Leeching is too high in bounty

[G4d0]

There are a lot of people leeching while other doing bounty, and it affects overall experience. 

Suggestion: bounty only reward those inside 100-150m from the objective.

[lukinu_u]

I think what need to change is not how afk dont get reward but how fun is the mission.

If people afk, there is a right reason. The missions are repetitive, there is a lot of objectives only limited by time that won't be faster if you're a good player and most of reward are bad or only good the first time (mods, Furax wraith parts, etc...).

[Marine027]

Sadly this would punish others, i had it already that i missed first bounty because laoding tooked ot long so it not counted at all the first phase, i aggre on the range but first could we fix the connection first, the Update is sitll a mess sadly, shouldn't had been released with the host migration still happening also. Best is go solo or with friends or your clan, simple as it is, not the best but only solution so far.

On top i find it annyoing that not evne in Solo you can't pasue the game unlike in other missions and you never know the reason why people might need to afk also, its a dilemma sadly.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Marine027

[shootaman777]

On 11/25/2017 at 2:35 PM, G4d0 said:

There are a lot of people leeching while other doing bounty, and it affects overall experience. 

Suggestion: bounty only reward those inside 100-150m from the objective.

Honestly, I don't understand what your issue is, here. 

If you didn't bring gear to be able to solo the bounties, then you expected to be carried by teammates.  That puts you in the same group of people as the people you are annoyed at for 'leeching', and not being helpful. 

If you did bring gear to solo the bounties, then there should be no issue with people being AFK, because you have the gear to solo it.  And you already planned to do it, anyways. 

As @lukinu_u said, bounties are a boring, undesirable experience.  I can't fault people for trying to get the rewards with as little effort as possible, since that's what we call 'efficient grinding'. 

Regardless of the matchmaking setting, bounties are the same and only need to be completed by one person, even if a squad of 4 queues up for bounties.  Meaning that in a squad of 4 people, 3 are irrelevant and don't even need to do the bounty in the first place.  There's no bonus for the other 3 people contributing, so why should they? 

And if you planned to solo it based on the gear you brought, anyways, then I'll ask again: what's your issue with teammates not helping, when it doesn't help them to help you? 



When the Plains first came out, I queued bounties with my clannies.  We took turns solo'ing the entire bounty while everyone else farmed Plains resources, mined, or fished.  One of us would solo bounty 1, the next would solo bounty 2, the next would solo bounty 3, then one person would solo bounties 4 and 5.  This was, and still is, the most efficient form of Plains grinding, you see. 



If you want to see these leeches disappear, punishing them won't do it.  They'll just bring a god-frame and AFK near the objective while someone else completes it, with your proximity-based idea. 

Make bounties give greater rewards for completing them together.  In both reputation and loot.  Then, a large number of these leeches will disappear. 

Sure, the leeches you mentioned will still be around in some form or another. 
Then again, most of the time they're people with a busy schedule who don't have the time to do the daily grind that Warframe demands to keep up with the new gear, so they have to find a way to passively gain rep and xp.  I can't blame these people for doing what they can to keep up with the grind, especially when it's at nobody's EXPENSE. 
You already planned to solo the bounty if you weren't planning to leech.  So, either stop complaining, or just run them on the solo matchmaking setting. 

[JacketUnHoly]

.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Lluminate

[kgabor]

Sadly ye.

I can solo any bounty but i hit public to help newer players from time to time with the bounties i would do anyways and get a little more focus with the increased spawns, that is if they are actually trying.

But most of the time all i see are teammates leeching at the other side of the map and hosts abusing the leave squad option early denying the rewards from their team because they can't wait 10 seconds for the whole team to reach extraction.

Public bounties are a mess really and it's because of peoples S#&$ behavior for the most part, i don't think an autokick function would be too much to tone down the leeching either.

[DarkRuler2500]

Just make a condition that to be eligible for a bounty reward you need to be within or close by the missions area.
Perhaps 100meter radius from the bounty circle.

