Operators are a plot hole that keeps getting worse (Spoilers if you're still invested)

[bad4youLT]

how did we won old war you ask ? we cheesed it

[el_chanis]

The selective amnesia is a real argument here. Not just a deus ex machina plot-device, but as a central part of the lore. The tenno, and even ordis, can't remember the old war, an specifically, the Orokin massacre. This is intended, so we can safely asume that we did in fact knew this kind of interaction with the transference, the void and the sentients, and we re-learned that..

[Snowbluff]

So about excal, do we know why in game it's considered effective? Do the slash procs ignore the damage gating or does it just have such a high damage per hit it doesn't matter?

[WhiteMarker]

1 hour ago, Snowbluff said:

Your post is entirely made up. My OP was empirical facts about the gameplay. Eat crow.

What you call facts is just your intepretation of things.
And you mixing story and gameplay. Never a good idea.

[Bobtm]

13 minutes ago, Snowbluff said:

So about excal, do we know why in game it's considered effective? Do the slash procs ignore the damage gating or does it just have such a high damage per hit it doesn't matter?

That falls to the specific mechanics behind Excalibur's EB, rather than an actual unique trait of it.  So to skip past the deeper mechanics, we all know Sentients can adapt to both physical and elemental damage types.  But there's a limitation, Sentients adapt based on how much damage they recieve from given sources.  A vast majority of frame abilities deal all of their damage in one singular type, but Excal by default has his EB's damage spread perfectly even across Impact, Puncture, and Slash.  So as long as a player has no physical mods on their melee of choice, only the elemental damage stands out singularly on his 4, meaning that the Sentient cannot possibly adapt to all of Excalibur's damage types properly.  Combine that with the bonus that blind has for melee, and Excal is an effective living hard-counter to them.

Any frame whose damage has an even spread, or weapon of the same nature, has this same advantage vs Sentient foes.

Fun point;  This makes the Seer with some forma'work an incredibly great option for an earlier player having an issue fighting Sentients during Second Dream.  Twin Gremlins are also a relevant option for this particular counterplay to Sentient adaptability.

[Iccotak]

Warframe powers are the void being channeled through them by the operators

[Iccotak]

You don't state facts. You state information based on lack of input and assumptions.

In short; you're pulling it out of nowhere.

Btw: Use Excalibur radial blind, it disarms their adaptable shields, and then use exalted blade to take them out.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Your asking why the frames were necessary when its really the kids that would have done most of the heavy lifting against the sentients?

That warframes existing at all is the plot twist/hole?

Edited September 17, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

6 hours ago, Snowbluff said:

So the first Sentient I foguth. "It's adapting to your attacks, hit it with something new."

So I try to use a warframe ability to reset it's shielding system. It fails. FACT: Warframe abilities are not void abilities. Warframes are just as maladapted to fighting sentients as any other weapons system.

So we get to War Within. Tenno can now fight sentients, using their powers to overcome their powerful defensive systems for the first time ever- Wait that can't be the case. We get the transference ability as a part of growing up (the ill conceived theme of WW), so we didn't have them before.

How did we ever matter at all during the sentient war? It's a fact Sentients aren't anymore affected by Warframe abilities than a warframe's entirely ordinary guns and swords.

Not even my Void (riven) modified weapons are more effective.

Then we have Eidolons which are entirely indestructible outside of operator abilities. I guess the Eidolons single-handedly destroyed the orokin. *shrugs*

 

Ok so this is a fairly decent point.

Yes the tenno did aquire their void energy powers in the beginning from the void-jump accident (that's how margulis got burnt and blinded) but the tenno couldn't control these powers and so they were put in transference pods, allowing them to use surrogates that could withstand the void energy.

However the warfames dont use void energy directly, so they didnt have access to the resistance stripping effects we had now... UNLESS the orokin had developed void weapons (that we have yet to see) that the warframes could carry into battle OR the versatile nature of a 4-man squad meant that the tenno could have access to multiple different damage types, thereby circumventing the issue of the resistances... but that poses the problem that sentients share resistances.

[Pavelord]

I think it is not being mentioned that the tenno/warframes are great warriors of gun and blade, their physical prowess is surely higher than other humans and they posses the strenght  of the four races: the resilient infested flesh, armor like the grineer, shields like the corpus and a analogous adaptative power similar to the sentients with the mods and exilus adapter. In essence they are formidable soldiers far beyond the dax soldiers and that is without counting their "resurrection ability".

Should also remember Mirage quest, she is mention to kill the sentients with her hands not using void powers, so void powers are great but are not the counter to sentients that OP is pretending them to be, the adaptability of the sentients is a great advantage but it can probably be counter with great numbers, we know the old war was  terribly cruel that humanity was at risk of disappearing, having the   warframes was a strong hand but they did not plow through the sentients. And by the looks of the lore so far the sentients may have fake their loss.

