[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[(PSN)Fen_Integrum]

25 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

You mean no risk, no reward.

 

If completely ignoring enemy armor, and killing enemies without any fear of retribution means "No Reward", then Im pretty sure youre in the wrong universe, and need to find your way back to the land of make believe.

25 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

I was thinking of a corrupted heavy gunner.

Thats what you said, and thats what I looked up. A level 120 Corrupted Heavy Gunner has around 78k Health. 

25 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

Not that it matters in any way, if it's > 1 second I'll never be interested.

 

You know it was obvious, even before this statement, that you are a press 4 to win player. Thankfully, the game isnt entirely balanced around people like you.

25 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

No, he can't. If you move any previously trapped enemies are released. 

Except you are wrong. You must be thinking of the old movement system, where you move and leave Undertow. In this, enemies are only released if you leave Undertow, or if they die.

25 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

Again, doesn't matter, not interested in doing 0 damage while I go for a nap. What kind of mission is that even useful in?

You want a Press 4 to win frame. We get it already.

25 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

Ivara can shoot and do actual damage, she can roll, she can use zip lines etc. 

Hydroid can also deal deal damage, and attack at range with all three other powers in undertow. And she also has to deal with Armor. Hydroid doesnt.

25 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

But yeah, I don't like her either. I like parkouring like spiderman played back at triple speed. And mobility isn't just speed, Tidal Surge is just awful for mobility as you can't control it.

You have a preference, and that is more than okay. You having a preference doesnt mean that something unfitting of your preference is bad. 

This is a case of operator error. You can stick to your preference, and leave Hydroid for advanced players.

Tidal Surge is far from awful. Its fast as hell when equipping duration, and it goes in a straight line. You cant aim? Thats all you need to make it work well.

Tidal Surge also works with Aim glide, so you can just go in a straight line.

Edited August 15, 2017 by (PS4)Fenrushak

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

although I'm not really able to disagree with what you're saying here and now, I feel that sometimes a total rework is a solid idea, even if it might step on some toes and/or set back schedules. Doing something right, doesn't always mean doing something quick sadly. I will say this though, as nothing more than an observer to this thread, thank you for at the very least displaying some decorum in your post. I can honestly say I wish more people would convey their thoughts in such a manner.

I totally understand what you are saying. I think perhaps they should have done a real rework in this case, but I guess the issue here is I feel it may be too late for that. Hydroid rework is already on console, DE already announced Hydroid would be next so they can't pull a switcheroo now and work on him while placating us with a different male prime in the meantime. So what now? DE probably screwed up by only doing a revisit, but at this point they best they can do for now is try to tweak the revisit to make it as good as possible. 

It is disappointing for many, I know. Because frames tend to not be touched for quite some time after a revisit. 

I'm still smarting a bit from how Scott looked at Vauban, and his "revisit" was to say that Bastille-frame was totally fine and just added three new abilities that aren't as good as spamming bastille. While still leaving Bounce lingering in the pre-parkour 2.0 days as pointless for mobility. 

[RikerWatts]

Just now, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Matching what theme, the pirate theme? He's just a pirate in appearance.

You keep referencing Davy Jones, but you're going with the Pirates of the Carribian one, not the actual Davy Jones. That one's just a Skeleman, and there's not a lot of vintage artwork on him.

I don't even think I saw that movie he was in.

Though a Pirate with a water theme isn't really too hard to grasp, at least for me. What else could he do as a Pirate, honestly? Make a water sword? Excal does that. Create a cannon to fire? Boring, we got the Zarr. Shoot a water gun? Atomos. 

Fits fine in my eyes.

Why do we need energy restores when we have zenurik?
Why do we need health restores when we have trinity?
Why do we need excalibur's exalted blade when we have a selection of blades to choose from?

I've come up with abilities before on the spot that would still be water theme, the fact that something else exists doesn't mean the same concept can't be made differently. We have things that could make others obsolete, but the existence of them doesn't stop DE from making something new. Like a new one handed sword, we have skana from the start, why would DE make another sword, right? To add variety, to spice things up, mix and match styles and aesthetics.