[shootaman777]

23 hours ago, Lluminate said:

Lmao this just doesn't even make any sense. What??

Maybe you were planning to work together with a few teammates to make the bounty easier for everyone? Maybe you were planning on playing a support frame to support other people who are suddenly not there? Maybe you were planning on playing the game as the co-op experience it was designed to be?

Like seriously, your whole post is just ?????

And I say this as a person who has done bounties only on Solo from day 1... are you actually trolling or something? That would make more sense.

There is no planned teamwork in a public squad. 

You either bring the gear to be able to solo whatever mission you're running on public matchmaking setting, or expect to get screwed by other people who queued up in public to be carried. 

In a public squad, a squad of equally contributing teammates is a pipe dream.  The only time that it will happen, is if every member of the squad brings the gear to carry a mission, and they all carry it.  If everyone's carrying, everyone's equally contributing. 

It doesn't matter whether or not you planned to work with a few teammates.  If they don't plan to work with you, then you can't force them to. 

This is why public matchmaking is a nightmare, and why I solo everything that I don't get penalised for (a few examples of things that you are penalised for running solo are xp farms, focus farms, resource farms, endless survival runs, fissures, etc). 

 

If you recruited people for a relatively organised squad, and they're not doing their job, then the problem is that player not doing their job. 

Just avoid that player next time, and don't recruit them. 

 

If you were planning on playing a support frame, you'd better make sure beforehand that the people you're supporting are reliable.  Otherwise, you have nobody to blame but yourself when they aren't reliable.  You can't verify this beforehand in a public squad, making playing a support frame solely for supporting other players in a public squad, a very bad decision. 

Then again, every single Warframe in the game, including 'support' Warframes, can carry any mission easily, even in solo.  If you bring a support Warframe that can only support, than you may want to reconsider your build. 

A prime example of this is Trinity.  Many people use her as a Blessing one-trick-pony.  What they ignore is her 3rd ability, Link's, augment - Abating Link.  With 224% power strength, Link will strip the armour entirely off of every enemy affected by Link.  These unarmoured targets are prime targets for Trinity's Energy Vampire, as even with a high power duration, the armourless target can be easily killed by most weapons to receive the full energy amount that would be obtained over EV's full duration, quickly.  This is especially effective against the Grineer and the Corrupted, but this build also does not discriminate in lethality towards any particular faction. 

The build I run on my Trinity Prime to make this work, is:

Energy Siphon.....Power Drift r3

Overextended.....Blind Rage.....Transient Fortitude r8.....Intensify

Narrow Minded.....Primed Flow.....Streamline.....Abating Link

On this build, if the rank is not listed, then it's maxed.  This is a 2 Forma + Exilus Adapter + Orokin Reactor build.  One of those Formas is unnecessary, too, as it's on the Aura slot, to change it from a Vazarin polarity to a Naramon polarity, as Naramon polarity auras are by far the most useful (with the rare exceptions of Steel Charge (if more mod drain is needed) and Growing Power (if more power strength is needed), depending on the build). 

 

Do provide me with some evidence that the game was designed to be a co-op experience.  As I recall, you mentioned solo'ing bounties, right?  That sounds like you're playing the game in a way that it was not designed to be played in, according to you, right?  Does that mean that you're doing something wrong?  No, it doesn't. 

Again, just because you plan on playing it cooperatively, does not mean that your 'team' planned on doing the same.  We're all individual people here, and just because you view the game as a co-op game, doesn't mean that others necessarily view it in the same way.  Nor do said other people have to view it in your way, either.  Everyone's entitled to their opinions, aren't they? 

 

No, actually, I'm not trolling.  To see this, you may want to consider the remainder of my previous post that you selectively did not reply to. 

 

23 hours ago, Lluminate said:

Literally what

You know there's a lot of steps between being useless and being god-mode, right? Even newbies with only MK1 gear can still shoot at things and use their Warframe powers, and that contributes a whole lot more than the person sitting in the corner of the map fishing.

