more like - You want a newly released prime whatever? Go farm the required relic. You failed? Go relic farming again.... and so on.

You can't see it at another angle? How about if we compare with Vaulted Primes?

With the old void, the time limit to farm the Primes are when they are in rotation. When the vault announcement came out, you need to farm it like a maniac. Because once the vaulting happens, either you have it already, let it go completely, or shell out some plat in trading.

With the Relics, the time limit extended massively. Even in months after it is vaulted, you can still farm it at your leisure. Vaulting announced? Just need to farm the Relic and then you can crack it at your leisure. 

[O.O_]

26 minutes ago, Gamma745 said:

You can't see it at another angle? How about if we compare with Vaulted Primes?

With the old void, the time limit to farm the Primes are when they are in rotation. When the vault announcement came out, you need to farm it like a maniac. Because once the vaulting happens, either you have it already, let it go completely, or shell out some plat in trading.

With the Relics, the time limit extended massively. Even in months after it is vaulted, you can still farm it at your leisure. Vaulting announced? Just need to farm the Relic and then you can crack it at your leisure. 

I can... but what about those who have to life with way lower prices for their vaulted sets? What about that angle?

And yes, relics have some pros, like you can see what's inside without the need to use the wiki, but there are more and bigger cons.

But I see that most of you don't like to hear those cons and just keep defending an obviously worse system... be prepared for the key comeback...  surprise: now you need keys to open relics. I bet you'll find reasons to defend even that.

Edited July 12, 2017 by O.O_

[Gamma745]

Just now, O.O_ said:

I can... but what about those who have to life with way lower prices for their vaulted sets? What about that angle?

Which means those who haven't got it can get it more easier. Sound more like a pro to me. Those who are selling are most likely have one for themselves already, so that means is their greed is the one not being satisfied, not their need.

[Tsukinoki]

47 minutes ago, O.O_ said:

Nope, I'm not saying that you never had to farm for keys, they don't just materialize out of thin air, you know? I'm just saying you most likely already had the required keys by just actively playing the game.

Are you honestly trying to say that you never had to grind away at one of the few interception maps that could (if you're lucky) give you the T4 key you need for a new piece?  Or did you mean that by "acitively playing the game" you meant playing on those interception maps and not playing anything else?

Because there were lots of people that complained about the T4 grind.  Because even after 4 waves of the "hard" T4 interception maps you could still end up with a T3 key.  Over and over and over again.  The grinding in order to get T4 keys was insane and much more boring and took longer than getting the new relics are.

The simple fact is that for T3 and T4 keys you had to specifically grind for them, they didn't just come buy just "actively playing the game".

So how is it that you have to spend a grind in a "double-rng" (your words) for relics, and yet you never had to deal with a "double-rng" for keys?  The fact is that you're looking back at keys with rose-tinted glasses.  You still had the grind and farm for keys.  Especially the T3/T4 ones.  And unless you practically lived on interception maps they didn't come fast or easy.  You had to go out of your way to grind for them.

47 minutes ago, O.O_ said:

Relics are more like - You want a newly released prime whatever? Go farm the required relic. You failed? Go relic farming again.... and so on.

And this is literally how keys were in the old system.  Especially with how many prime parts DE was making T4 only...
Oh you need a T4 capture key?  Well go to 4 waves of one of these two interception maps and you will have a chance at the T4 capture...or you could get any of the T3 keys instead!  Oh you didn't get the T4 capture key?  Better go back to farming that same interception map again and again until by some miracle chance you get it!

If you needed a T4 survival key?  Well go to one of these different 2 interception maps and do the exact same thing!  And just farm 4 waves over and over again in the hopes that you got the key you needed!  If you didn't get it then just go right back to farming!

Edited July 12, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[LSG501]

While the OP does come across a bit ranty I can see where's he's coming from.

If DE blesses you with decent RNG then all is good but if you don't get good RNG (and I still think there's some code behind the scenes that decides this based on your plat purchasing/use etc - not fact, just an opinion) then you're basically in for an exercise in frustration. 

Relics in themselves are fine in concept although I would like a better shift of percentage when you add reactant but it's not just the rng here, it's the rng of getting the relic we want and this gets worse every time we get new relics.   So like many other things it's rng on top of rng to get the item you want.  

