Do people actually like the Operator?

[SnuggleBuckets]

1 minute ago, Smilomaniac said:

Tenno were not individuals, they were soldiers raised as a unit for combat with militaristic doctrine and were taught the value of morale. I don't believe they were "space ninjas" to begin with, they were front line combatants that lead normal humans into battles. While all soldiers eventually ponder philosophy and question their actions, they will most often set this line of reasoning aside to take responsibility and do what's necessary to survive.

That's the difference between someone out in the field and someone in an armchair, capable of logging out and distancing themselves from the immediate situation.

Before someone says that the Tenno could effectively do the same, it would not be unreasonable to assume that they weren't able or allowed to simply take a break from "the game" of playing the role of a warframe. I would go so far as to say that they would refuse to, out of a sense of duty (born out of indoctrination and peer pressure to excel).

The world view of a Tenno seems pretty damn spot on to me and your failure to connect with that perspective is not a result of poor writing as much as your inability.
Understand that I don't think you're wrong, your perspective is valid as well, but I don't think it makes for a convincing argument at all.

That being said, while I'm a fan of the operator story and the creativity of it, I think the mechanical concept of running around as a child is ludicrous and an abrupt change of pace that ruins the gameplay.

*Shudders*
Well, that sure is creepy to read. Just replace tenno with child soldier, indoctrinated by a warlord in Africa for their horrendous religious cause, and you too should be able to see how it shouldn't be desirable to anyone to connect and sympathise with such a mentality.
Don't get me wrong, you could view the tenno as victims, indeed I read your comment as a clinical description on what these poor children have been forced to become, but this is a videogame, and hardly on the same writing/direction level as a game like Spec Ops: The Line, Warframe is mainly sold as a fun awesome space action hack and slash. How, with this perspective, should we now "enjoy" our little escapist powerfantasy and keep fuelling the nightmare of our poor brainwashed victims in the game? Kind of a huge marketing disaster for a free2play game: "Here, buy more weapons of ethnic cleansing to keep the children in line, fighting instead of healing and learning to become normal humans ever again! Just keep them living in the same nightmare where they think they're fighting for the same causes they were manipulated into, platinum on sale now!"

[Meneliki]

On 10/25/2017 at 12:57 PM, AlphaPHENIX said:

...and you know, now that the viabilty of the Vazarin school doesn't even exist.

As a pure Vazarin player, I'd disagree there. It's very powerful and I'm finding it pretty fun. I also find it alot better than it was before. (just because im not perma-invis or have unlimited energy doesn't mean vaz is crap)

Also, yes I like the operator. I wasn't too excited about Focus 1.0, could take the system or leave it. I'm pretty pumped about how the new system works. I love what the operator does to the pace of the battles. Everything is so fast paced and high-apm now(at least that's how I play it). Combat is even more engaging, and it lets me do things like take on Teralysts alone. 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Meneliki

[AlphaPHENIX]

5 minutes ago, Meneliki said:

As a pure Vazarin player, I'd disagree there. It's very powerful and I'm finding it pretty fun. I also find it alot better than it was before. (just because im not perma-invis or have unlimited energy doesn't mean vaz is crap)

Also, yes I like the operator. I wasn't too excited about Focus 1.0, could take the system or leave it. I'm pretty pumped about how the new system works. I love what the operator does to the pace of the battles. Everything is so fast paced and high-apm now(at least that's how I play it). Combat is even more engaging, and it lets me do things like take on Teralysts alone. 

Wait, did I read that right? 

6 minutes ago, Meneliki said:

As a pure Vazarin player

Ok then, Vazarin main vs Vazarin main. Fight m- nope, no no no...

7 minutes ago, Meneliki said:

(just because im not perma-invis or have unlimited energy doesn't mean vaz is crap)

You just lost...those weren't even in Vazarin...and now they are gone too.

11 minutes ago, Meneliki said:

Also, yes I like the operator. I wasn't too excited about Focus 1.0, could take the system or leave it. I'm pretty pumped about how the new system works. I love what the operator does to the pace of the battles. Everything is so fast paced and high-apm now(at least that's how I play it). Combat is even more engaging, and it lets me do things like take on Teralysts alone. 

Well good for you...but you missed the entire point of my comment. I wasn't talking about Vazarin's viability in general (which compared to the rest, it's arguably worse then the former least used school known as Unairu), I was talking about Vazarin's viabilty as what it was ment to be...the support type focus school.