Yeah, that newbie who queued up bounty 5, runs to the objective, and dies over and over again (that you have to keep reviving) while they do no damage to the enemies, was certainly a bigger help than the person who was doing something else on the other side of the Plains.  /s

That newbie drags the team down, while the person sitting in the corner of the map, fishing, doesn't hurt or help the team in any way. 

As such, that person fishing is more beneficial to the team than that newbie you've mentioned.  It's painful to admit, but it's true. 

 

As I see it:

There is a grey area between being useless and being god-mode, yes.  It is in this grey area that a person can try to help the team, while not completely carrying.  A squad of these players can succeed, and with proper support, can excel. 

However, the odds of a squad consisting of individuals in this grey area even forming, are slim at best.  In my experience, you usually get squad mates from both ends of the spectrum, and not many from this grey area, because it's a very small grey area. 

That's because the grey area generally consists of people halfway to their ideal builds that they saw in some Youtube video, leveling between forma, or bringing crap gear but having the game knowledge and game sense to still contribute to the mission's success. 

The useless end of the spectrum of players usually comes from people who never learned how to build their gear properly, or how to pick the right gear to build, thanks to the piss poor tutorial/introduction to the game that they receive upon starting.  And the junctions usually serve as a frustration for newer players, rather than as a way to teach newer players how to play the game.  Because the junctions just say 'do x', without explaining the best way to do x.  Then again, I can't fault DE for doing nothing to improve the new player experience, since many newer players would leave the game if they knew how much of a grindfest/statistics headache they were in for after they got hooked on it, and that is wasn't just a parkour space ninja shoot-'n-slash-'em-up game. 

The god-mode players will either carry your public mission, will be playing solo, or will be in an organised squad.  These people know what they're doing, so they'll be in the most efficient of the 3 options. 

 

23 hours ago, Lluminate said:

Yeah, that's fine when it's communicated and a premade group like you did with your clanmates. If somebody in a pub is hiding in a corner doing nothing for "easy grinding", that's not an excuse and I'd report them.

You mean Ember and Equinox, lol. Sure but at least they would be partially helping by killing things, and would still have to move from objective to objective. They would not be able to be fully AFK like they can be now.

I used what I did with my clannies as an example of how it could work, not to say that there is some 'right way' to do it. 

There is no such thing as an excuse, by the way.  Only reasons. 

First off, what the players that you're talking about are doing, requires no excuse.  Because they're not doing anything wrong or against any rules.  If/when DE sees fit to punish them after actually creating a rule against what they're doing, then DE is free to do so, since they have the final say in the matter.  Right now, there's no reason to report them, other than that you don't like them and what they're doing.  There's no rule against being useless, after all. 

 

I don't mean Ember and Equinox.  I mean Ivara/Loki for invisibility, Limbo for self-rifting, Wukong for Defy, Oberon for Renewal/Iron Renewal/Phoenix Renewal combo with Rage/Hunter Adrenaline as an energy source, etc.  These people will still fully AFK just as they do now, but with frames that can do it without ever being punished/nuked for it.  Limbo is the prime candidate for this. 

Which is why the suggestion of the OP's does not work.  Because people will just AFK at the objective and the same thing will happen, anyways. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by shootaman777

[Gilmaesh]

Best is when you have the prisoner bounty and it goes to the afk guy 1.5km away. Nice DE, punishing people playing...

A lot of people also search for whips or mine / fish. My solution would be that those would be share to the group, that way people who actually like to do those things contribute to the whole party. Because at the moment they get the bounty rewards for free + their own loot.

And i would make the bounty reward a drop that you have to collect. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Gilmaesh

[Wiergate]

On 11/29/2017 at 11:32 PM, shootaman777 said:

Again, just because you plan on playing it cooperatively, does not mean that your 'team' planned on doing the same.  We're all individual people here, and just because you view the game as a co-op game, doesn't mean that others necessarily view it in the same way. 

