Warframe Units have too much CC

[Pixelshady]

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by pixelshady

[Weidro]

without even watching the video i can tell you that there are mods against everything

some against slow
some against stagger
some against knockdown
and so on and so on

if you have a problem with the enemy cc just mod accordingly
another option would be to dodge or block

no reason to complain or even rant

[Pixelshady]

not my video, just wanted to see what other people think

[[DE]Grzegorz]

7 minutes ago, Weidro said:

without even watching the video i can tell you that there are mods against everything

some against slow
some against stagger
some against knockdown
and so on and so on

if you have a problem with the enemy cc just mod accordingly
another option would be to dodge or block

no reason to complain or even rant

You need to keep in mind that there's a plethora of mods that are borderline mandatory for given build or in general so there isn't always space for QoL mods (most of which are invalidated by abilities anyhow).

Certain enemy units too are very poorly designed, like Ancients with their hooks that have hardly any tell, can attack you from off-screen as well as they take nearly no time to actually knock you down for quite a lengthy period of time.

Quite frankly I'd like to see at least an experiment with enemies designed to allow skilled players to dodge all of their attacks using the most rudimentary setups, see old arena shooters like DOOM which essentially boil down to dancing around the enemies. See Corpus but given their current implementation, I wouldn't be surprised if their bullets could curve mid-air if the game decided that given shot has to hit you.

There also are untelegraphed attacks, misaligned effects and knockdowns that cannot be interrupted (Shockwave Moas would still create a shockwave even if you knocked them down at the very beginning of the stomp and Bursas give me turbocosmicaids with their shockwave spam to this day).

Edited October 12, 2017 by JuicyButthurt

[Weidro]

3 minutes ago, JuicyButthurt said:

Quite frankly I'd like to see at least an experiment with enemies designed to allow skilled players to dodge all of their attacks

you can do that in warframe right now

in the coding is a mechanic that reduces enemy accuracy the faster you move
combine that with some blocking or shoot them in the face before they do
it takes a bit practice but you can play missions without ever getting hit

[[DE]Grzegorz]

Just now, Weidro said:

you can do that in warframe right now

in the coding is a mechanic that reduces enemy accuracy the faster you move
combine that with some blocking or shoot them in the face before they do
it takes a bit practice but you can play missions without ever getting hit

There's a fundamental difference between randomly deciding that x in y shots will (not) hit the player no matter what and enemies actually trying to hit the player every time BUT their projectiles taking time to arrive where the player is or either is going, thus giving an observant player a short while dodge the attack.

Current implementation in Warframe is completely RNG based, the latter one is reliant completely on player skills.

[CelsiusPrime]

2 minutes ago, Weidro said:

you can do that in warframe right now

in the coding is a mechanic that reduces enemy accuracy the faster you move
combine that with some blocking or shoot them in the face before they do
it takes a bit practice but you can play missions without ever getting hit

Don't forget about the part where rolling, back handsprings, side dodging and all the other parkour moves reduces damage by I think 90%, I'll have to double check.

 

and also, I can dodge about 60-70% of hooks, from enemies in my field of view. I usually kill them before it reaches me, dodge left or right, or perform an action with invincible frames (i.e. if you are hooked when casting avalanche nothing happens because the animation for avalanche prevents you from being dragged away)

[Weidro]

didn't want to butthurt you @JuicyButthurt

as i said above if that is to much RNG and to much skill for you there is always the option to mod accordingly
yes it takes mod slots but that is the decision you have to make
do you need stretch or rather sure footed ? decide if you want intensify or Pain Threshold
its really up to you the mechanics are there

 

5 minutes ago, CelsiusPrime said:

Don't forget about the part where rolling, back handsprings, side dodging and all the other parkour moves reduces damage by I think 90%, I'll have to double check.

 

and also, I can dodge about 60-70% of hooks, from enemies in my field of view. I usually kill them before it reaches me, dodge left or right, or perform an action with invincible frames (i.e. if you are hooked when casting avalanche nothing happens because the animation for avalanche prevents you from being dragged away)

thanks for proofing my point
we do have enough mechanics to deal with the given enemies
there is no need to change anything
just use whats there and trust me there is more than "Rhino is only solution!!!11!!one!!eleven"

[aavvdkdk]

Only CC I have problems with is the Commander teleport (also happens on Vodyanoi). The teleporting is fine, but the animation where your frame looks around like an idiot is so annoying. IF the teleport had a warning/ could be avoided it would be fine. This has been in the game for far too long unchanged. The only thing that has changed is that I almost never see commanders now, which is sad because the idea of Grineer commanders is pretty cool.  