I've been experiencing the annoyance of rng with the imperator vandel receiver (took around 60 runs for ONE....), the puncture mods from the razorback event (I got zero... due to the 60/60 mods) and just recently just getting the neo b3 and axi r1 relics, let alone the items from it, has been a royal pita. 

Sadly the excessive rng seems to be increasing and it's basically down to DE trying to monetise the game (no point sugar coating it) by 'encouraging' us to buy it with plat instead of the grind.  Stick a carrot in with a few people getting it really quickly so you get some 'positive' experiences on the forum to show 'it does drop' and then let others get frustrated with poor rng (or this is at least how it can appear if you look at it subjectively) and then say 'screw it' and buy it with plat instead.

Now I have no issue with DE wanting to make money although I don't agree with the approach of making the grind harder.  They could have done a 1-2 month exclusive period for plat buyers (no one should really complain about a delay for free players if they're not paying anything) or like they're doing with the latest quest warframes added in extra incentives for us to use plat etc.. Heaven forbid they could lower the prices of plat and prime access so more buy people them.... because everyone I've spoken too seems to think plat is too expensive and only buys on 75% discount and prime access prices are just stupidly high.  

Edited July 12, 2017 by LSG501

[Fallen_Echo]

16 hours ago, Dreddeth said:

Baseless rant topic detected.

Lord of the Rings spam?

Lord of the Rings spam!

Edit: By which I mean I'm going to see if I can get away with replying entirely in LotR memes, not that I'll actually flood the thread.

Because double-posting is wrong.

 

But seriously this is not feedback, this is just ranting.

[BaronKreight]

I don't know about those ppl saying smth about mathematics. You can show it if you even have anything. 

 

It's not about mathematics. It's about the process. Now you need to first grind for that giddamn rekic because there are so many of them and u need a particular ine. Then you will need to grind for those void traces. You will need to do several missions or one really long mission just to get ONE relic to radiant. That ONE radiant relic gives u a slight chance of getting a rare item. Dont even bother getting a rare item without radiant relic - thats borderline impossible.

 

More thab that you now have to worry about collecting those fissures which are all over the map.

 

So teah the grind now feels horrendously harder than it was before.

[(PSN)CaseFace8]

Both systems have big pros and big cons, neither is perfect.

For me the biggest issue with the relic system is the void traces. Sometimes its like "hey you just finished 5 ways of an Axi, here's 7 traces".  So it's RNG on top of RNG just to get the relic, then if you want to refine it you have to farm traces just for that. I can usually get plenty of relics, but I always run out of traces to refine them.

It would be great if you could use syndicates to reduce the RNG of farming relics. For example, 1k rep - Lith Pack of 3, 5k for Meso, 10k Neo, and 15k Axi. 

The biggest issue with the old system was that a lot of the rewards we in rotation C, which meant 20-30 minutes in def/surv. It was super frustrating to do 40 minutes in survival for 2 shots at a single item and then not get it, over and over.

I think the relic system is much better at getting specific rewards, (which I think is what DE was going for) but is much worse in the overall amount, (again I think DE was planning for that too).

[BaronKreight]

Maths aside it's all about the gameplay and how the player feels about it. It sued to be like this - you got the key, you go into the void and you get yourself a drop roll. Sure it felt frustrating when you've been doing the same void mission over and over to not get what you wanted but it was simpler.

 

Now the process has multiple stages. You must the relic first, then you need to get void traces to get to radiant and only then you will get a chance to roll a drop. All this is mixed with another step - collecting void fissures. Bottom line is the process now is more complicated than it used to be.

[True_Naeblis]

The main issue with the current system is that getting the relics--a 12% chance at best for some of them--then getting the item to drop, after having farmed traces to get a radiant for the rarest items can feel less than rewarding if said item doesn't actually show up. That said, I've seen much, much worse, and offhand I can't think of any games that do it better or that even publish their rates basically across the board like DE. Even better than most titles, if you really want to skip the grind you can let other players farm and spend plat directly on what you want. Most other games require you to pay real money just to get your hands on the RNG items to begin with, and the rates are beyond abysmal for the rarest items. Seeing titles where people have to drop hundreds for costmetics in RNG "gotcha" boxes kills me.

