The "Operation" tag is misleading

[PlaceholderBob]

I personally don't mind it call operation.While i'm not old player myself,i heard from some old player that this is not the first time operation didn't have leader/operation score or endurance mode.

[Vanille]

Also, instead of 1k, I'm getting 800 standing (and yes I did acually check Nakkak just in case its a result screen visual bug):

https://imgur.com/a/5DVTz

Edited November 15, 2017 by Kiwinille

[Raynalle]

31 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Well, those players ARE the ones who leave the most feedback, so...

so what? only they can enjoy the game? this is how is it? well the game looks great thanks to those players, and even someone like me who play 7 or 8 hour a day some time see the problem.

jesus, is so sad, they have an "idea" then let the other decide for them and the resulte.. god bless who still play after the last 2 update, we are the real fan...wonder for how much more time tho

[notlamprey]

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

If you have something to add to the discussion about this Operation, please do so. If you want to make jokes for rep, go to patch notes or somewhere else. Your "comment" contributes nothing to this topic.

Fixed that for ya.

I think the poster you quoted was merely gesturing at the faint glimmer of a particular attitude within your original post.

That person can feel vindicated, because you confirmed their suspicions by making this "response" to their "comment." Perhaps the worst mistake a person can make is to take themselves too seriously. That seems to me to be the suggestion implied (very gently, I might add) by the post to which you were responding.

Maybe you can't see how such an idea would contribute to this topic, but others of us can. I certainly don't need you to speak on my behalf, and you'd do well to keep in mind the question of whether you are regarding yourself and your ideas a bit too highly.

As for my own opinion, I don't see anything to lose in having simple leaderboards with no rewards attached. A line in profile stats preserves the history of the event's initial run, and those who are intrinsically motivated to push for high scores can do so.

It's possible that DE decided, based on the attitudes and behavior displayed by some (and not all) among the game's most competitive players, that the mere presence of leaderboards was untenable. I tend not to agree with that line of thinking, but it's conceivable that this is an experiment aimed at measuring or impacting the "presence" of certain attitudes - or the sub-communities that hold them - within the larger Warframe player base.

 

[Tain_OSkoom]

56 minutes ago, Xaelroa said:

Says on the link in the patch notes. 4 phylaxis is up to 2k, same for 4 catalyst, 4 of both gives you 3k.

Leaderboards encouraged way too much bad behaviors and exploit hunting for people in the past, and always will.

EVERY operation has been nothing more than a glorified tactical alert with a weapon and a cosmetic.

EVERY operation has been tedious repetitive missions, that comment is basically saying you hate ice cream because it's too cold.

If this event bothers you that much, quit the game, you won't be missed.

I think the distinction between Tactical Alert and Operation was that Tactical Alerts featured restricted or modified versions of existing game modes and units.

Operations have been introductions of new enemy types or new game modes.

They are tedious and repetitive, though. Hopefully it'll feel a bit more fun to play once the research is done and the Operation is fully activated.

[The_Mustachio]

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

If you have something to add to the discussion about this Operation, please do so. If you want to make jokes for rep, go to patch notes or somewhere else. Your comment contributes nothing to this topic.

I was hoping you were going to say something like that. You sir, have made my night. 

[Mr.Lube]

   I'm actually quite happy with the fact that there are no leaderboards, seeing as every past Event or Operation consisted of people trying to break the game to get an unfair advantage. Being able to actually work towards a realistically attainable reward gives me and my clan more motivation to play than past Operations.

[BornWithTeeth]

13 minutes ago, Mr.Lube said:

   I'm actually quite happy with the fact that there are no leaderboards, seeing as every past Event or Operation consisted of people trying to break the game to get an unfair advantage. Being able to actually work towards a realistically attainable reward gives me and my clan more motivation to play than past Operations.

As I recall, DE actually had to step in with the Pacifism Defect Operation and modify it halfway through because they ran the grind way, way too high. Ooops.

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

If you have something to add to the discussion about this Operation, please do so. If you want to make jokes for rep, go to patch notes or somewhere else. Your comment contributes nothing to this topic.

I'm genuinely sorry that this Operation is disappointing to you due to the lack of a leaderboard, but this response here is kind of obnoxious and self important. 