[[DE]Grzegorz]

26 minutes ago, Weidro said:

as i said above if that is to much RNG and to much skill for you there is always the option to mod accordingly
yes it takes mod slots but that is the decision you have to make
do you need stretch or rather sure footed ? decide if you want intensify or Pain Threshold
its really up to you the mechanics are there

These bandaid mods are essentially terrible choice because why would you want to have slightly quicker recovery from knockdowns if you technically can have the option to prevent 100% of knockdowns by focusing on abilities instead? Another issue is... good luck compensating for randomness. There's no skill involved in an enemy that has to hit you even if you are behind 50 metres of a brick wall because the game decided so. I've personally witnessed cases of being hooked through ceilings after wormholing because the game decided that ancient had 100% chance to hit me, I've seen hooks pass right through me and miss because the game decided so, this mechanic is fundamentally broken.

And it all gets even worse when playing online due to the lag.

26 minutes ago, Weidro said:

thanks for proofing my point
we do have enough mechanics to deal with the given enemies
there is no need to change anything
just use whats there and trust me there is more than "Rhino is only solution!!!11!!one!!eleven"

We have plenty of bandaids to address the issues of poorly designed content, that's is indeed a solution, but a shoddy one.

Edited October 12, 2017 by JuicyButthurt

[Volinus7]

Combat model in Warframe is archaic and comparable to those old school isometric rpg, which is not really "action" when compared to games with proper dodging mechanics or QTE.

Even the latest glass frame abilities were designed to be 2 dimensional ring shape which enemies can't jump out due to broken aggro mechanics. 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by Volinus7

[EvilChaosKnight]

5 hours ago, Weidro said:

you can do that in warframe right now

in the coding is a mechanic that reduces enemy accuracy the faster you move

So basically RNG. We already got RNG for status, RNG for crits, RNG for multishot, RNG for ammo/energy drops, RNG for knockdown resistance chance, RNG for what enemies would come, RNG for the number of enemies, RNG for their behavior (grenade tosses, infested ranged attacks, etc), RNG for eximi and their type... You know, Warframe could really strip some of that RNG. Just sayin'

I honestly fully support the notion of going towards arena-shooter-style like Doom or Unreal when dealing with enemies. I want to be able to dodge enemy shots because my movement pattern tricked the enemy into missing. Not because my enemy had their virtual crosshair glued to me 24/7 but suffered an XCom moment which may or may not happen.

This is why I also fully support getting the rid of ALL non laser beam hitscan from the game. I am sure Warframe can fully support 300-600 m/s projectiles for normal bullets. That in turn would give players the ability to actually dodge enemy shots if they stay on the move rather than relying on, well, RNG to do that for them.

[Weidro]

12 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

You know, Warframe could really strip some of that RNG. Just sayin'

you do realize that RNG is the basis for a grind game ?
and you do realize that we have mods to get some of these RNG things to 100%chance which is no RNG anymore at that point

Just sayin'

[Pixelshady]

28 minutes ago, Weidro said:

you do realize that RNG is the basis for a grind game ?
and you do realize that we have mods to get some of these RNG things to 100%chance which is no RNG anymore at that point

Just sayin'

Rng is the basis for the drops in the game but not the combat mechanics 

[BlackCoMerc]

6 hours ago, JuicyButthurt said:

These bandaid mods are essentially terrible choice because why would you want to have slightly quicker recovery from knockdowns if you technically can have the option to prevent 100% of knockdowns by focusing on abilities instead? Another issue is... good luck compensating for randomness. There's no skill involved in an enemy that has to hit you even if you are behind 50 metres of a brick wall because the game decided so. I've personally witnessed cases of being hooked through ceilings after wormholing because the game decided that ancient had 100% chance to hit me, I've seen hooks pass right through me and miss because the game decided so, this mechanic is fundamentally broken.

And it all gets even worse when playing online due to the lag.

We have plenty of bandaids to address the issues of poorly designed content, that's is indeed a solution, but a shoddy one.

Unavoidable teleports.

Clipping, 180 - 360° aim bot grappling hooks.

Intentional screen shake and fuzz

Knockdown and stagger spam from even grunt level enemies.

Draining Auras.