In case you haven't noticed, let me feel you in...YOU CAN'T EVEN HEAL OBJECTIVES ANYMORE!! Well there goes half of it's support viability, let us see the rest...oh...the only things kept from the old Vazarin are Instant Revives and Affinity Range Increase...and the healling aspect has been reduced from an AoE Circle to a Straight Line...do I need to continue?

Frankly, we are back at the point of ''If you are on healling duty and not playing Trinity then you are doing it wrong!''. Do you like that? Because I preffered being able to use any frame and still heal my allies (without Team Health Retores).

Yes, with the old system, Vazarin used to be a last resort kind of heal (if you were like me and used all the nodes, because all of them were usefull)...and it was better that way.

PS: I am going to remain a Vazarin main and I fully support you to do the same...but I can't just blindly ignore things such as ''Guardian'' Shell being completely useless.

[TARINunit9]

On 10/25/2017 at 9:51 AM, N2-Power said:

The reason I didn't play - and I thought I would never return - was that I was dissatisfied with the way the lore was going after the Second Dream, i.e. with the whole Operator business. 

I was on much the same track at first. Not only are we introducing generic teenagers, but we're also retconning Stalker?

Thankfully story since then hasn't focused exclusively on the Zariman kids, it's actually been about the NPCs. Like the Myconans and the ancient Orokin. Plus they introduced Helminth -- who calls the Warframes his true "masters" and your whiny Zariman kid a "little demon" -- and they fixed Stalker's lore again by making it clear non-Tenno can Transfer too

[Smilomaniac]

1 hour ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

*Shudders*
Well, that sure is creepy to read. Just replace tenno with child soldier, indoctrinated by a warlord in Africa for their horrendous religious cause, and you too should be able to see how it shouldn't be desirable to anyone to connect and sympathise with such a mentality.
Don't get me wrong, you could view the tenno as victims, indeed I read your comment as a clinical description on what these poor children have been forced to become, but this is a videogame, and hardly on the same writing/direction level as a game like Spec Ops: The Line, Warframe is mainly sold as a fun awesome space action hack and slash. How, with this perspective, should we now "enjoy" our little escapist powerfantasy and keep fuelling the nightmare of our poor brainwashed victims in the game? Kind of a huge marketing disaster for a free2play game: "Here, buy more weapons of ethnic cleansing to keep the children in line, fighting instead of healing and learning to become normal humans ever again! Just keep them living in the same nightmare where they think they're fighting for the same causes they were manipulated into, platinum on sale now!"

Right, I get what you're saying, but you're victimizing the Tenno beyond reasonable context and available information.

First off, they're not the same as child soldiers in Africa, those kids are torn out of the arms of their parents and siblings and are told that their family will be killed, if not by the "enemy", then by the army they're fighting in, if they don't perform.

The Tenno likely saw themselves as rescued by the Orokin and were turned into literally gilded warriors worthy of massive parades and some measure of self governance (evidenced by some of the Syandana descriptions). They weren't forced to fight humans, but were instead destined to save humanity from an inhuman and alien force.
Now, did they go through grueling training and experimentation? Sure, but for all they knew, the Orokin were helping and the person most involved with them (Margulis) was indeed sympathetic and genuinly interested in saving them. Obviously the Orokin were using them for their own gain, but that's not necessarily how the Tenno saw it, which is the important part here.

Calling them indoctrinated child soldiers, though an apt description, doesn't do the story or context justice. Tenno are proud warriors with great skill and tactical training that compete with one another, they value honor and have five distinct schools of philosophy and approach to life, as well as combat. They have rituals, they dance, they value worthy opponents and foster bonds with loyal companions.

Victimizing them the way you did removes all of that context and removes their agency in revisionist history, which is not only a disservice, but could be interpreted as an insult, much like how a politician uses veterans or servicemen for his or her own gain. I'm not saying I'm insulted on behalf of imaginary characters, I'm merely pointing out how misinterpreting someone as a mere victim, no matter how well intentioned, can be detrimental to rational understanding.

I'm one of those people here on the forums that wants the Orokin to return and allow you to join them. It's absolutely the wrong thing to do morally, but it makes perfect sense for these veteran warriors to want to return to the old ways of hierarchy, glory and mass adoration by the population, rather than the silly bounty hunters they're turning into.
The public barely respects you and your prowess. You are treated like a common mercenary and are expected to do your duty simply because you can and they can't. Merchants see you as the new suckers that they can appeal to and none of them pay tribute in any way, nor offer any sort of reverence or adulation that you quite frankly deserve.