[phoenix1992]

17 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I'm genuinely sorry that this Operation is disappointing to you due to the lack of a leaderboard, but this response here is kind of obnoxious and self important. 

Ey, Teeth there are more issues with the "operation" outside of the leadearboard (and the absence of it).
 

[ShikiRen]

"Extreme grind"... I'm already 14k into t3. So about 15 more runs to get there, and then a few more for all zaw parts. I'll propably be done tomorrow, and there are 12 days time. I agree that it is really repetetive though. Especially since nothing changes locations (much) for an entire day/night cycle.

[BornWithTeeth]

34 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Ey, Teeth there are more issues with the "operation" outside of the leadearboard (and the absence of it).
 

There is a quite annoying bug in that the Eidolon Phylaxis is either not increasing the Standing per run, or simply Nakak is not registering the higher Standing.

 

[phoenix1992]

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

There is a quite annoying bug in that the Eidolon Phylaxis is either not increasing the Standing per run, or simply Nakak is not registering the higher Standing.

 

Outside of bugs, there are still fundamental brain fart issues with the Operation ^^

[ShikiRen]

7 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

There is a quite annoying bug in that the Eidolon Phylaxis is either not increasing the Standing per run, or simply Nakak is not registering the higher Standing.

 

Huh, luckily i did not run into that one yet.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, phoenix1992 said:

Outside of bugs, there are still fundamental brain fart issues with the Operation ^^

What kind of issues are you referring to?

 

Historically, what has really tended to define an event as an Operation (more than it just having a clan leaderboard, sorry) is that it introduces a new mechanic or enemy to the game, which then gets tweaked and added into the regular game. Fusion MOA's, Bursa units, the Grineer Sealab Tileset, the reworked Ambulas, the reworked Kela de Thaym and Rathuum, Excavation missions, they all got started in Operations. So, if that's what you're getting at, I do agree that we're not seeing much of a mechanical, in-game change. The closest thing to a real systemic change which this is introducing is the idea of a temporary or recurring Syndicate-as-token-system, recording battlefield contributions through Standing, asDE have confirmed that more Operations in future are intended to feature that mechanic.

[phoenix1992]

20 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

What kind of issues are you referring to?

 

Historically, what has really tended to define an event as an Operation (more than it just having a clan leaderboard, sorry) is that it introduces a new mechanic or enemy to the game, which then gets tweaked and added into the regular game. Fusion MOA's, Bursa units, the Grineer Sealab Tileset, the reworked Ambulas, the reworked Kela de Thaym and Rathuum, Excavation missions, they all got started in Operations. So, if that's what you're getting at, I do agree that we're not seeing much of a mechanical, in-game change. The closest thing to a real systemic change which this is introducing is the idea of a temporary or recurring Syndicate-as-token-system, recording battlefield contributions through Standing, asDE have confirmed that more Operations in future are intended to feature that mechanic.

Unlike of our friends, the forum warriors I am trying to get all information first hand before I make a final judgement. 
But issues based on the information so far :

1. The token system is "good" only if you are a new player. If you already have the weapons and the resources for PoE, the first 2 tiers are 2 shades of meh.
2. The bounty format is still far cry from something coherent. This is especially stingy, when we already have good formats that put is in 10-20 minute sessions without limiting our possibilities.
3. The difficulty drop  - I am tired of those "participation" missions and rewards.
4. Walking simulator - AW segment or no, it is still trecking for no good reason.
5. As you mentioned mechanics.
6. Tokens systems are good, if they are fined tuned. If I whip out a calculator and compare invested time vs rewards (something I have yet to do due to not experiencing it to full extend), this event takes more time but gives a less rewards and hides itself behind the token excuse. The "good" systems usually combine both loot tables and tokens in order to combat those issues - for example - you do your 10 RNG runs with the loot table, and you get enough points in order to purchase the items you were not able to get from lady luck.
7. PoE is still PoE - a module that is extremely detached from the game considering resources and credits.

Fair enough?

