Why Lotus is evil for you?

[WindigoTG]

Because she's a bad mother.

I mean, thanks for those Reactor gifts, Mom, I guess, but I already have more than I'll ever need, while I don't have nearly as much Catalysts.

You totally don't know what your child wants, Mom!

Edited November 10, 2017 by WindigoTP

[GhostLacuna]

She is a sentient and was the main force behind the collapse of a civilization.

no matter the actions of the other fractions that alone make her and us evil.

 

[TrinityPrime]

If Lotus was Evil for me she wouldn't be offering objectives based on vague sense of morality or survival. It would just be go do this thing and or slaughter lots and I'll bake you some brownies.

_{And I would totally do it no questions asked.}

[Rixuel]

Lotus is evil because she is far away from us.

She would be good if she's near us everytime :P

Edited November 10, 2017 by Rixuel

[Shorty]

1987, keeping us in the dark, fighting for her cause, partaking in mass genocide.

[Teloch]

35 minutes ago, GhostLacuna said:

She is a sentient and was the main force behind the collapse of a civilization.

no matter the actions of the other fractions that alone make her and us evil.

 

Well yeah. But most of the people are uncomfortable to acknowledge that (or simply don't give a damn). 

[Eidolon_Slayer]

She's neutral

[Corvid]

2 hours ago, --Cephalon-- said:

1987

What does this mean? Are you referring to 1984?

[Ryim_Drykeon]

Monster I must be, lest monster I become.

[Podge]

i wouldnt say that space mom is downright evil, but she's definitely shady. i mean she tells us to do stuff, but she doesnt really give a reason as to why, or when she does, it's usually pretty vague. also we dont even know if what little info we get is accurate. she could totally be lying to us. i still plan on following her because vague directions are better then nothing, and much better than staring down the barrel of a gun like we would be with the grineer or corpus, but i'm not sure if i really trust lotus all that much. especially knowing how much she hides from us. like the whole natah thing.

really though i think that all this is going to play a part in the story of the game. so far it seems to be a story about growing up, and making more choices for ourselves, like in the war within quest.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Podge

[FireSegment]

i think when u encounty the lotus is evil argument, it mean that lotus - as a character - have a lot of potential to develop into a villain. She could be ... "over-protected" sometime, very little to know about her prior to Natah quest, mysterious intent, for example: 

why would she wake us? she must care about something ELSE beside us to wake us up, if not she would just let us sleep)

What is Lotus end goal? become like the Twin Kweens and control the system? Is the havoc we created really for the innocent? 

If we tenno grow out of her control, would she put us back to sleep? or kill us? or let us go our way? if the later is true, why don't we see any other tenno that already "on their way" around the system?

....

In other note, the trend of unreliable narrator for game are kinda strong in general (GladOS in Portal is the first example pop up in my head) so it kinda create a phantom expectation that we end up need to battle lotus for a long time, as her original concept are more similar to an AI than a person (now they push that role to Ordis, and he's an unreliable narrator too, just .... a bit different)

[Wolfdoggie]

She's obviously evil, she just happens to love us and not use that evil against us (anymore) because we were too cute to murder. Charisma is a powerful self-defense.

Not all evil things are your enemy. Just look at the Marvel Universe when they end up allying with Dr. Doom all the time to stop a bigger foe for the good of the whole planet, or when they let Carnage joined the good side. :v

[(PSN)Unstar]

17 hours ago, ---EG---Wind_Blade said:

I do not understand the logic of people saying that the Lotus is an enemy. What I mean is that she has no interest in doing this as an ally. She could have killed us instead of waking us up. And even if she wanted to pretend to be an ally, there are lots of situations where she could have killed us. During the second dream, the war within etc.

Food for thought: not all of your enemies want you dead — at least not right away.  Especially when you have magic robot ninja powers that could be of great use.

That said, I'm personally not ready to call the Lotus an enemy of the Tenno, but I also wouldn't say that she has the moral high ground, not even compared to the Grineer, the Corpus, or the Infestion.