I agree that Warframe powers are not Void powers, the warframes are proxies made to contain  them, void energy is use to fuel them, to operate this reality bending abilities, the orokin feared the void it makes sense that they would not use those powers directly. Melee channeling is the only warframe ability that seems to use void power directly.

Mixing gameplay features with lore can makes things a little bit hard to interpret but so far  I don´t really think we have a plothole.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

22 minutes ago, Pavelord said:

I think it is not being mentioned that the tenno/warframes are great warriors of gun and blade, their physical prowess is surely higher than other humans and they posses the strenght  of the four races: the resilient infested flesh, armor like the grineer, shields like the corpus and a analogous adaptative power similar to the sentients with the mods and exilus adapter. In essence they are formidable soldiers far beyond the dax soldiers and that is without counting their "resurrection ability".

Should also remember Mirage quest, she is mention to kill the sentients with her hands not using void powers, so void powers are great but are not the counter to sentients that OP is pretending them to be, the adaptability of the sentients is a great advantage but it can probably be counter with great numbers, we know the old war was  terribly cruel that humanity was at risk of disappearing, having the   warframes was a strong hand but they did not plow through the sentients. And by the looks of the lore so far the sentients may have fake their loss.

I agree that Warframe powers are not Void powers, the warframes are proxies made to contain  them, void energy is use to fuel them, to operate this reality bending abilities, the orokin feared the void it makes sense that they would not use those powers directly. Melee channeling is the only warframe ability that seems to use void power directly.

Mixing gameplay features with lore can makes things a little bit hard to interpret but so far  I don´t really think we have a plothole.

and i suppose the lore states that the sentients would "turn our weapons against us" something they cant do with warframes controlled by tenno. 

[DreamsmithJane]

11 hours ago, Snowbluff said:

BUt why couldn't we remember? Was the stress of void jump incident too much ? Then we were in a coma during the sentient, and didn't have access to our operator powers. AFACT, Marguilis was killed early in the warframe project anyway, and she put us in the Second Dream. It's a plot hole.

Teshin made that clear during TWW. Margulis cut us off from the void corruption in our minds, which protected us from the "man in the wall" (to use Rell's term), but also cut us off from our memories in the process. Also, Margulis didn't put us in the Second Dream. The Lotus did that. It was the "Second Dream" precisely because what Margulis did was the first. So it was like this:

• Sentients attacked, apparently taking the long way back to avoid the perils of the Void.
• The Zariman children were weaponized as "Tenno", fought back, seemingly won using both warframes and direct void powers. Remember, the focus schools already existed, and we were already trained in them when we woke up. But I digress. Sentients appeared to be driven out of the origin system.
• The war apparently being over, Orokin wanted to tie up loose ends by killing the "dangerous" Tenno, but Margulis stopped them, tried to cure us instead. Enter the first "dream", after the "Old War". This is when we lost the ability to access our Void powers without a conduit, hence our reliance on Transference tech (based on Orokin Continuity tech) and warframes.
• Margulis was killed for her defiance, but the Tenno were kept alive...?*
• Absent another way to attack, Hunhow and Natah came back through the rail, accepting the fact that the Void would render them unable to adapt or replicate. Natah became the Lotus, infiltrated Orokin society, became responsible for the Tenno, and used them to kill Orokin rulers. Sentients thus won the war at the moment the Orokin were celebrating their own supposed victory. This didn't sit well with the Stalker, and he holds Tenno responsible. Not that we remember, since we were in an induced coma at the time, and were basically used.
• Desiring children of her own and no longer able to replicate, Lotus went rogue, abandoning her secondary objective of finishing off the Tenno, and adopting us instead. Knowing the others would not let it go, she hid the Tenno in the only place she knew they would not look: since we were dreaming on the moon, she moved the entire moon into the Void. This was the "Second Dream".
• We stayed in this state for who knows how long, until Grineer started digging up our warframes so their Orokin rulers could trace our transference and steal our bodies. We experienced this first hand when confronting the Twin Queens in The War Within. Teshin finally helped us remove the blocks in our minds, giving us the power to resist Continuity, but also exposing us once again to "the power and the misery of the Void". Now, what happened to Rell could happen to any of us. Time will tell if we remember what really happened in the Old War, as it's all a bit hazy right now.

* What's not clear is why Margulis was killed, but the Tenno were kept alive. This would make a lot more sense if Natah had murdered Margulis and taken her place. Unfortunately, the circumstances surrounding Margulis' demise and Natah's transformation into the Lotus are still not understood. It would certainly explain Lotus being cagey about it, even beyond her identity as a Sentient, but we just don't know.