By joining a squad, a key element in a cooperative game, they have given an implicit understanding that they are indeed prepared to view that mission as a collective undertaking. 
This is not complicated.

Unless:

 

On 11/29/2017 at 11:32 PM, shootaman777 said:

First off, what the players that you're talking about are doing, requires no excuse.  Because they're not doing anything wrong or against any rules.

 

...they subscribe to a budget version of moral nihilism based entirely on self-interest. You needed a whole page to explain and attempt to justify something which in itself requires no justification since it's merely a primitive version of motivational externalism and amorality?

MMOs, man, it's the strangest of worlds.

[Grave.Knight]

100-150m? No. No. Certain missions (capture) I'll do the dragoon thing and rush the objective, especially when it's some BS distance away (had it spawn 1200 meters away once). Flew in at full speed and captured the target while the other three were relatively close to the gate. I don't want to wait around near the objective for several minutes while everyone gets in close just to do a capture.

[Shockwave-]

On 11/25/2017 at 2:35 PM, G4d0 said:

There are a lot of people leeching while other doing bounty, and it affects overall experience. 

Suggestion: bounty only reward those inside 100-150m from the objective.

I'm of two minds about this. I think this should be implemented in any PUBLIC mission, but not in INVITE ONLY or FRIENDS ONLY mission.

Reason is that when i do public bounties this is how it should be, but if 4 friends get together and 2 hate fishing and 2 hate bounties and you all agree to share, two can go fish/mine while others do the bounties, then you can even hang out and mine/fish while the closest one does the pop up bounties. Then you share stuff after. I've done this a number of times.

If fact I think most ant AFK freatures should be limited to teams created in the PUBLIC mode to allow friends only teams to do what they want.

 

Also that might force people to use AW charges to keep up with others using AW charges especially for capture or prisoner that can end before you can run there.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Shockwave-

[Foefaller]

Here's my solution:

Ore nodes and Fish don't spawn until after the bounty is done.

95% of these leechers aren't actually doing "nothing," they're mining or fishing or maybe hunting for Cetus Wisps instead of the bounty. If you made it impossible to do those things while the bounty is ongoing, then the biggest incentive to not do the bounty goes away.

[shootaman777]

19 hours ago, Wiergate said:

By joining a squad, a key element in a cooperative game, they have given an implicit understanding that they are indeed prepared to view that mission as a collective undertaking. 
This is not complicated.

You may think this while joining a squad, but that does not mean that everyone else thinks it while joining a squad.  You're entitled to your opinion of what a squad is, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is/has to be of the same mindset. 

 

19 hours ago, Wiergate said:

...they subscribe to a budget version of moral nihilism based entirely on self-interest. You needed a whole page to explain and attempt to justify something which in itself requires no justification since it's merely a primitive version of motivational externalism and amorality?

MMOs, man, it's the strangest of worlds.

I didn't need a whole page to justify whatever you thought I was trying to justify, because I wasn't trying to justify anything.  I made a comment in response to the OP, someone responded to my comment, and I then replied to their reply.  There was no proof/justification, just a point-by-point response. 

 

11 hours ago, Foefaller said:

Here's my solution:

Ore nodes and Fish don't spawn until after the bounty is done.

95% of these leechers aren't actually doing "nothing," they're mining or fishing or maybe hunting for Cetus Wisps instead of the bounty. If you made it impossible to do those things while the bounty is ongoing, then the biggest incentive to not do the bounty goes away.

All this change will do is make these same people fully AFK, instead of actively gaining Plains resources in the meantime.  Nothing will change due to it, other than someone putting on a movie while someone else does the bounty. 

[Foefaller]

7 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

All this change will do is make these same people fully AFK, instead of actively gaining Plains resources in the meantime.  Nothing will change due to it, other than someone putting on a movie while someone else does the bounty. 

...Which is why every other mission in the game is also crazy full of leechers standing in one spot AFK right?

