self damge and players complaining

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

why do so meany people shoot themselves and then blame the gun?

including the penta....

stop shooting yourself, cause i don't want more weapon nurfs 

[KirukaChan]

How exactly is changing how self damage works a "nerf"?

[Hemmo67]

3 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

How exactly is changing how self damage works a "nerf"?

if u reduce self dmg it's nerf to the damage you inflict on yourself

[NinjaZeku]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

why do so meany people shoot themselves

A good portion of the time, it's not even directly the player's fault, but maybe just, say,
some Squad member / AI ally running in front of them or in general AoEs being hard to judge perfectly without visual indicators.

Lenz is great in these regards, cancelling the kerboom when you hit an ally
and giving you a clear preview of (and Cold proc warning for) the blast radius.

10 minutes ago, KirukaChan said:

How exactly is changing how self damage works a "nerf"?

Yeah I dunno either. *shrug*

[-Temp0-]

Don't make more self-damage weapons, duh. Apparently it's hard af to restrain yourself from creating weapons with dumb archaic mechanics because you want to cover up the nerfs more easily.

Most weapons that deal self-damage in WF are godawful because grenades bounces off the wall, enemies and even teammates coupled with the fact that most maps are claustraphobically tight and narrow - people don't "shoot themselves", the mechanics is just dumb. Like fine you deal damage to yourself, but one-hit kill - most weapons vs most frames even with quick thinking? I can't really name something more stupid than this. The only weapon that is okey-ish so far is Lenz because of the way it fires and penta with the augment but penta is pretty pointless weapon as it is.

[artemisfortune]

1 minute ago, -Temp0- said:

Apparently it's hard af to restrain yourself from creating weapons with dumb archaic mechanics because you want to cover up the nerfs more easily.

Lmao what.

[LSG501]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

why do so meany people shoot themselves and then blame the gun?

including the penta....

stop shooting yourself, cause i don't want more weapon nurfs 

um.... larger than anticipated splash damage due to bugged splash damage (lenz does this a fair bit), unexpected instant explosion on nullifier bubble which just starts to 'regrow' (lenz), sticky grenades stick to enemy and enemy moves towards you, rebounding off lagging player or even an enemy which 'jumps' at the wrong moment (infested for example), unexpected bounce directions due to weird physics calculation/clipping of environment... there's more than 'shooting yourself' that can cause you to get killed by self damage.

And technically removing the self damage would be a buff because we'd literally be able to shoot at our feet and kill everything without hurting ourselves....

Do I like self damage, no, considering the way the game is hosted and the potential for lag along with the 'speed' of the game etc self damage isn't really a good thing for fun gameplay imo. 

Edited September 11, 2017 by LSG501

[-Temp0-]

Just now, JSharpie said:

Lmao what.

Obviously speaking about developers. If they won't make those weapons those weapons can't possibly be nerfed (kappa). So ditch that stupid mechanics altogether.

[artemisfortune]

2 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

Obviously speaking about developers. If they won't make those weapons those weapons can't possibly be nerfed (kappa). So ditch that stupid mechanics altogether.

I enjoy explosive weapons, and rarely die by my own gun.

Why get rid of a staple in shooters because some people aim at their feet/at enemies 2 feet in front of them?

[Recel]

Blowing your self up is mostly the users fault or something suddenly blocking your shot, though sometimes you blow your self up on "phantom objects" or at places where is seems like you have a clear shot, but the hitbox of the pillar or railing disagrees.
Funnily, I never read anyone complain about the later thing, only the former.

[Emulad0or]

Self-damage balances the power/aoe of a weapon with a drawback, and a fair one at that. We don't need self-damage rework, we need people to stop trying to use a grenade launcher or a bazooka like they use a shotgun.

[-Temp0-]

21 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

I enjoy explosive weapons, and rarely die by my own gun.

Why get rid of a staple in shooters because some people aim at their feet/at enemies 2 feet in front of them?

Too bad that you can't read as people above explained that no one "shoots at their feet" just as pretty much everything in WF self-damage is done in the most dumb way possible and done to make it actually un-enjoyable.