This system isn't perfect, the grind could be reduced slightly, but overall it's pretty fair to both players and the devs.

[Buff00n]

One player's "it's too complicated" is another player's "now there's finally some variety", which I believe was the entire point of the relic change.  

CSB time: Back when Vauban Prime was released I remember putting in roughly twenty hours of nothing but T3Surv just to get one part.  With a 5% drop rate, you had about a 1 in 20 chance of going that long without a drop, so that brutal experience wasn't even that uncommon among millions of players.  With the next prime release, it took me seventeen 4-man radiant shares to get the Galantine Prime BP.   You have about a 1 in 850 chance to go that long without a drop, which is a far more uncommon RNG result.  However, the experience was still way better because I got to actually play more of the game rather than sitting on one node for hours and hours.

Yes, it's not perfect  There are only a small handful of ways to get relics that are far more efficient than all the others. The rate of void trace acquisition is pretty insulting.  There's very little point to any refinement other than radiant.  The bonuses for endless fissure missions could be better.  If you're trying to acquire older prime parts then it's much harder to find groups running the relic you need.  There are few reasons to go back to the Void now.  

Still, it's objectively an improvement.  I suspect that most people who "feel" it's worse or too complicated simply miss the social aspects of camping T3Surv for hours with their buddies.  That's a legitimate complaint, but it has very little to do with RNG.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

16 hours ago, Cortanis said:

A LOT of people want this actually. At least to some degree.

A lot of people want gaa at 5 cents a gallon. A lot of people want USA cops to stop killing the people they are supposed to protect. A lot of people want to live forever.

Of COURSE you want the use 1 key= 100 parts back. It was profit like no other system. Kinda like giving a dollar to go open packs of Magic the gathering until your fingers are sore. No store or company could do that....so what reason do you all not be grateful for DE doing it for as long as they did? Nope....gotta alwaya bring up WHEN VOID WAS GREAT. 

Come on kid. I know that all of you out therw that want Ols Void back canno be a 16 year old just having his hair on his chest sprouting and thinking he is He-Man now? You all had a grand run of Old Void and making much off of it. Now pull up and hero up- you all nothing should come as free nowadays. 

Play the game....not complain about it not giving you what you want. I gave up playing COD as they stopped giving Barebones. They dont miss my playing and i do not miss their slop of gaming. 

Play or walk away. It is an option.

[(XBOX)Requiem of One]

To the people who are peeking out of the mother's basements and trying to make an attempt to troll, stop being apart of the garbage generation and either discuss or get out. That simple

To everyone who has given their opinions on this topic, thanks. I will heavily admit to being extremely angry but to be fair, there is a point in time with just about every game out there that people will become infuriated with. This was mine and it decide to hit all my buttons at once. To stay on top and to elaborate a bit, let's talk about the grinding.

It is double or maybe triple the original grind in the order of such: Grind for Relic, use a lot of not needed relics to grind for traces, open relics but don't receive the item you want/need, back to grinding for more relics, etc.

So it's something like that, if I had a cycle graph or something I put it up. Do I want the items to be given to me, no. I want to earn them. I don't however, want the work to earning said items to just end up being a horrible mess of endless grinding where by the end of it, I'm just sick of playing the game. As for people talking about the amount of time with the grinding, not everyone can just play this game everyday for like 12 hours straight, looking at you wannabe trolls. People got lives to deal with too. Like I said in the first post, I spent a lot of money on this game. I literally cannot afford to do so anymore, I don't have the extra cash to.

11 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Heaven forbid they could lower the prices of plat and prime access so more people could buy* them.... because everyone I've spoken too seems to think plat is too expensive and only buys on 75% discount and prime access prices are just stupidly high.  

 Now I completely agree with part of this LSG501. The price of plat isn't so much expensive, but I just don't think people are getting much plat for the amount they're buying. As for the Prime Access, 100% agree with that. One warframe with 2 weapons and bonus accessories of some kind and 2 boosters, does not and should not cost the price of a brand new game or a brand new game's special edition, the 79.99 version. In essence, it would be like buying new characters for a fighting game and paying even more to have all the costumes and moveset. Yeah there are some people who have that kind of money that they can just toss around without a care, but now a days, most people don't have that kind of cash.