 

 

14 minutes ago, AXCrusnik said:

Hydroid, Water/pirate (specifically secondary to water). Hydroids are creatures that inhabit water. Uses water based abilities.  Has S#&$ty sword based passive, "water cannon" barrage. Calls the Kraken.

Honestly I fail to see the issue thematically.

His passive could be changed to something that's actually better but still fits thematically.

In all, his passive is one of the worsts, oberon's old one was king but they changed that and now it's pretty damn solid and no longer conflicts with gameplay.
Hydroid being mandated to have a weapon type hinders him- for the most part since he doesn't have anything to base a melee off of like every exalted weaponizer we have currently.
The theme of him is there but the cohesion of his abilities do not mesh well to expand upon a playstyle for the frame, it is very limited to two things. The way you stated to play hydroid (opening up finishers and using undertow to stay out of damage) and pilfering swarm. One is a niche combat style that most- if not all- frames can perform just as easily with a melee weapon with anyone's capabilities, it doesn't strike as unique by any stretch of the imagination. By name, theme, and abilities, Vauben is currently our only trapper in the game, the suggested rework pulls hydroid to be proficient in that position whilst still being able to do just as well.
Hell, to compromise I saw this post on reddit with these ideas, I don't have the link on hand and I can't seem to find it, but I do remember it.

Utilize the charging aspects of hydroid's current 1 and 4 into the 2 and 3.

Starting with the ability I have the most issue with: undertow.
Undertow could have a charge factor where charging it pulls you under like it does now, but basic casting places it down as a trap like the way I mentioned in my first thread. This wouldn't compromise the existence of his current undertow, and vastly improves upon it at the same time.

With tidal surge it'd be vice versa, the quick casted version would be you going with it, the charge cast would be casting it out from you in a wave without hydroid going with the wave. This way you could benefit off both in the situation at hand.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

There is simply no way DE is going to give you what you want, at least not anytime soon, so you might as well let it go. 

You are asking for a FULL REWORK. You are asking for assets to be replaced, for entirely new abilities, entirely new mechanics. 

You are asking for an incredible amount of work, you are asking Hydroid to change from who he is. 

And with the prime coming out very soon, and the new hydroid rework already on console, I don't see how they have time at this point to do anything but a few tweaks to improve the revisit. 

What you want won't happen. They aren't going to butcher all of his abilities into something completely different just for you. They have a schedule to keep, hydroid prime will come out as planned, very similar to how he is now. If he sells well he does, if he doesn't he doesn't, but it is too late for gigantic reworks at this stage. 

I don't personally believe this would be an incredible amount of work compared to their older reworks. Limbo's is a prime example but Vauban got one and so did Excalibur. Frost's skills were decently changed moreso statwise.
They bolster his current ability set without many changes to what needed attention so desperately, it saddens me.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

2 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

Why do we need energy restores when we have zenurik?
Why do we need health restores when we have trinity?
Why do we need excalibur's exalted blade when we have a selection of blades to choose from?

I've come up with abilities before on the spot that would still be water theme, the fact that something else exists doesn't mean the same concept can't be made differently. We have things that could make others obsolete, but the existence of them doesn't stop DE from making something new. Like a new one handed sword, we have skana from the start, why would DE make another sword, right? To add variety, to spice things up, mix and match styles and aesthetics.

 

 

 

Not everyone Uses Zenurik, I prefer Harrow over Trinity, I loathe Excalibur.

I have that choice.

This game is about choices.

However, if you're not an avid Hydroid player and just want a reason to play him, please don't. Don't try and ruin it for the rest of us.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Not everyone Uses Zenurik, I prefer Harrow over Trinity, I loathe Excalibur.

I have that choice.

This game is about choices.

However, if you're not an avid Hydroid player and just want a reason to play him, please don't. Don't try and ruin it for the rest of us.

you've missed the point. he was saying why use this when we have that, to point out how much of an asinine cop-out argument it is.