I am ready to reform this system along with my worthy siblings, to subjugate any Tenno would oppose me and unite the people to restore our empire to glory, to defeat the degenerate queens and their pathetic grineer, and to take over the Corpus and set them to work for the greater good. I am willing to do all the wrong things for the right reason and this time there will be no Tenno rebellion, for the Orokin will be our puppets.
And when we sit on golden thrones in golden towers far above the populace, we will expand outwars to the galaxy and start a true empire, as we were meant to.

How's that for a power fantasy? ;)
Most here don't want that, so I wouldn't worry if you absolutely hate the direction I would choose. DE aren't likely to even think about it, but I do enjoy thinking about how it would absolutely trigger some fans not only to read what I just wrote, but if it were indeed implemented. The reactions would be epicly hilarious.
I'd gladly pay for a "Warframe 2" that did exactly that.

--

Now, for the second part, I disagree with you that the direction or writing is subpar. I will gladly concede that the specifics are intentionally vague and up to debate, but with a little effort the implications of the situations the Tenno find themselves in are quite intriguing and even exciting.
I am very much looking forwards to find out what influence the Void Entity has had on the Tenno and when. It may even turn out that it had a hand in the rebellion against the Orokin, turning the Tenno into feral warriors that went berserk with their powers, just as they did aboard the Zariman. Unlikely, but it'd be cool at least.

Pardon the long post. I hope it was entertaining at least.

[SnuggleBuckets]

53 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

The Tenno likely saw themselves as rescued by the Orokin--

Doesn't matter what the Tenno thought they saw themselves as, that's the point of indoctrination, why are you defending it?

55 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Now, did they go through grueling training and experimentation? Sure, but for all they knew, the Orokin were helping and the person most involved with them (Margulis) was indeed sympathetic and genuinly interested in saving them.

Again, isn't that the whole point of brainwashing, cultish indoctrination? To convince the victims you're doing the horrible stuff to them to help them? Why do you feel the need to defend this horrible practice?

56 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Obviously the Orokin were using them for their own gain, but that's not necessarily how the Tenno saw it, which is the important part here.

Yeah, again, you convince the subjects you're doing it for their own good. Classic human psychological manipulation, use very costly traumatic events to force the subjects psyche itself to try and justify why it happens, everything from the sunk cost fallacy to hazing to basic belief acquirement depends on manipulating this part of our behaviour to seek reasons for why we went through with something horrible, to make it easier on us.
Why are you defending this horrible practice?

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

Tenno are proud warriors with great skill and tactical training that compete with one another, they value honor and have five distinct schools of philosophy and approach to life, as well as combat. They have rituals, they dance, they value worthy opponents and foster bonds with loyal companions.

And how is this a good thing? I'm being very serious, in the context of our entire discussion ranging from a few pages back, how is any of this a good thing?

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

Victimizing them the way you did removes all of that context and removes their agency in revisionist history, which is not only a disservice, but could be interpreted as an insult, much like how a politician uses veterans or servicemen for his or her own gain.

... What? How is a child, lacking maturity, the responsibilities, independence and individuality we expect from healthy adults, at all comparable to a veteran? You agreed:

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

Calling them indoctrinated child soldiers, though an apt description, doesn't do the story or context justice.

Of course they have limited agency! That's what being an impulsive, impressionable, not fully developed child means!

1 hour ago, Smilomaniac said:

I'm one of those people here on the forums that wants the Orokin to return and allow you to join them. It's absolutely the wrong thing to do morally, but it makes perfect sense for these veteran warriors to want to return to the old ways of hierarchy, glory and mass adoration by the population, rather than the silly bounty hunters they're turning into.

Thank you, okay, I feel like the discussion is grounded again, so you're talking about roleplaying now within the confines of the given story, at least I can understand and respect that. I don't want to roleplay within the confines of this particular story, but that is my taste (see my very first sentence in the very first comment here). I prefer that if I'm going to play some evil character, it would have a level of levity, humour, hamminess, cheesiness, to keep it constantly grounded, I usually don't go for the super serious sinister roleplaying, but hey, that's just me.
Your desciption, the fantasy, is a sinister, dark and evil one, if you want to play that out, then sure.