As for Tenno beating Sentients with Void powers, and then forgetting, that's explained.

[Cortanis]

Something to keep in mind with all of this. The Orokin deployed the Tenno as a military. Military has ranks and specialists. This is also where they're moving with in the Plains update. Their are also quite a lot of Tenno as well. We have absolutely no information what our specific rolls and training were in regards to the war with the Sentients or even a state of our training prior to the second dream.

Jumping to the War Within and the cave found there. Things to look at in regards to this location are that it's a hard prior construction. Carving it into the cave system and sectioning it off with specific feat requirements doesn't appear to be just for show. I highly suspect that it's a kind of training ground and the body at the entrance was little more than someone who failed the obstacle course. The Orokin were openly brutal monsters and I highly doubt that they would have considered mercy on tools that were not up to snuff.

Another point of interest that seems to be missing in all of this is the military structure of the Tenno under the Orokin as well. This also speaks to the point of our possible lack of rank and training. For what is supposed to be space ninjas, they sure wouldn't just leave open access to just anyone to the military aspect of the Tenno or Orokin. I highly suspect that this is something yet to ether be explained or found as we haven't really found any traces of Orokin armies beyond the def systems for the tower. Even that is little more than brain washing and forced conscription. From the lore for the Ancient Healers, we do in fact KNOW that the Orokin maintained a military and in a variety of units and uses. So where are they? Where are the remanents of this military? No hangars, no bunkers, and no real equipment present or found. That is a HUGE lack of information to base our operators and status around. It's more likely that we didn't have ether rank or training to be considered privy to that information.

For reference, archived Ancient Healer lore thread can be found here.

[VideoJack]

19 hours ago, Snowbluff said:

Yeah, a new thing they could do. My operators was weak and feeble and had no ability to combat enemies before then. Ergo, he didn't have these powers ever before.

Leave the Perrin Sequence out of this, he doesn't need powers. He has money.

[DrBorris]

20 hours ago, Snowbluff said:

So the first Sentient I foguth. "It's adapting to your attacks, hit it with something new."

So I try to use a warframe ability to reset it's shielding system. It fails. FACT: Warframe abilities are not void abilities. Warframes are just as maladapted to fighting sentients as any other weapons system.

So we get to War Within. Tenno can now fight sentients, using their powers to overcome their powerful defensive systems for the first time ever- Wait that can't be the case. We get the transference ability as a part of growing up (the ill conceived theme of WW), so we didn't have them before.

How did we ever matter at all during the sentient war? It's a fact Sentients aren't anymore affected by Warframe abilities than a warframe's entirely ordinary guns and swords.

Not even my Void (riven) modified weapons are more effective.

Then we have Eidolons which are entirely indestructible outside of operator abilities. I guess the Eidolons single-handedly destroyed the orokin. *shrugs*

• Yes, Warframe abilities are not "void" abilities. Warframe channel void energy into different PHYSICAL (this is important) elemental and physical aspects. A Warframe is a lens for void energy, raw-unstable power goes in, useful stuff comes out. No Warframe actually pumps out "void" damage, the closest thing we have to that is Limbo and his rift plane. 
• I am not sure you know what the Sentients weakness are... Yes, Sentients are highly susceptible to void magic, yes, but they are also susceptible to physical attacks. THIS is why the Orokin used the Warframes, Warframes are masters of PHYSICAL attacks, being able to wield massive weapons and insane strength. There is some Grineer Imprint lore that talks about this. Before Warframes the Orokin reliesd on technology. 
• Rivens aren't "void", Rivens are the epitome of mod(ification)s.
• You may have a slight point here, but we were "awake" during the Old War. How else would we have formed the Tenno Schools? 

 

Also... everything the guy above me said. 

 

20 hours ago, CerebrateJoe said:

This is interesting.  I've noticed that some powers, like Excalibur's Exalted Blade seem to completely bypass sentient defences, while others don't.  

It is not that Excalibro bypasses Sentient Defenses, it is that his damage is evenly split Impact/Puncture/Slash. And because Sentients can only gain a resistance to one damage type at a time, Excal loses effectiveness against Sentients much slower than less evenly split weapons. Valkyr's Hysteria is the same way as EB and thus is also great at melting Sentients (but Excal has the advantage of range). 

[TaylorsContraction]

The old war ended when the tenno massacred the orokin and the sentients went to sleep soon after as they felt that their job was done. We don't know what motivated the sentients to attack but imo it was too free the origin system of orokin control. I don't think at the time of the war they held grudges versus grineer and corpus, they knew they were puppets, just like the sentients once were.

Lotus was the spy who infiltrated tenno command and was supposed to kill them in their transference pods before going to sleep herself. Tenno after all are the last orokin. Because the orokin leadership themselves wanted our bodies with their cool abilities, tenno have leadership genes that give us control over solar rails among other orokin tech. But lotus recognised that we too were victims of the orokin and chose to leave us in peace, putting us to slumber with the sentients.