 

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

you've missed the point. he was saying why use this when we have that, to point out how much of an asinine cop-out argument it is.

 

Hm. Still, the overall point here is that people are taking the headcannon of him being a full fledged Pirate into account for his abilities more than his theme, which is water. However,  it irks me when somebody that doesn't care for a frame tries to ask for changes that could and would ruin that frame for others that like it. That's my point.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Hm. Still, the overall point here is that people are taking the headcannon of him being a full fledged Pirate into account for his abilities more than his theme, which is water. However,  it irks me when somebody that doesn't care for a frame tries to ask for changes that could and would ruin that frame for others that like it. That's my point.

the point of these kinds of threads isn't to intentionally ruin a frame, but what the individual feels would be an overall better change to the frame's skillset. I know the OP fairly well, and he's no intention of attempting to ruin the frame, but remedy glaring issues he himself see's. I can't vouch for or against as I've no experience on the frame itself, hence why I have no input on the thread overall and just sit as an observer.

That being said, I can understand the issues OP has presented, but since I've no experience on the frame itself I've no room to make a case for or against. Were this a zephyr thread, I'd have ample input to lay before everyone. So, only thing I ask personally is that we stick to facts where facts are relevant and take themes into account where they're applicable.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

the point of these kinds of threads isn't to intentionally ruin a frame, but what the individual feels would be an overall better change to the frame's skillset. I know the OP fairly well, and he's no intention of attempting to ruin the frame, but remedy glaring issues he himself see's. I can't vouch for or against as I've no experience on the frame itself, hence why I have no input on the thread overall and just sit as an observer.

That being said, I can understand the issues OP has presented, but since I've no experience on the frame itself I've no room to make a case for or against. Were this a zephyr thread, I'd have ample input to lay before everyone. So, only thing I ask personally is that we stick to facts where facts are relevant and take themes into account where they're applicable.

I can understand that, and I can understand coming to your friend's aid. I've done that.

However, I've been using Hydroid for a LOOONG time, and the OP doesn't seem to have used him for too long, which is why I'm still stating why his current suggestions would not play out well for for people who actively use him, such as myself.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

I can understand that, and I can understand coming to your friend's aid. I've done that.

However, I've been using Hydroid for a LOOONG time, and the OP doesn't seem to have used him for too long, which is why I'm still stating why his current suggestions would not play out well for for people who actively use him, such as myself.

And that's something I cannot argue. I'd have to have some use on the frame to even fully understand the ramifications of any suggested changes. However, what I'm seeing here is counters to the OP's thread along the lines of "no you're wrong it won't work". So I ask, since the OP has stated why the current kit doesn't work well, can anyone enlighten me on how he currently DOES work effectively?

[[DE]Rebecca]

HOT OFF THE PRESS (not literally we don't have a press):

Since the last Hotfix and now a lot of changes are being proposed and tested.

Things change quickly so this is just our goal - not confirmed for tomorrow yet - but it's where our heads are at and what we are trying to get in:
Visually we want to get PBR done on Hydroid.
We have increased his base energy pool.
We want Tempest Barrage to have better Audio feedback on its charging.
We want Undertow to have better possible damage scaling over time and as of a couple of minutes ago we are experimenting with squadmates being able to shoot into the puddle to damage submerged enemies. Since this is a recent experiment be prepared that it might not work out quickly or work out at all!

Stay tuned for the Update Notes!

Edited August 15, 2017 by [DE]Rebecca
Added energy detail

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

2 minutes ago, ObviousLee said:

And that's something I cannot argue. I'd have to have some use on the frame to even fully understand the ramifications of any suggested changes. However, what I'm seeing here is counters to the OP's thread along the lines of "no you're wrong it won't work". So I ask, since the OP has stated why the current kit doesn't work well, can anyone enlighten me on how he currently DOES work effectively?

Well, I'd like to delve that into more of a PM for extended uses as to not clog the thread, if you wouldn't mind? I can explain fairly well how he works, his uses, strengths and weaknesses, etc.