You know what's funny? The new player experience, my initial experience, before any Second Dream shenanigans, was a light-hearted mercenary space trucker vibe.
Capturing thieves for information, freeing arms dealers with fun personalities, having a quirky broken ship AI, and just surviving on what you could scrape together, hoard, loot, taking bounties, especially now with Cetus as a huckster merchant market place adding to that atmoshpere, just being this ancient weapon now lost in a new era, having to make their own life without the same confines of their old world, maybe banding together with other lost Warframes, building their own lives from scratch, making their own place in a hostile system, building dojos, helping Clem the silly spy, seeking their own self created meaning and purpose for the first time.
All of that evoked a Han Solo/ Firefly/ Guardians of the Galaxy/ Rogue Rebel space smuggler/merchant/mercenary/outcast/outlaw vibe, and I would have loved that fun cheesy space adventure vibe to continue.
What's even funnier is that these self-professed thieves with a heart of gold would have actually been more relatable, fun, sympathetic characters to roleplay as, even though more upfront about their character flaws and immoral stupid tendencies.
Instead we get indoctrinated, dogmatic, brainwashed children who rationalize why they are superior and all those who are not worthy should perish by their hand.

[Heatnix.]

On 10/26/2017 at 3:30 PM, Teloch said:

kuva and even more so eidolons are not obligatory or crucial for the game progression. So far, the operator mode is a glorified archwing.

Obligatory indeed. You want to roll Rivens which allow you to get more done? You need Kuva. You need Kuva for some weapons as well. Eidolons? You also need materials to craft things. You can choose to ignore these right now, but slowly and surely they have been making Operators more and more a necessity.

It's just a matter of time til they are obligatory-- unless they get bored and make the Third Dream where Tenno are really tiny aliens from Men In Black piloting the emotionally unstable kids that control the Meat Puppets. What a twist!... it could happen. DE has no idea what they wanted to do and have gone into a different, magical-girl direction. I expect nothing from the lore anymore and only the worst from the operator concept.

[Unus]

Honestly? I don't mind . I listen to folks vehement hatred of and rigorous defense of the Operators. . . and I just play.

 

This is an opinion that is either rare or unspoken, but, well, despite my ardent love of creating things that could potentially seamlessly or with minor stitching attach to the universe at large, i've. . . well. . .i've learned to recognize that, no matter how much I'd like to, I have absolutely no control over anything that Digital inscribes or will inscribe into the big book of Warframe.

 

Digital wanted to have the Warframe's be a line of android and gynoid biodrones manipulated by mutant children? Sure, fine. Digital wants to combatify these mutant children? Fine, sure, I'll bite. 

 

If its in the game and has all the mechanics implemented to the point it has it's roots in to core gameplay, what use is there in waging war on it? My philosophy, not meant to be fanatically or moderately imparted on anyone.

 

Ultimately, as I am but an insignificant sand-grain in the tsunami that is the Warframe community, the only thing I can do is tell Digital about bugs and ramble on and on about concepts over at my own stick in the ground.

 

Just my two cents + wooden nickel on the matter.

[AerinSol]

I hate them. Even more with the Eiodolon update since they are still useless.

Before it was for a gimmick for kuva. Guess what? Kuva is the new endo, yay! To sorties!!!

With the implementation of the Plains they have given cosmetic armors that give no buffs and weapons that are only truly useful against an enemy that gives reputation points to buy items to kill it again!

[freeformline]

I believe the operators were a fine way to fill a necessary role in the lore: an explanation of why a single tenno could use multiple warframes with wildly different body shapes and sizes. I wasn't a big fan of the operators being children with mediocre dialog, but I found a nice sort of parental/protector vibe between my warframe and operator during the Second Dream quest. I was disappointed that the War Within focused solely on the operator rather than on the warframe-operator relationship, but I trust there will be more on that to come, probably in the Sacrifice release.

That said, I think the operators should have little more presence on the battlefield than passively modifying warframe functions, and possibly the periodic (preferably briefer and more frequent) bursts of void energy from Focus 1.0. As several others have said before me, I play Warframe to play warframes, and it just doesn't make sense to me to have a squishy little human child running around the battlefield when I could instead have my legendary army-slaughtering superweapon-with-thumbs do the work. I had hoped Focus 2.0 would have focused on making more interesting and useful warframe passives and lowering active ability cooldowns, rather than pumping most of the trees into boosts to operator mode.

I also don't really understand why the operators are able to instantly teleport or project themselves into any battlefield, but they cannot channel their operator abilities (void beam, void dash, etc.) through their warframes instead.

[Smilomaniac]

7 hours ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

Doesn't matter what the Tenno thought they saw themselves as, that's the point of indoctrination, why are you defending it?

