Is Lenz too powerful for bow and explosive weapon (unbalance)

[ashrah]

its very dangerous wepon.... self hrm wepons are very bad cz u are forced to camp...

[Aldarys_]

Players asking for a weapon nerf on a coop game. That's something new for me.

[Timedawn]

4 minutes ago, Sypherys said:

Players asking for a weapon nerf on a coop game. That's something new for me.

You better get used to it, people do that very often here :>

[Aldarys_]

28 minutes ago, Timedawn said:

You better get used to it, people do that very often here :>

What is the purpose ?

[Timedawn]

22 minutes ago, Sypherys said:

What is the purpose ?

Apparently people don't like it when other people play with stuff that is better than the stuff they like using? (its not even better than most stuff but yeah)
I have honestly no clue.

If it was incredibly broken and pretty much forcing you to use it to be relevant I could understand wanting to nerf it.. but that isnt the case at all.

[Aldarys_]

Thank you for your answers Timedawn

[kyori]

2 hours ago, Sypherys said:

Players asking for a weapon nerf on a coop game. That's something new for me.

Those people are being detested and despised upon by the normal community

[HunRii]

2 hours ago, Timedawn said:

Apparently people don't like it when other people play with stuff that is better than the stuff they like using? (its not even better than most stuff but yeah)
I have honestly no clue.

If it was incredibly broken and pretty much forcing you to use it to be relevant I could understand wanting to nerf it.. but that isnt the case at all.

Which is so true.  The weapon is unique.  It is powerful in some aspects, with major drawbacks to it.  It's not a weapon that will get a lot of use with how the game play works in most missions.  The fast pace that normally occurs makes the weapon more of a liability than it is useful.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can see where the bow can shine, but it takes effort and specific frame loadouts to make it work in manner that won't kill yourself along the way.

[Thundervision]

Tonkor (in OP days):

• Total ammo is 42 grenades: 2|40
• BP can be pruchased for :
  • x800 Cryo
  • x200 Oxium
  • x2 Argon
  • x1500 Salvage
• Literally made of sheit and can clear some tiles with a single grenade.
• Requires MR5.
• Self-damage is negligible ~20 points.
• Can use Firestorm.
• Can use Adhesive Blast.
• Grenades explode when hit the enemy or on any hit when gaining high velocity.
• Split Chamber gives 2 grenades with own bouncing, so the first one can detonate and kill enemies while the other one can bounce off the obstacles and work as proximity mine.
• Status-% of 10%.
• Projectile has a Puncture damage.
• The only drawbacks are arc trajectory and poor accuracy at close-range

Lenz:

• Total ammo is 6 charges and innate Mutation won't help you if you're fighting w/o Vacuum in tight tiles when Lenz' AoE fills about the half of it
• Limited to Clan Research along with reasonable research and crafting costs:
  • 72Hrs research
  • x1000^{(x3/x10/x30/x100}) Fieldron Sample
  • x1200^{(x3/x10/x30/x100}) Annoy Plate
  • x7500^{(x3/x10/x30/x100)} Polymers
  • x50^{(x3/x10/x30/x100)} Neurodes
    • x10 Fieldron
    • x8200 Annoy Plate
    • x3 Nitain
    • x2400 Cryo
• Requires MR8.
• Can easily kill its owner if fired at point blank given the Cold proc and big AoE range.
• Can't use Firestorm.
• Can't use Adhesive Blast.
• Can't use Thunderbolt.
• (?)Doesn't gain x2 fire rate from Fire Rate mods unlike any other bow.
• Alarming.
• While it doesn't detonate on ally hit, it still inflicts a self-Cold proc.
• Works awkwardly with ragdolled or suspended enemies by inflicting only a physical damage without marking the area for AoE explosion (same goes for hitting the corpses).
• When enemies are killed by a projectile, AoE explosion either occurs where they were killed or where the body was impaled.
• Status-% of 5%.
• Projectile has an Impact damage.
• Projectile has an arc trajectory.