And you don't have to remove the self-damage all you have to do is to remove one hit kills - no one is even asking for it to delal 10 damage to you, it can even leave you with 2 hp as quick thinking but jsut anything but one hit kills to make those weapons more viable. It's dumb af that most of those weapons even kill Rhino with 4k armor. Most people don't want to waste revives just because moa jumped in front of you, ancient grabbed you or teammate moved in in front and for whatever the hell reason it stuck on him. It might not be a big deal in some capture or exterminate but exterely annoying in endless missions, even if its your teammates because they will either waste rather valuable revive or you will have to revive them. All because of a stupid accident because *someone* thought it's a good idea to both give those weapons one hit kill mechanics and grenades being able to stuck on things they're not supposed to be stuck on.

Edited September 11, 2017 by -Temp0-

[Brasten]

You know what would solve this?

A Shield Gate mechanic. You could get away with 1 accidental hit, maybe 2 with a Sentinel and the Guardian mod. But wouldn't really allow you shot your feet as a tactic. If the Gate had even a 30 second cooldown, it would still fix so many "I am suddenly dead for no clear reason" issues. Like having your explosive clip an ally's Sentinel because they got rag-dolled into your path by a Shield Lancer, just as you finished charging your Ogris to fire.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

1 minute ago, Emulad0or said:

Self-damage balances the power/aoe of a weapon with a drawback, and a fair one at that. We don't need self-damage rework, we need people to stop trying to use a grenade launcher or a bazooka like they use a shotgun.

Ok, I can understand most arguments for self-damage, and agree with a few, but this is the one that I cannot agree with given the current state of Warframe.

1. Enemy health is magnitudes beyond our own. Even a level 10 heavy gunner has far more eHP than 90% of our frames (Nidus, Valkyr, and Inaros being the exceptions). This means that comparing self-damage in warframe to self-damage in other games won't work.
2. Most of our launcher-type weapons deal inferior damage compared to shotguns, even when considering multiple targets. The exception here is the Lenz.
3. The effective accurate range, due to projectile arc and travel time, of most launchers is not much farther than the effective range of most shotguns. Add on to that the fact that shotguns still apply status effects at any distance and that the majority of them are hit-scan and suddenly shotguns look even better.
4. Shotguns and Launchers have similar reload and effective fire rate, with a few outliers. (Sobek's 4 second reload, for example)

So unless shotguns gain some new drawback that reduces their ease of use, or launchers gain some new level of damage beyond what shotguns have, the argument that self damage is necessary because it 'isn't a shotgun' doesn't hold water.

Also, before anyone tries the 'realistic' argument, explain this in a way that doesn't include 'space magic': If weapons deal self damage because they would IRL, why do the sonicor and staticor have no self-damage?

[Gunslinger]

13 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

why do the sonicor and staticor have no self-damage?

Soon, Tenno. Soon.

[Emulad0or]

13 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Enemy health is magnitudes beyond our own. Even a level 10 heavy gunner has far more eHP than 90% of our frames (Nidus, Valkyr, and Inaros being the exceptions). This means that comparing self-damage in warframe to self-damage in other games won't work.

Not comparing to any other game here. And it is easy to avoid self damage, just don't shoot at your own feet

14 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Most of our launcher-type weapons deal inferior damage compared to shotguns, even when considering multiple targets. The exception here is the Lenz.

Numbers? Simulacrum video comparing both? Tests againt a cluster of enemies (not that rare in a game with hordes of enemies)? 

16 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

The effective accurate range, due to projectile arc and travel time, of most launchers is not much farther than the effective range of most shotguns. Add on to that the fact that shotguns still apply status effects at any distance and that the majority of them are hit-scan and suddenly shotguns look even better.

Status at any range? True, so what? Even if we forget to take into account the shotgun pellet spread keeping you from applying the status to the target at long range, and the damage fall off, launchers are more focused on pure damage, not in status. That is like saying any status weapon is superior to crit/pure damage weapon in any given situation.
Travel time? Since when that was a problem? Launchers are AoE weapons, you don't need to be hitting headshots to kill stuff, you need to hit somewhere close (not even hit the target) to deal damage

19 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

So unless shotguns gain some new drawback that reduces their ease of use, or launchers gain some new level of damage beyond what shotguns have, the argument that self damage is necessary because it 'isn't a shotgun' doesn't hold water.