Again, isn't that the whole point of brainwashing, cultish indoctrination? To convince the victims you're doing the horrible stuff to them to help them? Why do you feel the need to defend this horrible practice?

Yeah, again, you convince the subjects you're doing it for their own good. Classic human psychological manipulation, use very costly traumatic events to force the subjects psyche itself to try and justify why it happens, everything from the sunk cost fallacy to hazing to basic belief acquirement depends on manipulating this part of our behaviour to seek reasons for why we went through with something horrible, to make it easier on us.
Why are you defending this horrible practice?

And how is this a good thing? I'm being very serious, in the context of our entire discussion ranging from a few pages back, how is any of this a good thing?

... What? How is a child, lacking maturity, the responsibilities, independence and individuality we expect from healthy adults, at all comparable to a veteran? You agreed:

Of course they have limited agency! That's what being an impulsive, impressionable, not fully developed child means!

We're wading into some life lesson territory here.

You my friend, have to learn how to distinguish between defending something and understanding the finer details of a situation, in the context of a society that is far removed from our own. You also have to understand that while we're talking about children, they can absolutely reach a level of maturity that is comparable to an adult, especially if they have been forced by their circumstances, such as having to survive on a ship by themselves for an extended period of time.
We've reached a social point where we artificially extend the adolescence as far as we can for the sake of education and sheltering them, but while some flourish in this environment, others wander aimlessly without any sense of purpose and would've been better off learning life lessons early.

Now, according to any standard, were the Tenno exploited and treated inhumanely for at least part of their upbringing? Absolutely, this is a given that we can easily accept as truth.
Moving beyond that, it's also the truth that they were fed, sheltered, well cared for and were put in high regard by most, which is not a bad life.

Since we used the word indoctrination, let's use that as an example; Is indoctrination evil? Well that depends on the content of said beliefs and the context in which they're used.
All soldiers today are indoctrinated in the art of warfare, tactics and belief in the chain of command. If someone breaks that chain, it carries severe consequences that puts the lives that has been entrusted to them at lethal risk. On a lower rank, you not only trust your commander, but the men standing to your left and right, your life is in their hands as theirs are in yours.

This is essentially brainwashing for the purpose of unit cohesion, which is absolutely a good thing for you and your comrades.

The Tenno were also indoctrinated to believe in the Orokin as their masters or at least leaders, which could easily be seen as a negative, but there should also have been a sense of gratitude for their lavish circumstances, their training, their sense of self and self confidence that comes with that training. They've also gained a lot of siblings through the Zariman incident and that has given them a brotherhood or lodge of equals to grow with.
Having been granted a purpose in life and a sense of belonging is a very powerful and valuable thing.

All of these things are a very strong platform to build up character and self confidence and I have no doubt that when the Tenno reach full maturity and are able to reflect on their lives, that while they have been exploited, they have also been turned into extremely capable people.

Were the Tenno exclusively used as child soldiers and treated as such? No, I don't believe so. I am absolutely certain that they've learned some philosophy and an appreciation for art and aesthetics (however ostantatious it may have been). Had the Orokin been able to love the Tenno as their own and not been seen largely as a commodity, the uprise would've never have happened. I believe that the Tenno would have shown undying dedication and everlasting loyalty, had that been the case.

I'm sure you still see this as a defense, but I have to highlight the positives as examples to contrast with the negatives and paint a more full picture of the early life as a Tenno. If you only take the negatives or let them outweigh the rest without care or consideration, then you're not understanding their perception, you're merely applying your own lens which doesn't lead you anywhere.

A child soldier can still laugh and experience wonder, they're not broken toys, they're just different.

8 hours ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

Thank you, okay, I feel like the discussion is grounded again, so you're talking about roleplaying now within the confines of the given story, at least I can understand and respect that. I don't want to roleplay within the confines of this particular story, but that is my taste (see my very first sentence in the very first comment here). I prefer that if I'm going to play some evil character, it would have a level of levity, humour, hamminess, cheesiness, to keep it constantly grounded, I usually don't go for the super serious sinister roleplaying, but hey, that's just me.
Your desciption, the fantasy, is a sinister, dark and evil one, if you want to play that out, then sure.

I'll be honest, I don't see this as a discussion. You've taken a hardline stance against what I've tried to explain in order to promote your own standards. I understand why, but it's a limited viewpoint that can only lead to one conclusion that no one will learn or grow from.