If you have a Discord, that's even better.

Edited August 15, 2017 by (XB1)ALG Minuscule36

[ObviousLee]

Just now, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Well, I'd like to delve that into more of a PM for extended uses as to not clog the thread, if you wouldn't mind? I can explain fairly well how he works, his uses, strengths and weaknesses, etc.

honestly, I think posting it here would benefit the conversation within the thread as a whole. You might be privy to something the OP is not aware of, and vice versa. The more we as a group shift towards a mentality of what is objectively better in terms of mechanics for the frame, instead of personal views, the better.

[NightmareT12]

2 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

HOT OFF THE PRESS (not literally we don't have a press):

Since the last Hotfix and now a lot of changes are being proposed and tested.

Things change quickly so this is just our goal - not confirmed for tomorrow yet - but it's where our heads are at and what we are trying to get in:
Visually we want to get PBR done on Hydroid.
We want Tempest Barrage to have better Audio feedback on its charging.
We want Undertow to have better possible damage scaling over time and as of a couple of minutes ago we are experimenting with squadmates being able to shoot into the puddle to damage submerged enemies. Since this is a recent experiment be prepared that it might not work out quickly or work out at all!

Stay tuned for the Update Notes!

Yes! Thanks Rebecca! :)

RE: PBR on Hydroid: do you happen to know if work was started on this, so soonTM, or would that be aiming for the next update?

Thanks again space mom :)

[Archwizard]

52 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

and as of a couple of minutes ago we are experimenting with squadmates being able to shoot into the puddle to damage submerged enemies.

A good start.

Now what about making his skills more reliable, specifically in targeting the explosions from Tempest Barrage?
And addressing the difficulty allies have targeting enemies flailed around by Tentacle Swarm?
And the inability to move enemies inside of Undertow when you move it, currently making it better to jump out of Undertow before Tidal Surge?
And the continued lack of interaction between Tentacle Swarm and Undertow, or between any of his non-Undertow skills?
And how this means only one of his four skills will end up as more than a pure CC, with his 1 and 4 effectively performing the same task?
And how all four of his abilities use all three power stats?
And how his passive is still unreliable, underwhelming, redundant of his 4, and useless during Undertow?

Edited August 15, 2017 by Archwizard

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

honestly, I think posting it here would benefit the conversation within the thread as a whole. You might be privy to something the OP is not aware of, and vice versa. The more we as a group shift towards a mentality of what is objectively better in terms of mechanics for the frame, instead of personal views, the better.

Alright, I can understand that. I'm a tad busy at the moment (Shopping with the missus.) So I'll update the thread in about... 20-25 minutes with what I got. If you have any specific points you want me to go over first, please lemme know.

[FoxFX]

5 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

HOT OFF THE PRESS (not literally we don't have a press):

Since the last Hotfix and now a lot of changes are being proposed and tested.

Things change quickly so this is just our goal - not confirmed for tomorrow yet - but it's where our heads are at and what we are trying to get in:
Visually we want to get PBR done on Hydroid.
We have increased his base energy pool.
We want Tempest Barrage to have better Audio feedback on its charging.
We want Undertow to have better possible damage scaling over time and as of a couple of minutes ago we are experimenting with squadmates being able to shoot into the puddle to damage submerged enemies. Since this is a recent experiment be prepared that it might not work out quickly or work out at all!

Stay tuned for the Update Notes!

A part of me feels optimistic and another part of me feels a bit concerned now about the gimmick to shoot enemies in the puddle of Undertow. We will just need to see how it will all work out.

[ObviousLee]

Just now, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

Alright, I can understand that. I'm a tad busy at the moment (Shopping with the missus.) So I'll update the thread in about... 20-25 minutes with what I got. If you have any specific points you want me to go over first, please lemme know.

Take your time, but as far as explanation goes, explain like I'm five lol.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Just now, ObviousLee said:

Take your time, but as far as explanation goes, explain like I'm five lol.