I try not to use words like "good" or "evil"; like so many words, they tend to be dismissive, and can result in us missing important details and nuance.

The Lotus

As others have said, she (almost?) entirely destroyed an entire civilization.  From everything we've heard, the leaders of that civilization were pretty racist and corrupt, but the Lotus didn't lead a revolution to overthrow those in power.  No, she destroyed the civilization.

And when she was done with that, she did a heel turn and decided to spare the Tenno.  But note that she didn't do this because her morals or values compelled her to.  She did it because there was something she wanted: kids.  And so she took them.

And now she uses those same children as soldiers in her army.  Sometimes she tells them to go kill space-truckers that are simply moving goods.  Sometimes she sends them to kill soldiers hanging at their base until the survivors are demoralized.  Sometimes she tells them to go steal supplies from other factions.  At best, these types of actions operate in a grey area, and they're worth pondering.

The Grineer

In the same way that I wouldn't consider the Lotus the same as the Tenno, so do I think it's important to separate the Grineer from the Grineer Queens.  Grineer are genetically engineered to be subservient to their leaders.  So when their leaders tell them to be soldiers and go attack something, they literally don't have a choice.

But you know who else had that same problem?  The Dax.  And I don't think killing the Dax would have been a good goal.  The Grineer are slaves to their queens.  Why not focus on cutting off the serpent's head?  That way you can stop the violence while also liberating an entire population...y'know, instead of killing that population.

I think it's also important to not only consider where the Grineer are now, but where they were before.  The Grineer have always been slaves.  And now that they're no longer under the thumb of the Orokin, they might be scared of ever having to deal with that again.  It makes sense that they would want to build up their military presence to protect themselves, perhaps even pre-emptively attacking others out of fear for their own survival, born from their history of being violently oppressed.  I wouldn't say that this excuses their violence, but I think it's worth looking at with compassion.  They aren't simply monsters.

Of course, the irony is that the Orokin are still pulling their strings, but they don't know that.

The Corpus

Similar to the Grineer, the Corpus have a lot of employees who are clones.  They are given just enough mental ability to perform the tasks they are assigned.

However, the Corpus by and large aren't an aggressive army.  They're capitalists.  We know that a significant portion of the Corpus are legitimate traders, builders, technicians, delivery people, security guards.  They also have armed forces and produce weapons, but that shouldn't immediately condemn them — note that the Tenno do the same thing.  There are certainly some ranking members of the Corpus that abuse this power, but I don't think that should condemn every member of their organization to a fiery death in space.

The Infestion

The Orokin had a penchant for creating powerful slaves that escaped their control, and the Infestation is no exception.  The Infestation seems to have a fairly simple goal: to spread.  It sees you standing their, all alone, and it doesn't want you to be alone.  From what Mutalist Alad V said, being a part of the Infestation actually sounds kind of nice, and the ultimate goal of universal peace is one I think we can all agree is good.  Granted, their methods are less than desirable; someone should really talk to the Infestation about "consent".

But in my opinion, the Infestation isn't that different from your typical colonialist society.  The big difference seems to be that the Infestation doesn't need to do the whole song and dance of arriving in a new culture, slowly overpowering it through various means, and ultimately destroying or assimilating it.  Simply put, it's faster and a lot more effective.  There's an argument to be made that it may even be less violent.

You

You woke up and the Lotus told you to kill.  Did you hesitate?  How long did it take you to question the motives of your master?

Would you even consider not killing in her name? ;)

[Wind_Blade]

il y a 29 minutes, (PS4)Unstar a dit :

Food for thought: not all of your enemies want you dead — at least not right away.  Especially when you have magic robot ninja powers that could be of great use.

That said, I'm personally not ready to call the Lotus an enemy of the Tenno, but I also wouldn't say that she has the moral high ground, not even compared to the Grineer, the Corpus, or the Infestion.

I try not to use words like "good" or "evil"; like so many words, they tend to be dismissive, and can result in us missing important details and nuance.