She herself remained awake and only bothered to wake us because in the ending conflict between grineer and corpus they started destroying Warframes. To her (and us), warframes were just as important as tenno and we don't yet know what the full relationship is between tenno and Warframe. Since Warframes are biological in a way they too are victims of the orokin, victims in the sense that they were created to serve a particular function. A warframe never gets to enjoy life its purpose is war.

There are many gaps in what happened after the massacre and when everyone was put to sleep. I'm not sure there is any concrete lore available that describes that time period.

[Snowbluff]

On 9/17/2017 at 3:33 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Your asking why the frames were necessary when its really the kids that would have done most of the heavy lifting against the sentients?

That warframes existing at all is the plot twist/hole?

*spits out drink*
Well, I guess that's it for the game. Shut it down.

 

Also I would like to point out that our school powers don't count as void powers, either...

[Volinus7]

Accretion is even toxic to the lore lol, can't wait for more major plot holes like this, GJ OP.

[-YoRHa-]

The Orokin most likely used the Cascade Bomb from the Once Awake quest on Sentients that were completely immune to anything but Void energy. The bomb literally uses Void energy to purge all life in the area. The Warframes were most likely used because they are agile, powerful, have a wide array of powers, and used multiple weapons with ease in combat to circumvent the adaptation as best they can.

[Otaiken]

I always though it was the sheer range of damage types that was the advantage Warframes had. For a normal soldier once the sentient develops resistance to their rifle that's pretty much it. Though they could always use different ammunition.

Compare that to Warframes who can use abilities, mods, damage types and even melee weapons in addition to being significantly tougher to kill.

That said the game has alwas been about mechanics first and lore second. DE simply throws stuff they thing is cool in the game and lore is there to somehow explain it and pull it all together so plotholes are inevitable. One of the biggest question since the beginning of WF was who or what exactly are frames. Are they characters or are they player's avatar in the game? Operators resolved this question but a lot of the ambiguity in the old lore remains.

Edited September 21, 2017 by LocoWithGun

[Sloan441]

On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 7:33 AM, VideoJack said:

Leave the Perrin Sequence out of this, he doesn't need powers. He has money.

Not correct. What the Perrin Sequence has is a vision or an agenda. They use money to achieve that. It's not an end in itself--it's a potential to create those ends. This is what seperates them from the Corpus.

[VoxGray]

On 9/17/2017 at 7:30 PM, DeckChairVonBananaCamel said:

and i suppose the lore states that the sentients would "turn our weapons against us" something they cant do with warframes controlled by tenno. 

The Sentient could turn Orokin weapons against them, I.E. their turrets, robotics and the like. The highly advanced, inorganic technology they wielded before they created the Technocyte. Warframes, being largely organic, are immune to Sentient control, and their weapons being powered by Void energy (which is poison to the Sentient) makes them immune as well. For all their supposed inconsistencies, DE has actually done very well with tying the lore together in Warframe.

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

22 minutes ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

The Sentient could turn Orokin weapons against them, I.E. their turrets, robotics and the like. The highly advanced, inorganic technology they wielded before they created the Technocyte. Warframes, being largely organic, are immune to Sentient control, and their weapons being powered by Void energy (which is poison to the Sentient) makes them immune as well. For all their supposed inconsistencies, DE has actually done very well with tying the lore together in Warframe.

that and the warframes would be equipped with weapons built using ancient technology (so that they were harder for the sentients to assimilate, i presume)

[BlackCoMerc]

It's also a hole in the internal consistency of the world building:

Slash proc: you're bleeding. What? The frame? Who cares? It's a robot. What's there to bleed out?

They've cut off life support: remote controlled robot. Again - Who cares?

Toxic Spores: see above.

But I agree, OP. Who fought the Orokin again? I he same frames that turn to mushy ragdolls at the site of a 90lb Scorpion with a rope? The ones whose powers are utterly invalidated by a Corpus with a backpack? The ones that cannot even damage a Sentient?

[VoxGray]

23 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

-snip-

Warframes aren't robots. They're golems of Infested flesh, just as alive as you and I. Hence why they bleed, and why toxins affect them.

As to the issue of the Old War, the Tenno were much more competent in the control of their Void energies back then, and alternated attacks on the Sentient between their Warframes and their own Void powers (much like a competent post-WW player does). And with a properly modded Frame and weapon, an individual Sentient doesn't stand much chance against you. If it's so easy to slaughter Sentient at our current level of power, imagine how much easier it would've been in the past, when the Tenno were even stronger.

Edited September 21, 2017 by EmissaryOfInfinity