Said it before: if you cannot leave player input intact and offer challenge at the same time, then your game is broken. Period. You don't need bandaid mods, you need a balance pass on all content.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 hour ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

So basically RNG. We already got RNG for status, RNG for crits, RNG for multishot, RNG for ammo/energy drops, RNG for knockdown resistance chance, RNG for what enemies would come, RNG for the number of enemies, RNG for their behavior (grenade tosses, infested ranged attacks, etc), RNG for eximi and their type... You know, Warframe could really strip some of that RNG. Just sayin'

I honestly fully support the notion of going towards arena-shooter-style like Doom or Unreal when dealing with enemies. I want to be able to dodge enemy shots because my movement pattern tricked the enemy into missing. Not because my enemy had their virtual crosshair glued to me 24/7 but suffered an XCom moment which may or may not happen.

This is why I also fully support getting the rid of ALL non laser beam hitscan from the game. I am sure Warframe can fully support 300-600 m/s projectiles for normal bullets. That in turn would give players the ability to actually dodge enemy shots if they stay on the move rather than relying on, well, RNG to do that for them.

I think hitscan is fine for player weapons. It allows less skilled shooter players to still have fun and contribute. 

But hordes of enemies with hitscan weapons is...not ok. Hordes with damage proccing hitscan is AWFUL design.

[Lost_Cartographer]

6 hours ago, JuicyButthurt said:

These bandaid mods are essentially terrible choice because why would you want to have slightly quicker recovery from knockdowns if you technically can have the option to prevent 100% of knockdowns by focusing on abilities instead? Another issue is... good luck compensating for randomness. There's no skill involved in an enemy that has to hit you even if you are behind 50 metres of a brick wall because the game decided so. I've personally witnessed cases of being hooked through ceilings after wormholing because the game decided that ancient had 100% chance to hit me, I've seen hooks pass right through me and miss because the game decided so, this mechanic is fundamentally broken.

And it all gets even worse when playing online due to the lag.

We have plenty of bandaids to address the issues of poorly designed content, that's is indeed a solution, but a shoddy one.

Then stick to frames with anti-CC. Not every frame will, and it defeats the point of a modding system if the only concern is greater power. We have defense mods exactly to deal with knock downs and slows, etc. Use them or find a way to live without them.

[Rakosta_Kai]

YMMV...

Aside from Teleports from Commanders and Leech auras I don't typically experience most of the things being mentioned...Regardless of the frame I am on.

I flip, dodge, roll, crouch, hide behind cover and go after the worst offenders of all this stuff first typically.

Problems arise when it's those leeching eximus units that like to amble on the edges and hide until you've gotten out of their effect range and the mobs that will all but chaincast their area attacks like tar or those freaky bouncing osprey mines (That's a minelayer ability that Vauban should have gotten imo). 

To balance the stuff that video complains about, Frames enjoy no diminishing returns on their own considerable CC and almost no cooldown timers.

No idea exists in a vacuum and has to be taken as a whole...Enemy faction's abilities are annoying because player abilities make them annoyingly hard to KO.

[Carnage2K4]

EH... Sounds like a whole bunch of crying.

[AzureTerra]

For all the CC that Units do there is plenty of CC that Warframes can do right back.

[phoenix1992]

Ok, I will do this in two parts.

First before I watch the video :
1. There are multiple ways to deal with CC spamming units in the game. Warframe abilities, mods, map awarness or... you know just using Melee block.
2. For all the salt I have seen considering the CC enemies (and special units), It has never effected me as much. I have all currently available frames, and majority of the arsenal - if I am to turn into roadkill, it is not CC that gets me. It is lack of preparation or acting reckless.

Second part : 
So. Much. Bloody. Salt.

"Enemies have mid range" - Well DUH. 
"Infested are nasty in close range and drop stuff" -  WELL DUH.
"Corpus are.." - Ok I am done here.

Oh poor MCGamerCZ, uses Animal Instinct, does not look up enemies and where they spawn. Cries about he does not want to use CC, but glances over weapon types and how they combat enemy units all together.  Fun is one thing, refusing to use the full extend of your abilities because "it ain't fun" is a BS claim.

[BornWithTeeth]

Hah. When I saw this thread title, I thought the complaint was that Warframes have too easy a time using cheesy CC to shut down masses of enemy units, and I was like ‘Yep, too right.’

 

Honest.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Hah. When I saw this thread title, I thought the complaint was that Warframes have too easy a time using cheesy CC to shut down masses of enemy units, and I was like ‘Yep, too right.’

 

Honest.

Hush you.
6 targets per second. But you melt the map.

[BornWithTeeth]

1d6 Investigators per roooooouuuuunnnnnd.

[o.0-]

I too had figured this was gonna be about Warframe abilities, now I don't wanna bother with watching the video in the OP afterall.

If the issue is with 'cheese', well then it will have to be moved around some, for both players and enemies.