 

I fail to see how the weapon is OP with so many drawbacks while having good stats and reasonable cost ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited August 9, 2017 by Thundervision
typos; I also forgot to mention that Tonkor's explosion could deal headshot damage back then

[Twistedsparkle]

stop
just stop

do not ruin this weapon
its like the only self dmg weapon I dont hate furiously

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

5 hours ago, Thundervision said:

Tonkor (in OP days):

• Total ammo is 42 grenades: 2|40
• BP can be pruchased for :
  • x800 Cryo
  • x200 Oxium
  • x2 Argon
  • x1500 Salvage
• Literally made of sheit and can clear some tiles with a single grenade.
• Requires MR5.
• Self-damage is negligible ~20 points.
• Can use Firestorm.
• Can use Adhesive Blast.
• Grenades explode when hit the enemy or on any hit when gaining high velocity.
• Split Chamber gives 2 grenades with own bouncing, so the first one can detonate and kill enemies while the other one can bounce off the obstacles and work as proximity mine.
• Status-% of 10%.
• Projectile has a Puncture damage.
• The only drawbacks are arc trajectory and poor accuracy at close-range

Lenz:

• Total ammo is 6 charges and innate Mutation won't help you if you're fighting w/o Vacuum in tight tiles when Lenz' AoE fills about the half of it
• Limited to Clan Research along with reasonable research and crafting costs:
  • 72Hrs research
  • x1000^{(x3/x10/x30/x100}) Fieldron Sample
  • x1200^{(x3/x10/x30/x100}) Annoy Plate
  • x7500^{(x3/x10/x30/x100)} Polymers
  • x50^{(x3/x10/x30/x100)} Neurodes
    • x10 Fieldron
    • x8200 Annoy Plate
    • x3 Nitain
    • x2400 Cryo
• Requires MR8.
• Can easily kill its owner if fired at point blank given the Cold proc and big AoE range.
• Can't use Firestorm.
• Can't use Adhesive Blast.
• Can't use Thunderbolt.
• (?)Doesn't gain x2 fire rate from Fire Rate mods unlike any other bow.
• Alarming.
• While it doesn't detonate on ally hit, it still inflicts a self-Cold proc.
• Works awkwardly with ragdolled or suspended enemies by inflicting only a physical damage without marking the area for AoE explosion (same goes for hitting the corpses).
• When enemies are killed by a projectile, AoE explosion either occurs where they were killed or where the body was impaled.
• Status-% of 5%.
• Projectile has an Impact damage.
• Projectile has an arc trajectory.

 

I fail to see how the weapon is OP with so many drawbacks while having good stats and reasonable cost ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is a nice post.

Tonkor before the nerf without self damage was what made it even more ridiculous, it was high AoE damage without having to bother putting some distance or even using a brain cell. Target was 1 meter away? It didn't matter. With Lenz however you can still do that, as long as you can get out fast enough (I do it with Rhino because I don't get the procs so I can shoot the ground below me with Lenz and quickly escape and have targets behind me just pop out of existence, with other frames that can't resist procs it's harder), but it's not really that Viable with many frames and in many tiles.

Tonkor and Lenz despite being alike they can still fill slightly different roles or be used in different occasions. Tonkor having a more accentuated arc and being a grenade allows you to kill things by bouncing around corners or over obstacles, it's actually one of the things I enjoyed with Tonkor, it's was quite interesting to use it on the corpus outpost (usually Hieracon) and lob it over obstacles and watch enemies flying all over the place. In the huge T shaped tile in that set that has a landing pad in the middle and another landing pad with containers higher up it was quite fun to lob Tonkor nades from the bottom of the map over the mounds on top and kill enemies there, Lenz can't really do that, it only has a few meters away of it's explosion that doesn't require LoS, the arc isn't accentuated enough to lob arrows over obstacles and honestly the arc doesn't really have a good thing about it unlike Tonkor's.