/sarcasm

I'm sorry, but that simply doesn't sync up with how people play the rest of the game. The vast majority of people play the mission, even if they came in expecting to be carried. Mainly because sitting around doing nothing isn't fun, nor is it more rewarding than doing something.

And for the inevitable examples; Yes, there are people who leech xp farming maps. But it's so they can get shared xp to level up gear they don't want to actually use. You're not going to get any of that if your standing at the gates to Cetus while everyone else is off doing bounties (and if they're following around just to sit afk at the bounty spot, then they are contributing: as bullet bait). As for Spy Sorties, considering the thin margin for error, in most cases I don't want them to do any of the rooms if they think they're likely to fail.

If you're leeching for standing, you can get waaay more standing a lot faster doing night fishing, and as bounties and fishing/mining share the same daily cap, you can't say it's for extra standing beyond the cap like for Syndicate alerts and pickups.

If you're leeching for the bounty rewards, I again refer to my 4+ years of experience in playing this game, and say that even when it's a Gift of the Lotus where there is 0 chance of failure and the only thing everyone there is for the free tater at the end, everybody tries to participate in the mission. Why? because unlike xp farms where allied kills means XP to stuff you don't want to use, and Spy Sorties where screwing up means everyone has to start over, there is no tangible benefit not to.

Will it stop every leecher everywhere? No, there will always be lazy silly geese who do that kind of crap. But if you strip away any in-game benefit to not helping on the bounty, then a lot of those currently leeching will start working on the bounty, or at least do their fishing on their own free roam map and not try to con people in finishing bounties on the side.

[shootaman777]

2 hours ago, Foefaller said:

...Which is why every other mission in the game is also crazy full of leechers standing in one spot AFK right?

/sarcasm

I'm sorry, but that simply doesn't sync up with how people play the rest of the game. The vast majority of people play the mission, even if they came in expecting to be carried. Mainly because sitting around doing nothing isn't fun, nor is it more rewarding than doing something.

And for the inevitable examples; Yes, there are people who leech xp farming maps. But it's so they can get shared xp to level up gear they don't want to actually use. You're not going to get any of that if your standing at the gates to Cetus while everyone else is off doing bounties (and if they're following around just to sit afk at the bounty spot, then they are contributing: as bullet bait). As for Spy Sorties, considering the thin margin for error, in most cases I don't want them to do any of the rooms if they think they're likely to fail.

If you're leeching for standing, you can get waaay more standing a lot faster doing night fishing, and as bounties and fishing/mining share the same daily cap, you can't say it's for extra standing beyond the cap like for Syndicate alerts and pickups.

If you're leeching for the bounty rewards, I again refer to my 4+ years of experience in playing this game, and say that even when it's a Gift of the Lotus where there is 0 chance of failure and the only thing everyone there is for the free tater at the end, everybody tries to participate in the mission. Why? because unlike xp farms where allied kills means XP to stuff you don't want to use, and Spy Sorties where screwing up means everyone has to start over, there is no tangible benefit not to.

Will it stop every leecher everywhere? No, there will always be lazy silly geese who do that kind of crap. But if you strip away any in-game benefit to not helping on the bounty, then a lot of those currently leeching will start working on the bounty, or at least do their fishing on their own free roam map and not try to con people in finishing bounties on the side.

I've been playing this game since 2013.  If you want to play the experience card ("I again refer to my 4+ years of experience in playing this game"), I'll do the same. 

First of all, bounties have not existed for 4 years.  So your 4 years of experience doesn't apply very well to bounties. 

 

You're comparing apples to oranges. 

 

There are several notable differences between xp farm leeching, spy sortie leeching, GotL leeching, and bounty AFK'ing. 