PS: I am going to commit a logical fallacy, by straw man couple of arguments that are used when it comes down to defending DE's decisions:

1. But they are innovating - Innovation for the sake of innovation is as trashy as diversity for the sake of diversity. You either have a reason outside of "for the innovation" or you are wasting time and resources.
2. But they are inventing new stuff - Reinventing the hot water is almost as bad as innovating for the sake of innovation. Warframe has the systems in place in order to make the event  "fun and engaging", the token system is not something new in any MMO type of game as well - again a waste of time and resources.
3. We should have patience - I did have that. I have played Warframe since 2015, and gave them multiple "free passes" on content, but since we don't live in vacuum, there is a breaking point to everything.
4. It is DE's game - No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes. We can learn from them and move on, ignoring them and doing the good old "DE did nothing wrong" is helping no one.

Edited November 16, 2017 by phoenix1992

[BornWithTeeth]

Those are fair criticisms!

 

Regarding the token system being good for new players, I had spotted that because I'm doing some of this event with relatively new players. I picked up the rather lovely event badge and then proceeded straight to ranking up, ignoring the resources at the lower levels.

 

I disagree that the Bounty format in itself is somehow inherently bad, or automatically inferior to a twenty minute Defence or fifteen minute Survival. It's a mission with multiple discrete goals, and this particular mission has a neat event chain, complete with a minor reward at each stage. That's not bad, and I really think that the only way that it would appear bad is if someone had already made up their mind that 'Bounties suck'.

 

The mission is quite easy, but I hope that introducing the mini-boss battle will help with that. Aside from that, I remember soloing the Gate Crash event, what, three years ago, when my build was tiny and I was doing everything with baseline Rhino and dual heat swords. I still soloed that whole event, and I remember it being fun and at least a very little bit challenging. In other words, this is just another manifestation of bored vets crushing content which newer players might find challenging. We'll see if Lephantis in drag provides a kick.

 

The distances are definitely a bit daft.

 

The thing about loot table vs token system is that I feel you're contradicting yourself a little. Your earlier point was that there's too much stuff in the Operation Syndicate which veteran players won't bother with and will just skip over. That's the point. Veteran players can skip over it and power through the early stage to pick out just the stuff they want. If DE had done it the other way, all loot table and no token system, people would be whining nonstop about getting resources or duplicate mods instead of the Zaw parts they want.

 

POE is still POE - yeah, but that's just you being annoyed about Plains. All that is actually needed to do this Operation is to go out and do it. You don't actually need any existing Cetus Standing or other Plains stuff, you can get stuck right in. Someone who's only been doing starchart stuff could still poke their nose in and pick up Operation rewards if they want.

 

 

So, I'm sorry phoenix, but I do think that your perception of the event is slightly skewed by your distaste for the Plains as a whole update.

[phoenix1992]

4 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

I disagree that the Bounty format in itself is somehow inherently bad, or automatically inferior to a twenty minute Defence or fifteen minute Survival. It's a mission with multiple discrete goals, and this particular mission has a neat event chain, complete with a minor reward at each stage. That's not bad, and I really think that the only way that it would appear bad is if someone had already made up their mind that 'Bounties suck'.

 

I am not saying the Bounty format is inherently bad. I am saying that it is still not good. I am pretty sure you enjoy the 100 kuva and 10 million naramon lenses.

 

4 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

The thing about loot table vs token system is that I feel you're contradicting yourself a little. Your earlier point was that there's too much stuff in the Operation Syndicate which veteran players won't bother with and will just skip over. That's the point. Veteran players can skip over it and power through the early stage to pick out just the stuff they want. If DE had done it the other way, all loot table and no token system, people would be whining nonstop about getting resources or duplicate mods instead of the Zaw parts they want.

 

I was taking them as separate entries. I am self aware enough to shut up about the quality of the rewards from the stand point of "I don't need that, but someone else will". 
But.
Previous events have brought unique mods, Stratus Badges, weapons, cosmetics. This event brings some new stuff, far cry from the diversity in the loot tables of other events and a lot of old crap.

Edited November 16, 2017 by phoenix1992

[ShogunGunshow]

No sparring/fist zaw parts? No caring.

[BornWithTeeth]

5 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

I am not saying the Bounty format is inherently bad. I am saying that it is still not good. I am pretty sure you enjoy the 100 kuva and 10 million naramon lenses.

 

I was taking them as separate entries. I am self aware enough to shut up about the quality of the rewards from the stand point of "I don't need that, but someone else will". 
But.
Previous events have brought unique mods, Stratus Badges, weapons, cosmetics. This event brings some new stuff, far cry from the diversity in the loot tables of other events and a lot of old crap.