If you saw what I wrote about a Tenno trying to reclaim a previous glory as evil, then you've misunderstood the ambition and tragedy of that story. It's not meant to be a grimdark tale, but as an exploration into the overarching theme of benevolent dictatorship and the core values of a person that didn't take too well to losing what they had as a golden warrior of unlimited power and resources. Maybe giving up the suits and starting a farm would have them lead a much more fulfilling life, but that wouldn't be nearly as interesting, now would it.

8 hours ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

You know what's funny? The new player experience, my initial experience, before any Second Dream shenanigans, was a light-hearted mercenary space trucker vibe.
Capturing thieves for information, freeing arms dealers with fun personalities, having a quirky broken ship AI, and just surviving on what you could scrape together, hoard, loot, taking bounties, especially now with Cetus as a huckster merchant market place adding to that atmoshpere, just being this ancient weapon now lost in a new era, having to make their own life without the same confines of their old world, maybe banding together with other lost Warframes, building their own lives from scratch, making their own place in a hostile system, building dojos, helping Clem the silly spy, seeking their own self created meaning and purpose for the first time.
All of that evoked a Han Solo/ Firefly/ Guardians of the Galaxy/ Rogue Rebel space smuggler/merchant/mercenary/outcast/outlaw vibe, and I would have loved that fun cheesy space adventure vibe to continue.
What's even funnier is that these self-professed thieves with a heart of gold would have actually been more relatable, fun, sympathetic characters to roleplay as, even though more upfront about their character flaws and immoral stupid tendencies.
Instead we get indoctrinated, dogmatic, brainwashed children who rationalize why they are superior and all those who are not worthy should perish by their hand.

I think that's a beautiful story that has in part been taken away from you with the reveal of the operators. Keep in mind that the Tenno completely lost their sense of self as children and saw their warframes as their actual bodies, so you can always pretend that moving the weak child to the orbiter is done and over with and you can simply live out your fantasy however you want to and forget that the child even exists. I've seen others following that line of reasoning as well and it's certainly a valid one, afterall, why be limited to one body when you have dozens that you can swap between with each their own story and ambitions.

While you still have to contend with what DE is pushing on you (fighting Teralysts with your operator for example), you can opt to not do that. Afterall, that specific grind only serves to improve your operator, which you can freely ignore, at least for now.

[SnuggleBuckets]

10 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

You also have to understand that while we're talking about children, they can absolutely reach a level of maturity that is comparable to an adult, especially if they have been forced by their circumstances, such as having to survive on a ship by themselves for an extended period of time.

You know where we witness exactly the same level of reasoning? Pedophiles, when they try to justify why some children are mentally capable of giving consent.

12 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Now, according to any standard, were the Tenno exploited and treated inhumanely for at least part of their upbringing? Absolutely, this is a given that we can easily accept as truth.
Moving beyond that, it's also the truth that they were fed, sheltered, well cared for and were put in high regard by most, which is not a bad life.

Most parents inflicting abuse on their children still provide shelter, food and protection.
Would it be okay to "snatch" a homeless orphan, give them food and shelter under my roof, as long as they revere me and work for me and do not cross me?

15 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Since we used the word indoctrination, let's use that as an example; Is indoctrination evil? Well that depends on the content of said beliefs and the context in which they're used.

Indoctrination is by definition manipulation, taking away another's agency and freedom. Reasoning like this, that the end justifies the means, is what gets us genocides, holocausts, ethnic cleansings, the whole lot.

18 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

This is essentially brainwashing for the purpose of unit cohesion, which is absolutely a good thing for you and your comrades.

Find other means to foster group cohesion, appeal to reasons, don't take away their freedom, or treat them as inferior who need to be forced into doing things.
That's a really bad example, because at least modern armies are voluntary to a large part and you can actually leave at some point, and cohesion is rationally justifiable by reasons. We have been talking about indoctrinated child soldiers expected to commit for the rest of their lives to butchering others in the name of forced causes.

22 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

Having been granted a purpose in life and a sense of belonging is a very powerful and valuable thing.

Have you been indoctrinated? You are seriously sounding like you have been, and still are, you haven't shaken the chains others have put on your mind.
This is EXACTLY how nazis or religious zealots defend their ideology.

25 minutes ago, Smilomaniac said:

All of these things are a very strong platform to build up character and self confidence and I have no doubt that when the Tenno reach full maturity and are able to reflect on their lives, that while they have been exploited, they have also been turned into extremely capable people.

I give up. You're either a troll or you seriously need help.

