To the people who miss the point of so-called "melee nerf"

[Dragazer]

23 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

No it's not fine. It's an ability fueled by Tenno powers, which is exactly what Nullifiers are supposed to prevent. Then again, Shadow Step wouldn't even be a problem if enemies could react to invisibility, but since they don't this is what needs to happen.

Invisibility itself needs to be brought down in terms of survivability, but not by nerfing individual frames. That be too much work to touch every single frame. To future proof enemies against being completely helpless against invisible enemies stealth detecting units need to be introduced to every faction, like DE said they would do when they designed Hyekka Masters.

nerfing invis would still effectively be nerfing those 4 frames.

If something needs to be brought down its Naramon not the actual invis.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Dragazer

[disco_inferno6]

7 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Your join date was 2015 so I'll put in a little history.

Invisibility, ever since the game has been in closed beta has always forced stealth damage regardless of hits.

It was until a change in June 2014 that changed this accidentally.

That is 100% intended the proc came from melee weapon and is supposed deal more damage while invis

It is not a bug, but actually a bug fix from a really old bug back in June 2014:

And from the above post quote from DE Reb: 

It wasn't until recently this year that DE managed to fix this issue:

The Glast Gambit: Hotfix 19.6.3

Changes

• Enemies no longer receive a mental perception of an attacker, but rather mental perception of the source object. This causes them to play a reaction and become alert, but not have any extra information about the player. Enemies that are shot with projectiles that are silent and/or without a sound effect will now report a visual perception (rather than doing nothing). Previously enemies knew the exact location of their attacker when taking damage, regardless of the source. 

 

 

The stealth multiplier not applying on every hit was a bug along with enemies somehow knowing your exact location despite being hit by silent weapons when they changed stealth mechanics back in June 2014

 

 

Very well thought out comment. Thumbs up.

 

It is obviously a bug.

Edited July 22, 2017 by disco_inferno6

[unknow99]

I hope that all these issues will grow until DE takes a look at Stealth as a whole...

[AuroraSonicBoom]

7 hours ago, Dragazer said:

nerfing invis would still effectively be nerfing those 4 frames.

If something needs to be brought down its Naramon not the actual invis.

So? If you had to be more careful to avoid detection that's a completely reasonable drawback to the ridiculous advantage invisibility brings to the table by default. Both invisibility frames and naramon need a nerf, although not in a sledgehammer kind of way.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

A few years ago, melee combos would last just a few seconds, only a few number of frames could be invisible and melee only gameplay was a high risk mode for more skilled players.

Now you can use naramon to stays invisible, with a combo timer of +10s, while your combo multiplier and crit chance are boosted in several ways. 

Melee is the strongest weapon category ingame right now but what makes it cheesy is naramon. You can take a good crit weapon, activate naramon and handle the contorl to a person who never played this game and they can run 1 hour in Mot while watching netflix. It requires 0 skills. just press melee.

Im against asking for nerfs but Naramon is just easy mode. I dont even use it anymore.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

So? If you had to be more careful to avoid detection that's a completely reasonable drawback to the ridiculous advantage invisibility brings to the table by default. Both invisibility frames and naramon need a nerf, although not in a sledgehammer kind of way.

Invisibility frames do not need a nerf, they won't last a second in high lvl gameplay without it, and it's worse enough that one stray bullet/AOE is basically a death sentence to them, plus DE made it where enemies (most of them anyway) will attack their last known position which encourages players to move fast. So if DE is going to nerf invisibility as a whole, I expect some Ehp buffs to Loki, ivara, and Octavia (ash doesn't really need it).

[DatDarkOne]

12 hours ago, aligatorno said:

There are only 4 stealth frames : Loki, Ivara, Ash and Octavia. And they are not underplayed at all, all 4 of them are rather popular. 

Blinding frames still work the same as before, which means Radial Blinding Excal, Sleeping Arrow Ivara, Sleep Equinox, Blind Inaros, Paralyze Valkyr etc are not affected by this change. 