Shotguns are not meant to be used as snipers, just look at the damage fall off. Every weapon category is to be used in different situations. I used the shotgun on my previous argument because people get killed trying to use a launcher in close range. You can use a shotgun, a rifle, even your melee with quick attack. That said, just because they are not meant to be used in every situation, it doesn't mean we can't use them in less than optimal ways. But think for a second here, why would anyone use anything but launchers, if they dealt no self damage? I mean, I could just run, shooting at my feet and killing everything nearby _{basically, simulor.}

There is no reason for self-damage to be removed just because people can't read the situation and think for half a second "hmm, maybe if I shoot this enemy standing 3m away from me with a rocket, I will also be hit"

23 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

why do the sonicor and staticor have no self-damage?

This is a great question actually. We should ask for that!!! (and we should also add simulor to the list too!!!)

[Sloan441]

46 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

Self-damage balances the power/aoe of a weapon with a drawback, and a fair one at that. We don't need self-damage rework, we need people to stop trying to use a grenade launcher or a bazooka like they use a shotgun.

Pretty much this.

Once upon a time there was a little game called Phantasy Star Online. This was a collection game that appeared during the reign of Diablo 2 and was, initially, on the Dreamcast during its final swan-song days. It was a great game in many ways and very similar to Warframe.

The game wasn't without issues, however. Actually, they were legion, but the game was fun and it was (relatively) easy to overlook many. One that really stood out like a festering boil on a super-model's face was the fact that AoE weapons were entirely superior to all other weapons. In fact, so much so that no one--and I mean NO one--ever used much of anything else. Why bother in a horde shooter? Why indeed.

And that's why you have self-damage on AoE weapons in this game. If you didn't, you'd rapidly see every other other weapon type tossed on the ash heap of history...kinda like what was happening after the Tonkor and Synoid Simuwhatsit were introduced. Remember those? Remember ALL of those? That you saw constantly and almost invariably? Yeah, those.

[artemisfortune]

1 hour ago, -Temp0- said:

Too bad that you can't read as people above explained that no one "shoots at their feet" just as pretty much everything in WF self-damage is done in the most dumb way possible and done to make it actually un-enjoyable.

And you don't have to remove the self-damage all you have to do is to remove one hit kills - no one is even asking for it to delal 10 damage to you, it can even leave you with 2 hp as quick thinking but jsut anything but one hit kills to make those weapons more viable. It's dumb af that most of those weapons even kill Rhino with 4k armor. Most people don't want to waste revives just because moa jumped in front of you, ancient grabbed you or teammate moved in in front and for whatever the hell reason it stuck on him. It might not be a big deal in some capture or exterminate but exterely annoying in endless missions, even if its your teammates because they will either waste rather valuable revive or you will have to revive them. All because of a stupid accident because *someone* thought it's a good idea to both give those weapons one hit kill mechanics and grenades being able to stuck on things they're not supposed to be stuck on.

I'd tone down the attitude, but I do like that idea.

Also, I don't think it's one hit kill mechanics persay, it's just they do so much damage and there is nothing to block it. Hell, if DE ever adds shield gating that'll solve the problem entirely.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

Self-damage balances the power/aoe of a weapon with a drawback, and a fair one at that. We don't need self-damage rework, we need people to stop trying to use a grenade launcher or a bazooka like they use a shotgun.

So you want realism, thats the reason we should have self-damage?

Okay.

I agree with you but just for the sake of realism remove the shotgun damage falloff.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

the problem is people have been posting about then killing themselfs do to blast radius and self damage, when in the video they are diving on there one penta or toncor, knowing very well where the grenade is, and it takes them 2 bullet jumps to even get close to it, and yet they blame the developers

 

this isnt even about nurfs or buffs, this is about people that suck at video games, whining just because and its driving me nuts

 

i ask u right now

How do u penta urself?

 

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Sloan441 said:

Pretty much this.