The Lotus

As others have said, she (almost?) entirely destroyed an entire civilization.  From everything we've heard, the leaders of that civilization were pretty racist and corrupt, but the Lotus didn't lead a revolution to overthrow those in power.  No, she destroyed the civilization.

And when she was done with that, she did a heel turn and decided to spare the Tenno.  But note that she didn't do this because her morals or values compelled her to.  She did it because there was something she wanted: kids.  And so she took them.

And now she uses those same children as soldiers in her army.  Sometimes she tells them to go kill space-truckers that are simply moving goods.  Sometimes she sends them to kill soldiers hanging at their base until the survivors are demoralized.  Sometimes she tells them to go steal supplies from other factions.  At best, these types of actions operate in a grey area, and they're worth pondering.

The Grineer

In the same way that I wouldn't consider the Lotus the same as the Tenno, so do I think it's important to separate the Grineer from the Grineer Queens.  Grineer are genetically engineered to be subservient to their leaders.  So when their leaders tell them to be soldiers and go attack something, they literally don't have a choice.

But you know who else had that same problem?  The Dax.  And I don't think killing the Dax would have been a good goal.  The Grineer are slaves to their queens.  Why not focus on cutting off the serpent's head?  That way you can stop the violence while also liberating an entire population...y'know, instead of killing that population.

I think it's also important to not only consider where the Grineer are now, but where they were before.  The Grineer have always been slaves.  And now that they're no longer under the thumb of the Orokin, they might be scared of ever having to deal with that again.  It makes sense that they would want to build up their military presence to protect themselves, perhaps even pre-emptively attacking others out of fear for their own survival, born from their history of being violently oppressed.  I wouldn't say that this excuses their violence, but I think it's worth looking at with compassion.  They aren't simply monsters.

Of course, the irony is that the Orokin are still pulling their strings, but they don't know that.

The Corpus

Similar to the Grineer, the Corpus have a lot of employees who are clones.  They are given just enough mental ability to perform the tasks they are assigned.

However, the Corpus by and large aren't an aggressive army.  They're capitalists.  We know that a significant portion of the Corpus are legitimate traders, builders, technicians, delivery people, security guards.  They also have armed forces and produce weapons, but that shouldn't immediately condemn them — note that the Tenno do the same thing.  There are certainly some ranking members of the Corpus that abuse this power, but I don't think that should condemn every member of their organization to a fiery death in space.

The Infestion

The Orokin had a penchant for creating powerful slaves that escaped their control, and the Infestation is no exception.  The Infestation seems to have a fairly simple goal: to spread.  It sees you standing their, all alone, and it doesn't want you to be alone.  From what Mutalist Alad V said, being a part of the Infestation actually sounds kind of nice, and the ultimate goal of universal peace is one I think we can all agree is good.  Granted, their methods are less than desirable; someone should really talk to the Infestation about "consent".

But in my opinion, the Infestation isn't that different from your typical colonialist society.  The big difference seems to be that the Infestation doesn't need to do the whole song and dance of arriving in a new culture, slowly overpowering it through various means, and ultimately destroying or assimilating it.  Simply put, it's faster and a lot more effective.  There's an argument to be made that it may even be less violent.

You

You woke up and the Lotus told you to kill.  Did you hesitate?  How long did it take you to question the motives of your master?

Would you even consider not killing in her name? ;)

Very good analyse i enjoy to read your comment :)

[Undirys]

She suffered a "lapse" while going from the Tau System to the Origin System (supposedly), so even when she put the Tenno against the Orokin... she still wanted to "protect" them (much like Margullis), still... what will happen it this "lapse" is overwritten? Say, by Hunhow... will the Tenno work against everything and everyone being the ultimate weapon against all galaxy? Or she will face his father once again? I will keep saying it, the idea of the us (the players) being the bad guys would be amazing and quite the twist, but we still need to wait for DE to work on many things.

Overall, she got her agenda... one that we still need to know about.