I'll keep it simple XD

[ObviousLee]

Just now, (Xbox One)ALG Minuscule36 said:

I'll keep it simple XD

groovy. enjoy your shopping!

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

1 hour ago, Mudfam said:

You mean no risk, no reward.

I was thinking of a corrupted heavy gunner. Not that it matters in any way, if it's > 1 second I'll never be interested.

No, he can't. If you move any previously trapped enemies are released. Again, doesn't matter, not interested in doing 0 damage while I go for a nap. What kind of mission is that even useful in?

Ivara can shoot and do actual damage, she can roll, she can use zip lines etc. But yeah, I don't like her either. I like parkouring like spiderman played back at triple speed. And mobility isn't just speed, Tidal Surge is just awful for mobility as you can't control it.

Just sounds like you are an impatient child to me. It's obvious you only play low level content because a level 135 corpus tech can kill you in literally 4 shots which is a lot faster than you can shoot the dread once. 

[Vaygrim]

13 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

HOT OFF THE PRESS (not literally we don't have a press):

Since the last Hotfix and now a lot of changes are being proposed and tested.

Things change quickly so this is just our goal - not confirmed for tomorrow yet - but it's where our heads are at and what we are trying to get in:
Visually we want to get PBR done on Hydroid.
We have increased his base energy pool.
We want Tempest Barrage to have better Audio feedback on its charging.
We want Undertow to have better possible damage scaling over time and as of a couple of minutes ago we are experimenting with squadmates being able to shoot into the puddle to damage submerged enemies. Since this is a recent experiment be prepared that it might not work out quickly or work out at all!

Stay tuned for the Update Notes!

What are the odds we can get his ranges unnerfed, and the charging removed? Having a casting time of 4 seconds just to get an 'effective' version of a Hydroid ability is aggravating and difficult to pull off 'quickly' in the flow of combat like was previously possible with them.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Vaygrim
Clarificationating.

[Tesseract7777]

37 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

snip

Vauban did not get a rework, or even a revisit. 

He was given three sloppy new abilities that took almost no effort to make, code or animate, and we were told "everything else is fine" even though it clearly isn't. 

He was given three new problems, that's all. That's not a rework or a revisit. 

Why do I say little coding or animating? Shred and Concuss seem like they were thrown together in a day, basically almost no animation at all, a laser trip wire? They basically just threw together some new garbage and called it a day. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

Undertow Feedback: Vacuum'd items keep blocking the grab targets makes it difficult to pull them in.

Edited August 15, 2017 by (PS4)Shaun-T-Wilson

[Porcelain]

I should have expressed my opinion way earlier.

I welcome these changes with a neutral mindset. These aren't bad, but it still makes Hydroid a little clunky. I believe it requires just a bit more work on abilities:
-Tempest Barrage does not require a charge for double damage. The duration buff is good enough. Take out the "cooldown" after casting it. Make it kind of spammable, like Vauban's throwables. The damage on Tempest Barrage isn't be high enough such that this strategy becomes broken.
-Reduce cost of Tidal Surge while in Undertow by a bit, but not below or 50%. This will entice Hydroid players to be able to round up enemies like a shepherd.
-Make that when casting Tidal Surge during Undertow, it would drag enemies into Undertow instead of being pushed back. There were instances where enemies knocked by Tidal Surge were not dragged into Undertow after Hydroid stopped moving and the enemies remained above the pool.

 

[Jimmeh420]

So a few things:

- Make his 1 a bit more consistent. It's a great ability but still lacking a bit of consistency. I feel like there is too much time between each barrage.

- His 4 should summon tentacles which seek out enemies and slam the ground which knocks them down. Keeps his decent CC while removing the annoying part of enemies flailing around. Besides, it makes no sense for tentacles to impale enemies. It should either be holding them up by wrapping around enemies or slamming the ground.

- I really wish you wouldn't work around Undertow. It's possibly the most annoying and boring ability to use. I'd recommend a new 3 and possibly a new 2 as well by moving his 2 to his roll.