Once upon a time there was a little game called Phantasy Star Online. This was a collection game that appeared during the reign of Diablo 2 and was, initially, on the Dreamcast during its final swan-song days. It was a great game in many ways and very similar to Warframe.

The game wasn't without issues, however. Actually, they were legion, but the game was fun and it was (relatively) easy to overlook many. One that really stood out like a festering boil on a super-model's face was the fact that AoE weapons were entirely superior to all other weapons. In fact, so much so that no one--and I mean NO one--ever used much of anything else. Why bother in a horde shooter? Why indeed.

And that's why you have self-damage on AoE weapons in this game. If you didn't, you'd rapidly see every other other weapon type tossed on the ash heap of history...kinda like what was happening after the Tonkor and Synoid Simuwhatsit were introduced. Remember those? Remember ALL of those? That you saw constantly and almost invariably? Yeah, those.

I doubt that we currently have any explosive weapons what could replace every other weapon choice because suddenly they dont deal self-damage.

Even before the tonkor nerf you could see large variety of weapons around you and this "was" the meta laucher.

I keep hearing that how many people seen the synsim and the tonkor ingame, i have seen no more than 20 tonkor users so far and the same amount for the synsim what was not used by a mirage. Ironically whenever i see a mirage nowadays they still only use the synsim as thats the most viable weapon for them.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

the problem is people have been posting about then killing themselfs do to blast radius and self damage, when in the video they are diving on there one penta or toncor, knowing very well where the grenade is, and it takes them 2 bullet jumps to even get close to it, and yet they blame the developers

 

this isnt even about nurfs or buffs, this is about people that suck at video games, whining just because and its driving me nuts

 

i ask u right now

How do u penta urself?

 

Hidden auto detonate timer on one of its mods and it can insta detonate when it touches certain enemies.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

4 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Hidden auto detonate timer on one of its mods and it can insta detonate when it touches certain enemies.

people are not detinating them, and are running around forgetting where they are and blowing them self up, its not the gun doing it

people are asking for hud upgrades cause of self damage....

i ask u again 

HOW THE HELL DO YOU PENTA URSELF!?

[Sloan441]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I doubt that we currently have any explosive weapons what could replace every other weapon choice because suddenly they dont deal self-damage.

Even before the tonkor nerf you could see large variety of weapons around you and this "was" the meta laucher.

I keep hearing that how many people seen the synsim and the tonkor ingame, i have seen no more than 20 tonkor users so far and the same amount for the synsim what was not used by a mirage. Ironically whenever i see a mirage nowadays they still only use the synsim as thats the most viable weapon for them.

The situation wasn't entirely analogous. There were some other influences, but what was incontrovertible was the supremacy of AoE weapons and the fact that single target weapons were a liability in most situations.

In WF, we did see the Tonkor largely displace most other weapons--AoE and otherwise. I remember the period quite well and it was a rare PuG that didn't have at least one Tonkor in it. People did favor this weapon over most others because it had hellish power and was AoE. There was no downside to using this weapon. None. It was so bad that you had people even bringing this weapon to sorties where elemental damage was resisted then becoming utterly incredulous that their favorite boomstick was doing bupkiss for damage. Duh.

The Spamulor Simtastic was a somewhat different issue in the way it works, but here you had a weapon that was AoE, had no downside in use, and supplanted most CC warframes into the bargain. Oh, and it did outrageous damage, though a goodly part of this was from the nearly omnipresent Mirage wielding it. Nevertheless, the thing was everywhere and it was a rare PuG that didn't have at least one Mirage with the damned thing running around in it.

If you have AoE weapons with equivalent damage and no downside while using it, those weapons will supplant single target weapons very quickly, and why not? There's no downside. Self-damage is a balancer to that. It might not be the only one, but it'll prevent running around willy-nilly while standing on the trigger.

 

 

[Helminth]

While I do admit most of the deaths are human error and and should not just flat Nerf self damage. Self damage is supposed to give risk vs reward and in many weapons with he way health scaling works there is not enough reward or too much risk for example the lenz has a good balance but since the Nerf to the tonkor for example you can still self damage and kill your self for minimal damage to enemies. some weapons need a rebalance to have the proper risk vs reward.