I got a bit off track, but in terms of the rock system (I'm still going to call them that), the grind is far worse than before. I'm not saying we didn't have to grind for the T4 keys, but it didn't take as much time as the new system does. Others will disagree/agree with that, but that all comes down to how people had RNG in the past. Some people had it good, others not so good. I had a bit of both at times. With the rock system, the RNG I get with it always seems bad and unfruitful. They say 10% but it honestly doesn't seem like it to me.

[blackheartstar_pc]

18 hours ago, O.O_ said:

Old system -> new items got added to existing keys -> no farming for new keys, you could directly start farming the parts (you had more then enough keys by just playing the game).

New system -> new items come with new relics -> farming for new relics before you farm the parts = double the RNG/grind... not reduced at all.

That's the reason why the second part of his post is BS and you both should think before you post.

 

P.S. There was another advantage of keys, you only needed a single key in an endless mission and had every 5 minutes a chance to get a prime part out of the same key... relics suck.

You mistake me. As far as old versus new Void go I personally liked the old system better, and complained about it daily all the way up to the point that they added endless Relic opening to endless mission type fissures. To me it was a compromise that balanced out to the point it was not worth complaining about anymore. Still have hundreds of Relics left from the switch from Keys and since I only really play/enjoy endless have built up even more by playing regular endless when endless fissures are not open. Not to mention half the time openning relics your background reward will also be another Relic with a free upgraded relic on 5th rotation. I say the rng is too generous in this game. Play for the enjoyment of killing these fools in space rather than forcing yourself to focus on farming and you will have everything before you know it.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by blackheartstar_pc

[O.O_]

29 minutes ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

I say the rng is too generous in this game.

15 hours ago, O.O_ said:

But I see that most of you don't like to hear those cons and just keep defending an obviously worse system...

At some point it gets ridiculous... please stop.

 

[blackheartstar_pc]

2 hours ago, O.O_ said:

At some point it gets ridiculous... please stop.

 

You can acquire all but the few rarest few things in this game in 6 months by playing the game. I've done it twice now. By focusing on trying to rush to get one specific at a time you are making the rng feel worse than it is. You sound just as bad as the people who complain about Nitain. Please stop.

[O.O_]

1 minute ago, blackheartstar_pc said:

You can acquire all but the few rarest few things in this game in 6 months by playing the game. I've done it twice now. By focusing on trying to rush to get one specific at a time you are making the rng feel worse than it is. You sound just as bad as the people who complain about Nitain. Please stop.

Yeah, now I see where you're coming from. Let me tell you that not everyone plays this game 24/7. You sound like you need a break from this game for a while to see clearly again... 6 months, wtf. Take a break for a few months, come back and you'll agree that the RNG/grind is everything else  but generous. Generous... you really need a long break. o.ò

[Loswaith]

17 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

In the old key system: 5% at the highest to much more average 2% from rotation C for a rare reward.  Which took quite a lot of time.

Actually the average for most parts was ~5.67%, the ~2% chance (or less) was only ever on a handful of parts.  Now it is on all rare parts, unless the are uncommon rewards as well.

17 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Radiant Relics have a 10% chance at the rare item.

While true, it takes on average 6 missions (see below) to get one chance at that 10%, thus on average 1.6667% chance per mission.

On average you gain 18 races per mission (unboosted, using a booster isn't the norm, if it was it wouldn't be a boost but a penalty for not using one), so we will go with 20 per mission to account for the traces gained when using the relic, thus 5 missions to get a relic to radiant (thus 10% chance for a rare), and one additional mission to use the relic.  Thus 6 missions for one chance at 10%, with average trace gains.
An aside bit of info is that if you were to run just 6 missions with intact relics, you would have an 11.4158% chance of having gotten at least one rare part.  If you run with intact relics and one final radiant one that is actually 18.6471% (for an average of 3.1079% per mission/relic).

 

17 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Hek even a squad of just intact relics ends up with a better chance at the rare items than the old system did...