This would probably be why I never even noticed it.  :D

12 hours ago, DrBorris said:

This is just more evidence for Banshee being the superior stealth Warframe.

 

And melee is still the most powerful and easiest way to deal damage, no tears shed here. 

I agree.  :D

11 hours ago, Dragazer said:

Your join date was 2015 so I'll put in a little history.

Invisibility, ever since the game has been in closed beta has always forced stealth damage regardless of hits.

It was until a change in June 2014 that changed this accidentally.

That is 100% intended the proc came from melee weapon and is supposed deal more damage while invis

It is not a bug, but actually a bug fix from a really old bug back in June 2014:

And from the above post quote from DE Reb: 

It wasn't until recently this year that DE managed to fix this issue:

The Glast Gambit: Hotfix 19.6.3

Changes

• Enemies no longer receive a mental perception of an attacker, but rather mental perception of the source object. This causes them to play a reaction and become alert, but not have any extra information about the player. Enemies that are shot with projectiles that are silent and/or without a sound effect will now report a visual perception (rather than doing nothing). Previously enemies knew the exact location of their attacker when taking damage, regardless of the source. 

 

 

The stealth multiplier not applying on every hit was a bug along with enemies somehow knowing your exact location despite being hit by silent weapons when they changed stealth mechanics back in June 2014

 

Thank you so much for this.  I started playing right as Shadow Debt ended, and didn't even know about some of this.  Thank you again for the effort you put in to this post.  :D

[Aphelion_Sole]

Are we starting the anti Naramon movement? A a Madurai user this brings a tear to my eye.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

45 minutes ago, williamwatsonMH4 said:

Are we starting the anti Naramon movement? A a Madurai user this brings a tear to my eye.

I'm pretty sure there was a anti naramon movement ever since naramon became a thing. Because being able to replace 4 stealth frames with a simple focus power that also pushes the limits of the already messed up balance of warframe was a rash decision on DE's part.

Edited July 23, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[-Krism-]

No idea what you're talking about.

[[DE]Momaw]

On 7/22/2017 at 8:57 AM, --Q--Voltage said:

What is ironic is the people that say "X ruins my fun" cry for a nerf to ruin everyone else's fun.

I really do not understand this "fairness" mentality, and wanting everyone to be at a similar power level because someone says something is overpowered.

a.) Because Warframe is a cooperative game. When one player is massively more powerful than everybody else in ways that trivialize content, it takes gameplay away from other people who can't even contribute because they can't find anything to kill.

b.) Because huge disparities in power reduces gameplay variety.  If all the guns in the game do 100 damage, and then one single outlier does 1000, where's the variety?  People want to feel like they can use what they like, play how they like, without handicapping themselves.  They want the freedom to choose style and fun mechanics over damage numbers, and gross imbalances prevent that.

[Imniscor]

On 22/07/2017 at 11:07 AM, Dragazer said:

Your join date was 2015 so I'll put in a little history.

Invisibility, ever since the game has been in closed beta has always forced stealth damage regardless of hits.

It was until a change in June 2014 that changed this accidentally.

That is 100% intended the proc came from melee weapon and is supposed deal more damage while invis

It is not a bug, but actually a bug fix from a really old bug back in June 2014:

And from the above post quote from DE Reb: 

It wasn't until recently this year that DE managed to fix this issue:

The Glast Gambit: Hotfix 19.6.3

Changes

• Enemies no longer receive a mental perception of an attacker, but rather mental perception of the source object. This causes them to play a reaction and become alert, but not have any extra information about the player. Enemies that are shot with projectiles that are silent and/or without a sound effect will now report a visual perception (rather than doing nothing). Previously enemies knew the exact location of their attacker when taking damage, regardless of the source. 

 

 

The stealth multiplier not applying on every hit was a bug along with enemies somehow knowing your exact location despite being hit by silent weapons when they changed stealth mechanics back in June 2014

 

I'm quoting you again because quoting you once or twice is not enough. My respects to you for using your time to pull it out.