[Mak_Gohae]

the game was sold on you being this badass wearing bioarmor and it turned into you being an eleventeen year-old kit with space magic.

needless to say, that's a tremendous shift on the game.

[Smilomaniac]

40 minutes ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

You know where we witness exactly the same level of reasoning? Pedophiles, when they try to justify why some children are mentally capable of giving consent.

Most parents inflicting abuse on their children still provide shelter, food and protection.
Would it be okay to "snatch" a homeless orphan, give them food and shelter under my roof, as long as they revere me and work for me and do not cross me?

Indoctrination is by definition manipulation, taking away another's agency and freedom. Reasoning like this, that the end justifies the means, is what gets us genocides, holocausts, ethnic cleansings, the whole lot.

Find other means to foster group cohesion, appeal to reasons, don't take away their freedom, or treat them as inferior who need to be forced into doing things.
That's a really bad example, because at least modern armies are voluntary to a large part and you can actually leave at some point, and cohesion is rationally justifiable by reasons. We have been talking about indoctrinated child soldiers expected to commit for the rest of their lives to butchering others in the name of forced causes.

Have you been indoctrinated? You are seriously sounding like you have been, and still are, you haven't shaken the chains others have put on your mind.
This is EXACTLY how nazis or religious zealots defend their ideology.

I give up. You're either a troll or you seriously need help.

It occurs to me that you simply don't have the life experience to distinguish between understanding something and justifying it. You've neglected to be reasonable and I urge you to make an effort and try to go beyond your own viewpoint and try to understand what people tell you when they spend time explaining something to you.

Standing on principle still requires you to understand opposite viewpoints, because that principle is the conclusion of careful consideration and weighing the outcomes. You have done neither and frivolously espouse talking points that I don't think you truly understand.
The irony here is that we both have reached the same conclusion, that the exploitation of the Tenno is not alright and that (in a perfect world) they should have never gone through it, but you level accusations at me for going deeper than the surface on this topic. I can only hope that you never have to support a victim of any sort as long as you behave this way, because you will do far more harm to them than be of any genuine help.

Dismiss me as a troll or grow from the experience. It's your choice.

[kaz3n]

i like it, This is a much better system than 1.0 focus. the operator is actually useful in fights. I think the controls are still abit weird... i think the slide should just be void dash with very minimal energy usage and the amp should just be interchangeable... 

[SnuggleBuckets]

Ah, I'm not sophisticated enough, typical theological excuses.
I wonder why some feel the need to try endlessly to justify, in excruciating detail, pouring all their effort and showing how utterly absorbed they are in a fictional setting, why they so utterly blindly feel the need rationalize and whitewash evil.
If you just want to roleplay as an evil space nazi then do it, say it's fun. Don't be all creepy and defend it endlessly like you are defending horrors in your scriptures.

This has nothing to do with how I would treat a victim, I simply don't glorify all of these horrors.
It's a bloody video game, you're getting way too involved in it where you are writing genuine defenses, just like you're taking the persona too seriously, acting like a real victim suffering from Stockholm's Syndrome, battered wives syndrome, why? Can't you enjoy the game, separate the horror, and not try and brush it aside by "context"?

[Smilomaniac]

45 minutes ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

Ah, I'm not sophisticated enough, typical theological excuses.
I wonder why some feel the need to try endlessly to justify, in excruciating detail, pouring all their effort and showing how utterly absorbed they are in a fictional setting, why they so utterly blindly feel the need rationalize and whitewash evil.
If you just want to roleplay as an evil space nazi then do it, say it's fun. Don't be all creepy and defend it endlessly like you are defending horrors in your scriptures.

This has nothing to do with how I would treat a victim, I simply don't glorify all of these horrors.
It's a bloody video game, you're getting way too involved in it where you are writing genuine defenses, just like you're taking the persona too seriously, acting like a real victim suffering from Stockholm's Syndrome, battered wives syndrome, why? Can't you enjoy the game, separate the horror, and not try and brush it aside by "context"?

I'm not religious, never have been. If you have an issue with how others enjoy games or fiction, might I suggest not responding to them in the first place?

I'm not measuring you by some sort of sophisticated level either. I'd say the qualities I'm talking about are quite basic in most people.

[SnivicDelta]

Personally I love the operators and love what they are doing with them. They still however are still on the weaker end and I hope they continue to make them even better to the point where they would be comparable to your warframes so you are at no disadvantage for using them over your warframe.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Interesting there are two very different reasons for liking or not like Operators

1. You love/hate the Lore
2. You love/hate the gameplay

For me personally, I liked the idea I was (as an earlier poster said) a Han Solo'esque space pirate - until that dream was shattered in the second dream.