Lenz also brought improvements to AoE visibility on other weapons, like the Javlok alt fire (I'm okay with the alt fire doing self damage, but the main fire mod it's just silly since the AoE on that is nothing special against enemies, it's a minor plus to make it different from other spearguns, but the self damage on main fire just has to go when the Scourge does not have that and has a wider AoE).

It has a much lower sustainability and requires the user to move forward but while also forcing them to stay away from the enemy so they don't kill themselves, pre nerf tonkor had more ammo and didn't need to care about staying away from the enemy.

 

Lenz is just a better explosive weapon in the way that it improved they way they work (much like the mod for the Penta does despite no longer killing off the self damage), but in trade it's very limited until you can move forward to get more ammo, plus to get a faster charge you need to take out a damage mod, so if you want to fire nearly as fast as other launchers you will lower the gun's firepower (in itself, not comparing with others). If other weapons like the Zarr or Orgris got improvements from the Lenz, they would be slightly more manageable in their explosions, for example the Zarr hitting a team mate wouldn't proc the initial AoE damage but would still send the tiny missiles flying, this way you wouldn't kill yourself but still get part of the damage if an enemy was close by.

 

It is also a direct fire weapon unlike being a launcher, and launchers usually are a hard fitting niche in games that limit the loadouts the way we do (MGS5 for example has limits that are alike ours, and grenade launchers there are a niche that people rarely use unless it's the launchers that you attach to other weapons or very specific missions that allow them to use launchers efficiently and aren't long missions), you basically lose access to a strong weapon to instead use a situational weapon, so you have to rely a lot more in weapon switching and use your secondary, which there is nothing wrong in there but usually you will benefit more from using a strong weapon that doesn't require you to switch to secondary all the time (since holster is slow and clunky).

[TacticalImouto]

Nerf when

 

I'm getting tired of seeing Lenz in everygame or Lenz with ember WoF in any excavation or surv/defence. It's almost like the tonkor days and anyone saying it's balanced has their head up their bottoms.

And yeah balancing is a thing in coop games simply because they make the content too easy for one or why do u think they nerf things? lmao

has no status? Who cares when u can easily reach orange crits and one hit lvl 125 gunners anyways. And no, u dont need any thought using this weapon because it has huge AOE with a cold proc  and comparing it to euphona prime is just stupid.

Edited August 9, 2017 by TacticalImouto

[DarkRuler2500]

Not too strong.

Damage is good but it...

deals self-damage alot
has a delayed explosion
=> shoting on targets running towards you is especially dangerous

only has 6 shots
 

[Gamma745]

19 minutes ago, TacticalImouto said:

Nerf when

 

I'm getting tired of seeing Lenz in everygame or Lenz with ember WoF in any excavation or surv/defence. It's almost like the tonkor days and anyone saying it's balanced has their head up their bottoms.

And yeah balancing is a thing in coop games simply because they make the content too easy for one or why do u think they nerf things? lmao

has no status? Who cares when u can easily reach orange crits and one hit lvl 125 gunners anyways. And no, u dont need any thought using this weapon because it has huge AOE with a cold proc  and comparing it to euphona prime is just stupid.

Really? Will it be, in a few days, everyone is using Lenz to the point of ignoring everything else? Because I saw someone in the Update note thread saying that Lenz is mastery fodder due to self-damage. We shall see that in due time.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, TacticalImouto said:

Nerf when

 

I'm getting tired of seeing Lenz in everygame or Lenz with ember WoF in any excavation or surv/defence. It's almost like the tonkor days and anyone saying it's balanced has their head up their bottoms.

And yeah balancing is a thing in coop games simply because they make the content too easy for one or why do u think they nerf things? lmao

has no status? Who cares when u can easily reach orange crits and one hit lvl 125 gunners anyways. And no, u dont need any thought using this weapon because it has huge AOE with a cold proc  and comparing it to euphona prime is just stupid.

Lol, how with what build? My lenz hasnt been upped to lv30 yet and it struggles to kill lv115 ancient infested.