< My join date : February 10, 2013 (this is when I created the forum account, because I play since mid 2012)

because of this ^ I can testify that everything you said is TRUE.

Now, in my humble opinion, focus skills and the operator was the worst thing that ever happened to this game. I'm a Vazarin and Unairu user by the way.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Momaw said:

a.) Because Warframe is a cooperative game. When one player is massively more powerful than everybody else in ways that trivialize content, it takes gameplay away from other people who can't even contribute because they can't find anything to kill.

b.) Because huge disparities in power reduces gameplay variety.  If all the guns in the game do 100 damage, and then one single outlier does 1000, where's the variety?  People want to feel like they can use what they like, play how they like, without handicapping themselves.  They want the freedom to choose style and fun mechanics over damage numbers, and gross imbalances prevent that.

a) It is a cooperative game. If someone has a lot of power, you can use something similar, or let the mission be finished. You can party with friends clan mates or solo if you wish.

b) We have riven mods. If you feel your weapon cannot compare to another, you are free to grind or pay for stats that boost your weapon. 

[[DE]Momaw]

48 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

a) It is a cooperative game. If someone has a lot of power, you can use something similar, or let the mission be finished. You can party with friends clan mates or solo if you wish.

b) We have riven mods. If you feel your weapon cannot compare to another, you are free to grind or pay for stats that boost your weapon. 

a.) Using something of equivalent power doesn't matter because the person that oneshots or auto-kills everything first is the only one playing. The game doesn't scale to meet the power of the players. If one player is oneshotting everything or using auto-kill radial damage, the game doesn't give the enemies 10x more health to compensate, and for technological reasons there is a max spawn count (not that it would matter if you're AOE'ing everything since our AOE doesn't have a max target count).   And "let the mission be finished" is known as being carried. A lot of people don't like to be carried, and find it either boring or insulting.  The best gameplay balance lets everybody participate and be useful to the mission, and things that DON'T allow this, need to be looked at.

b.) I don't understand your point.  Rivens scale off base performance.  People don't use rivens for pathetic weapons because there's nothing to scale from, and for the most part they preserve the heirarchy of which weapons are top shelf simply because the things that MAKE a weapon top shelf (strong crit performance, strong status performance, casual AOE) stay relational. Maybe a 1-in-a-million riven can make a mediocre weapon perform like a meta one, but that's not a realistic hope.Also, you can't pull desirable rivens out of a hat; they represent multiple layers of luck or extreme degrees of pay2win depending if you make them or buy them. This is another barrier to using well-balanced weapons when outliers exist that provide equal or better performance for much less hassle. The handicap in this situation is in time or cost of acquisition. As a result DE has said they will not use rivens as a baseline for gameplay balance

Edited July 23, 2017 by Momaw

[AuroraSonicBoom]

17 hours ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Invisibility frames do not need a nerf, they won't last a second in high lvl gameplay without it, and it's worse enough that one stray bullet/AOE is basically a death sentence to them, plus DE made it where enemies (most of them anyway) will attack their last known position which encourages players to move fast. So if DE is going to nerf invisibility as a whole, I expect some Ehp buffs to Loki, ivara, and Octavia (ash doesn't really need it).

Yes, they do need a nerf. They should last roughly the same amount of time as non invisible frames with average armor on high level missions, which is like 2 seconds. Invisibility should never rival actual physical tankiness, or even surpass it. Invisibility itself needs to be less useful as a mechanic, not individual frames. Otherwise you'd have to adjust every frame with an overpowered stealth element separately.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

39 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

a) It is a cooperative game. If someone has a lot of power, you can use something similar, or let the mission be finished. You can party with friends clan mates or solo if you wish.

b) We have riven mods. If you feel your weapon cannot compare to another, you are free to grind or pay for stats that boost your weapon. 