For me personally, I dislike the gameplay and would have preferred the operator be relegated to non-combatant roles in the orbitor, dojo, relays, etc

So I guess I dislike both the lore and the gameplay, tolerating both as I enjoy the rest of WF.

[SnuggleBuckets]

One last thing I feel is interesting to elaborate upon in a discussion of justifying the ideology presented here.
When someone talks of "The Greater Good" and reaching your more "noble higher meaning and purpose in life", it is always at the expense of other peoples lives and freedoms, a necessary sacrifice for that higher goal. People reaching for any kind of utopia try to do it by any means necessary, but that's the problem, the moment you think the ends justify the means you're simply creating a dystopia. So much of history shows that and fiction has been exploring that simple equation humans use where if you postulate an infinitely good end point, then all the immoral acts you commit to achieve them are still not infinitely bad, so you're always ahead of the game. But you can never allow dissenters to live in peace and not follow your plans, because they are standing in the way, not helping to bring about faster this perceived greater good and utopia.

But in the end, I want to repeat what the proper context here is; after all my complaints, I still enjoy the vast majority of my experience with Warframe where I can ignore in my day to day grinding and looting and shooting the lore of this game. I just came here to share my dislike of the Operators, which I'd prefer to be written and performed in a different manner.
Some here agree, others do not.
End of the day, don't get so serious about your defenses of the game guys.

 

[(PSN)Lowk721]

Yes but I wish they fixed the writing for them. The voice work could benifit from a few retries. But the dialogue itself needs to be overhauled. Along with an ability maybe give an option to pick a certain mood or taking out/replacing certain responses.

19 hours ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

Instead we get indoctrinated, dogmatic, brainwashed children who rationalize why they are superior and all those who are not worthy should perish by their hand.

Where did you get that reasoning from? Back then you had a Tenno stand up and potentially willing to sacrifice their lives for a little sand village being abused. Now most just seem to have a unhealthy distaste for tyranny and/or greed because of the Orokin.

By the time the story starts the only brainwashing left seems to be that they thought they were warframes. As they are now, they're on a redemption tour fighting empires and helping colonist. 

Edited October 28, 2017 by (PS4)Lowk721

[VoidMask]

5 hours ago, SnuggleBuckets said:

What he said yes, the reasoning is analogous and equally fallacious. Him saying it doesn't make him one, that's never implied, simply that in defending a work of fiction he used a similarly structured argument as pedophiles have used in their own defense. Simple as that.

One last thing I feel is interesting to elaborate upon in a discussion of justifying the ideology presented here.
When someone talks of "The Greater Good" and reaching your more "noble higher meaning and purpose in life", it is always at the expense of other peoples lives and freedoms, a necessary sacrifice for that higher goal. People reaching for any kind of utopia try to do it by any means necessary, but that's the problem, the moment you think the ends justify the means you're simply creating a dystopia. So much of history shows that and fiction has been exploring that simple equation humans use where if you postulate an infinitely good end point, then all the immoral acts you commit to achieve them are still not infinitely bad, so you're always ahead of the game. But you can never allow dissenters to live in peace and not follow your plans, because they are standing in the way, not helping to bring about faster this perceived greater good and utopia.

But in the end, I want to repeat what the proper context here is; after all my complaints, I still enjoy the vast majority of my experience with Warframe where I can ignore in my day to day grinding and looting and shooting the lore of this game. I just came here to share my dislike of the Operators, which I'd prefer to be written and performed in a different manner.
Some here agree, others do not.
End of the day, don't get so serious about your defenses of the game guys.

 

You, sir, are just a hot mess.

 

Seriously. A really hot mess. Void, comparing what he said with pedophiles. ffs You're going into a political and societal discussion on an online forum about how you feel about coding. and you're equating what people are saying to people who F*** kids. Take a step back and look at yourself.

 

So how about we stop derailing the original post and just go on with the farming.

Edited October 28, 2017 by Kindred-VoidMask
Clarify

[Midas]

man I am loving operator and warframe synergy. I can dash and shoot my amp + aoe fireballs with madurai. annihilating 80+ groups

[(XBOX)AntiCaesar]

Mine actually kinda looks cool, not sure if it's the emokid thing for you or you don't read the codex.

[Dziki94]

Operator is fine, but i don't like that DEvs force us to put our little emokid into a blood bath. This is bad. And kinda wierd.