[MasterControl]

Lenz is fine. The damage is high but it's not bonkers (looking at you opticor) and as many have stated it's a suicide machine which requires you to be in close quarters to refill ammo. That combined with the delayed explosion which can limit your escape options if you use it carelessly, innate blast damage (holy crap blast is a bad damage type) VERY low ammo capacity (if you're not paying attention, you'll run out very quickly, try to take a shot and find yourself shooting the floor with your pistols trying to get the AOE), and pitiful status make it a powerful but risky weapon. Great for trash mobs, won't do jack against anything highly mobile or super tanky.

 

P.S. Whoever was in charge of the sound design for this friggin thing needs a raise, it sounds so bloody powerful and amazing.

 

Edit: If you think Lenz is OP, try killing a Manic or a Nox with it.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Mastercontrol98

[(PSN)Crixus044]

My gawd, nerf threads already? DE could come out with a weapon that is worse than the MK-1 Braton and I guarantee there's gonna be at least 1 person that will ask for a nerf, or at least say "It's fine." screenshoting a garbage build. Please the damn thing just came out. Play with it a little, take it to a mission that's at least higher than star chart, not in the starter levels, THEN say whether it needs a nerf. I'm sure you'll delete this thread once that is done.

[KrosRan]

My Dear Player...

It's for players like you that Warframe becomes a generic game ... STOP asking nerf for weapons, weapons for a PVE game, in a game that hardly has a focus on PVP! If it was PVP, that's fine ... Now it's a game against machines, MACHINES that can give you Hitkill because of players like you who asked for buffs in them ... Machines that have damage reduction, poison area damage, damage Of fire in area, globe that blocks projectiles tennos, globe of ice and derivatives.
Seriously, what It costs play the disgrace of your game in peace? Like, no complaining and everything else? WHAT DOES IT COST PLAY THE F*** OF THE GAME AND GET THE WHAT'S IN HAND? WILL F*** YOUR FINGERS JUST PLAY SHUT UP?
GO HUNTING WHAT TO DO AND SHARK, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
You're spoiling the game, overexperience with those sick requests from you!
I sincerely hope that the DE does not listen to your request, because if you listen ... Ah my friend, my congratulations for harming the experience of other players who are loving the new weapon, who are having a great experience ... Anyway , STOP! This is spoiling the game of YOU!
If you're going to nerf, NERF ATTERAX, SECURA LECTA, LACERA, ALL WEAPONS SOON AGAIN! DOT BOOT 1 FOR ALL ...
GO THERE, LEAVE 1 OF DAMAGE AND LET'S SEE IF YOU KILL SOMETHING WITH THAT!
DO YOU WANT CHALLENGE? BOOT WATERMELON IN THE HEAD AND FALL OF A BARRANCO, GO TO WORSHIP THAT CHALLENGE ...

For the love of God...

By KrosRan
(If you want to banish me for a heartfelt comment, do it as soon as possible, because if I see a nerf in this weapon without my having tried it, I'll put the caption of not leaving the game public because I'm going to hurt anyone with me)

Edited August 9, 2017 by KrosRan

[Fallen_Echo]

13 minutes ago, KrosRan said:

My Dear Player...