A)that exactly the problem, the fact that I'm forced to use similar powerful equipment of other players just to feel revelent in a mission, playing with your friends/clan will barely change that since they're most likely using the some powerful equipment. This "cooperative" game turns into the "who can nuke groups of enemies faster game" game

B) Rivens mods are pure RNG and the fact that I have to rely on 3+ layers of RNG or pay 150+ plat just to make my gun just as good as another is just pitiful.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

18 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Yes, they do need a nerf. They should last roughly the same amount of time as non invisible frames with average armor on high level missions, which is like 2 seconds. Invisibility should never rival actual physical tankiness, or even surpass it. Invisibility itself needs to be less useful as a mechanic, not individual frames. Otherwise you'd have to adjust every frame with an overpowered stealth element separately.

Except those non invisible frames usually have an ability that helps them avoid damage or stun lock an entire map. Invisibility as of now only gives you extra melee damage and avoid enemy aggro, however any stray bullet or AOE will just kill them. Except for ash, every stealth frame has below average Ehp nerfing their only reliable way to stay alive in high lvl content would be outright stupid, DE needs to nerf naramon shadow step since that's what got people discussing the usefulness of invisibility in the first place.

Edited July 23, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[aligatorno]

18 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

Yes, they do need a nerf. They should last roughly the same amount of time as non invisible frames with average armor on high level missions, which is like 2 seconds. Invisibility should never rival actual physical tankiness, or even surpass it. Invisibility itself needs to be less useful as a mechanic, not individual frames. Otherwise you'd have to adjust every frame with an overpowered stealth element separately.

The problem is that their powers are developed so to work best when invisible, compared to other low armor warframes, they don't have the CC or damage mitigation necessary to handle not being invisible. 

Sure, Loki has Radial Disarm, but it's a rather long cast skill  which can sentence him to death if it is started in the wrong place.Otherwise he has no other CC abilities that are remotely useful in when surrounded. 

Ivara has her Artemis Bow for damage and Sleeping Arrow for CC, she has no means of dealing quickly when surrounded. Sleep Arrow has a weird range, and Artemis Bow is not the quickest to fire. Her invisibility bubble works decently as long as enemies are not targeting her, because I had enemies come in it and attack me. 

These two would suffer the most out of the 4 stealth frames. 

Octavia has her Mallet and Roller which make provide both great CC and great damage. While she is fairly weak, she at least has some CC that can take the attention off of her. 

Ash doesn't have cc at all except for smoke bomb's stun, but at least he has immunity during Bladestorm. 

 

Other low armor/squishy warframes however have either really good CCs, either straight down hard CC or damage mitigation. Mag has her Pull which has a really good range and affects enemies 360^o , she has Magnetize which makes her immune to pretty much anything, and Crush. Banshee has her Sound Barrage which is kinda like Pull, but in the opposite direction, she has Silence and Sound quake. Nova has her Slow, Zephyr has Turbulance and Tornado, Mirage has HoM and Eclipse and so on. 

These frames are meant to be played in the open and have countermeasures for that, the stealth frames, especially Loki and Ivara, do not. Nerfing their invisibility without them receiving tweaks and buffs would not be good for the ones playing them . Naramon needs tweaks, not invisibility as a whole. 

Edited July 23, 2017 by aligatorno

[Xion]

Was fun while it lasted... Good thing I have this :)

On 7/22/2017 at 5:37 AM, Epsik-kun said:

And there are still ways to force stealth multipliers through invisibility which are available after fulfilling a specific condition which can be used by any frame to an extent and extremely effectively by selected few frames.

 

[AEP8FlyBoy]

I really hope this whole thing is just a bug, because Stealth damage has always worked on every hit and DOT, not just the first.
This is going to really hurt Warframes that prioritize either Melee or a combination of Stealth and Melee to actually do damage.

If this was a step taken by DE to deter Naramon's Shadow Step users. Why they heck didn't they just tweak Shadow Step?
Maybe this will get some attention. I just hope it is a bug, and not an actual change.