I do actually appreciate having a truckload of Naramon Lenses, funnily enough. I don't need much Kuva, though. I feel that the main Bounty so far is structurally fine.  Get poison. Refine poison. Deliver poison to target. Deal with target's reaction. Rinse. Repeat. Hell, that's structurally more interesting than most past Operations, when you get right down to it. It's a burglary, followed by a one-stage mobile defence, followed by a short escort mission, and then an area-based exterminate. The only real issue with it is the annoying distances involved.

 

About the diversity of rewards, I rather appreciate the fact that it brought back in the Snipetron and Ether Daggers, as that was a recurring complaint from folks. I had both of those weapons, but I advised my clanners to definitely pick up the Snipetron. Neither of those is the main reward for the Operation, though, they're there as a way for people who never got them to actually get those weapons and access the Mastery. Now, the funny thing is that this event does have an event weapon: it's an Infested Zaw. In fact, it's two Infested Zaws, complete with Exodias, and a really beautiful event badge.

[phoenix1992]

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

About the diversity of rewards, I rather appreciate the fact that it brought back in the Snipetron and Ether Daggers, as that was a recurring complaint from folks. I had both of those weapons, but I advised my clanners to definitely pick up the Snipetron. Neither of those is the main reward for the Operation, though, they're there as a way for people who never got them to actually get those weapons and access the Mastery. Now, the funny thing is that this event does have an event weapon: it's an Infested Zaw. In fact, it's two Infested Zaws, complete with Exodias, and a really beautiful event badge.

Which is fine and dandy on it's own.
If we ignore that there is already one way to get old gear that does not include Events or giving mad money to trade chat.

In summary, the event is "fine", but far cry from "as good as previous events".  I don't share the sentiment of OP.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by phoenix1992

[BornWithTeeth]

I’m definitely not saying this Operation is great, like. It’s fine. It’s a perfectly functional Operation, with a rewards system which is substantially less RNG weighted (and hence frustrating) than previous events. It’s not the best thing ever, the bugs and the weird distances are annoying. 

 

The histrionics about how Events in Warframe are being ruined forever are a bit much.

[TARINunit9]

2 hours ago, Raynalle said:

so what? only they can enjoy the game?

So, the devs pay more attention to them. I didn't say it was GOOD, just a logical extrapolation

[Justice_Ember]

I think the idea is in the right place, let me explain:

• Rewards by standing is a good move, works a little better than tokens and it's something we are used to.
• The no leaderboards thing, yeah I would have liked it, honestly it feels like the final nail in the coffin for big clans before the DS rework
• This operation would have been great with a endurance mode (tied to personal/clan score), something like keep killing the infestation while sustaining the mix, so you are forced to squad up and maybe even allow up to  3 drops of mix that add to a timer.
• Finally, the infestation wee kill at the last stage feels way to little for such a massive meteoroid.

That's what I thought.

[IceColdHawk]

All these many and gamebreaking bugs that are still present make me wonder why this event got delayed at all.... It's just 4 short missions in bounty form with no new mechanic whatsoever. Just recycled stuff. Unless they somehow needed all this time for the new zaw parts or the bounty reward change, i can't understand what was happening. At least the bounty reward mechanic change is great. The best thing of this update by far.

But oh boy, i definitely need to get me some playlists ready for the weekend so i can grind my zaw parts without falling asleep. Just after i played 2 bounty missions and found out it's always the same, i couldn't help but think i was dreaming. Incredibly boring and repetitive with also very lacking rewards. The best probably being that newer players can get their hands on the standard snipetron.

Anyway, this event is unfortunately a rushed failure. Now, PoE wasn't a small update that made players be done after 3 days already. This event really didn't need to be rushed like that. And regarding leaderboards; It's just not compatible with this event. You just stockpile points that you can then give away for items. No highscore to be achieved. So it shouldn't be too surprising that we have no leaderboards. I do agree though that we could at least get an operation shown on the profile so we can see and show that we participated in there by showing our highest reached rank or points needed to reach this rank.

[Lyravain]

10 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Yes, Leaderboards are a new concept ^/s

Those are the profile stats, not the leaderboards.