It's for players like you that Warframe becomes a generic game ... STOP asking nerf for weapons, weapons for a PVE game, in a game that hardly has a focus on PVP! If it was PVP, that's fine ... Now it's a game against machines, MACHINES that can give you Hitkill because of players like you who asked for buffs in them ... Machines that have damage reduction, poison area damage, damage Of fire in area, globe that blocks projectiles tennos, globe of ice and derivatives.
Seriously, what It costs play the disgrace of your game in peace? Like, no complaining and everything else? WHAT DOES IT COST PLAY THE F*** OF THE GAME AND GET THE WHAT'S IN HAND? WILL F*** YOUR FINGERS JUST PLAY SHUT UP?
GO HUNTING WHAT TO DO AND SHARK, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
You're spoiling the game, overexperience with those sick requests from you!
I sincerely hope that the DE does not listen to your request, because if you listen ... Ah my friend, my congratulations for harming the experience of other players who are loving the new weapon, who are having a great experience ... Anyway , STOP! This is spoiling the game of YOU!
If you're going to nerf, NERF ATTERAX, SECURA LECTA, LACERA, ALL WEAPONS SOON AGAIN! DOT BOOT 1 FOR ALL ...
GO THERE, LEAVE 1 OF DAMAGE AND LET'S SEE IF YOU KILL SOMETHING WITH THAT!
DO YOU WANT CHALLENGE? BOOT WATERMELON IN THE HEAD AND FALL OF A BARRANCO, GO TO WORSHIP THAT CHALLENGE ...

For the love of God...

By KrosRan
(If you want to banish me for a heartfelt comment, do it as soon as possible, because if I see a nerf in this weapon without my having tried it, I'll put the caption of not leaving the game public because I'm going to hurt anyone with me)

I already seen comments in the bug report forums where people ask to not fix the mirage clones not triggering explosion on this weapon because it could be miragulor 2.0!

They are arguing that because the simulor had a bugged interaction with mirage clones this weapon shouldnt deal explosions! They are perfectly fine with a weapon dealing 90% less damage with a skill and ask for further nerfs!

I honestly dont know whats wrong with these people.

7 shots, long charge, self damage, big range all i see is a weapon what will kill me if i dont use nyx assimilate.

[KrosRan]

10 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I already seen comments in the bug report forums where people ask to not fix the mirage clones not triggering explosion on this weapon because it could be miragulor 2.0!

They are arguing that because the simulor had a bugged interaction with mirage clones this weapon shouldnt deal explosions! They are perfectly fine with a weapon dealing 90% less damage with a skill and ask for further nerfs!

I honestly dont know whats wrong with these people.

7 shots, long charge, self damage, big range all i see is a weapon what will kill me if i dont use nyx assimilate.

Anyway, a sensible comment! You earned my respect!

[korndolorous]

Answer for who want to know why i think it's OP
        issue                                              counter part                                                                                                                                                  
very high damage and crit       |             slow fire rate , low ammo,low status  IMO : still have a lots more damage more than any bow or explosive weapon<only thing that i think it's op
Self damage                            |                                                                  IMO : that's normal for explosive weapon
low ammo                                |             it has builtin ammo conversion            IMO :  but yeah ammo max still too low
1 sec before explode               |             it has slow field and it has high range                             
need full charge to fire             |                                                                         IMO : i don't think you want to press 1 click, then arrow drop on your feet and die.
large explosive size                 |             it's better for a group of enermy , but deadly if you stuck in range of explosive

Edited August 9, 2017 by korndolorous

[Fallen_Echo]

50 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

need full charge to fire             |                                                                         IMO : i don't think you want to press 1 click, then arrow drop on your feet and die.

I would love if DE would implement this just for  and gigles.

 

[DatDarkOne]

56 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

very high damage and crit       |             slow fire rate , low ammo             IMO : still have a lots more damage more than any bow or explosive weapon<only thing that i think it's op

You left out low status and almost non-existent Stealth as a counters/issues.  As for the damage greater than other bows, my Daikyu, Rakta Cernos, and Dread say otherwise.  :D

It does do more damage to more enemies at one time.  That's something no other bow can do without Thunderbolt mod

[korndolorous]

7 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You left out low status

added

7 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

non-existent Stealth 

since when explosive weapon made for stealth? and who care about stealth
How to stealth 101: kill  all of them

Edited August 9, 2017 by korndolorous

[DatDarkOne]

3 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

since when explosive weapon made for stealth?

Almost every weapon that doesn't have a delayed blast/explosion after initial impact.  Pretty much everything except the Zakti and Lenz.  :P

4 minutes ago, korndolorous said:

and who care about stealth

I do and many others like me.  It's more than you would think.   :D