Actually only a group of 4 with identical intact relics is better off (abet for 4 times the cost) with 7.7632% chance to get one rare part, while a group of 3 with identical intact relics is about the same with 5.8808% chance to get at-least one rare part.  Leaving groups of 1 and 2 players with identical relics worse off at 2% and 3.96% chance (respectively) to get at-least one rare part.
This gives an average of 4.901% per group (if we presume equal number of groups of each size, which is a huge presumption), or 1.9604% average chance per relic.

On Time:
At the end of the day the rare parts on only endless rotation C took longer (abet with incidental rewards), but every time you get a new part now you need to farm a relic from rotation B or C anyway (for Axi relics) from a larger pool of relics, thus the time has essentially just been moved.  While syndicate packs are actually worse for players now as they contain more potential relics than there were keys, with no "saving for future parts" option.

 

Benefits:
The only real benefit of the system is the places to farm for prime parts are more varied (which I suspect is the only reason for the change).  Fine if you just ground out a lot of void, but not much different if you mixed up where you played too.

Sure keeping the vaulted relics are a perk for people playing longer, but still have the exact same issue for newer players as the old void had for everyone.  You cant get them without trading.  While adding more relics to the pool during the unvaulted time.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Loswaith

[(XBOX)JACK BURT0N LSG]

Warframe used to be amazing. The RNG/Grind wasn't this bad when I first started playing on Xbox years ago, it's gotten progressively worse year after year (to the point of driving me and my team to uninstall). I used to do void runs all the time but after seeing how the relic system worked, I've pretty much stopped. In fact I pretty much stopped playing Warframe. I re-installed after seeing Plains of Eidolon and wanted to see what had changed in the meantime: Not much.

Sorties are still a celebration of bad ideas and broken gameplay/scaling (always nice to be forced into using a specific frame, with specific builds so you can spam a power and NOT actually play the game). On a side note: cosmetic items look like they got a huge price hike, I saw a helmet I think that was over $10, f***ing ridiculous. Don't forget about Kuva farming (grind on top of grind), plus all the broken gameplay mechanics that go with that mode (invincible enemies anyone?)

Plains of Eidolon is the first time in a long time this game has moved in the right direction, but you can probably rest assured the "Veterans" and "White Knights" around these parts will complain until they convince DE to destroy the game for the other 99% of the player base. For what its worth I've been trying to get the final piece I needed for Rhino Prime for... 1 year? 2 Years? Can't honestly remember. Logged in and saw it was out of "the vault" and just laughed. Done chasing that sh*t.

Kinda hoping Plains of Eidolon puts an end to a lot of the RNG/Vault BS but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[(PSN)RedWhiskey96]

18 hours ago, O.O_ said:

Old system -> new items got added to existing keys -> no farming for new keys, you could directly start farming the parts (you had more then enough keys by just playing the game).

New system -> new items come with new relics -> farming for new relics before you farm the parts = double the RNG/grind... not reduced at all.

That's the reason why the second part of his post is BS and you both should think before you post.

 

P.S. There was another advantage of keys, you only needed a single key in an endless mission and had every 5 minutes a chance to get a prime part out of the same key... relics suck.

Plus the repeats tooo I would like the old void  back. Only reason I go there now is for argon relic was a dumb move you could get more prime parts with a single key but hey that's just me 

[blackheartstar_pc]

3 hours ago, O.O_ said:

Yeah, now I see where you're coming from. Let me tell you that not everyone plays this game 24/7. You sound like you need a break from this game for a while to see clearly again... 6 months, wtf. Take a break for a few months, come back and you'll agree that the RNG/grind is everything else  but generous. Generous... you really need a long break. o.ò

If I ever feel burnt out or bored I will surely take a break but for the time being I'll continue to enjoy mass murder in space in my spare time :)

[Thexceedel]

 

Step 1 : Farm RNG.

Step 2 : Farm to get better RNG.

Step 3 : Farm what you actually started the farm to farm. :3

at least in the old void system i could prepare for an upcoming prime as well as having a smaller pool of sht to farm also being much more organized when its come to squads. 

 

[-BigB0ss-]

#praytherng