 

In an xp farm, people bring unleveled gear.  It's expected that people may not be able to fully contribute, since the gear they bring to the game has few mods on it, and it cannot do much.  A large amount of players who participate in xp farms take this approach to it, and it's an integral part of the farm.  What's the point of farming xp if it's not going to use leveling something up, after all?  If 4 players in the xp farm take this approach to it, then it does not work, as the decreased rate of killing due to unleveled gear will decrease the rate at which they gain xp.  But as long as one person has maxed gear that can carry the mission, this approach works.  However, even if teammates are useless in an xp farm, they're still NECESSARY, because the amount of enemy spawns, and as such the amount of xp that can be gained, is based on the amount of players in a given squad.  So, you take what you can get. 

 

Spy sortie leeching is entirely irrelevant, and a non-issue.  So many players in public matchmaking in spy sorties fail the vaults, anyways.  The AFK people that you mentioned contribute more to the team than the people who would fail the mission, so I'd take an AFK in my squad instead of someone who's in over their head, any day.  Or, better yet, I'll continue doing what I always do, and solo every spy sortie, because teammates are UNNECESSARY in spy sorties, anyways. 

 

Contrary to what you've seen, I've seen several leeches in GotL missions.  They didn't impact the mission positively or negatively either way, so I wouldn't say it's a problem.  Even the ones who AFK leeched didn't impact the mission at all, since teammates are UNNECESSARY in GotL missions. 

 

Bounties are solo-oriented, boring, repetitive missions that don't change notably in difficulty or mission requirement based on the amount of players in a squad.  Only one person needs to complete them for everyone to receive the bounty rewards of items and Ostron rep.  And those two rewards are the only reason that people do bounties, anyways.  In other words, since only one person needs to do them to obtain the rewards, teammates are UNNECESSARY.  Which is why I either solo bounties, or do bounty-shares, where myself and a group of people take turns solo'ing bounties while everyone else fishes/mines/resource farms.  Because there's no point in having teammates for bounties.  If you demand to have teammates in a mission where teammates are irrelevant, and they gain nothing from helping you, then why do you expect them to help you?  The AFK'er you mentioned before can take care of some pressing responsibility, gain some Plains resources, watch a movie, and generally enjoy the time spent in the bounty more than if they had participated in it.  Plus, as long as one person completes the bounty, it doesn't matter if they were AFK or not, because everyone gets the rewards. 

"If you're leeching for standing", then AFK'ing is the best way to do it.  The highest reward with the least effort, is the most efficient grind.  Are you telling me that AFK'ing in a bounty takes more effort than fishing to gain that reputation?  The whole benefit of AFK'ing, is that you can take care of other things, even non-game related, while doing so.  It's like passively gaining reputation by clicking a few keys every 10 minutes or so.  It doesn't matter if you're not getting it as fast as possible- the point is that you're getting it with no effort, and no wasted time.  Because even if you were helping out with the bounty in that time, it's not like you would've received anything extra for your trouble. 

"If you're leeching for the bounty rewards", then I'll say the same thing. 

 

Now, here's where I'll draw from my years of experience in Warframe, for an example of the same thing that is happening now: Operation: Rathuum. 

Operation: Rathuum was the introduction of Rathuum into Warframe, and the update of the Kela De Thaym boss fight. 

However, during the event, the amount of Judgment Points that you needed to do a Kela De Thaym assassinate was inanely high, and each arena node offered fewer Judgment Points per run.  Meaning that, if you wanted to farm event exclusive mods from Kela De Thaym, or to farm rare stances from Rathuum, you had to do a metric fuckton of Rathuum. 

Rathuum, at that point, was like bounties- one person could easily solo it in a squad of 4.  Everyone got the rewards for victory as long as the Tenno won the round of Rathuum.  Didn't matter who contributed or participated in the missions itself.  Nobody gained anything extra for actually participating in the round of Rathuum, either. 

As such, there were so many AFK's droning those Rathuum missions, that it was not impossible to find a squad of 4 AFK's who would lose the mission simply because they were all AFK.  Because nobody wanted to run the same Rathuum mission, after the 50th time.  And they were generally rewarded by their teammates' victory by being AFK, so why should they participate?  They shouldn't, because there was no incentive to.  It was just another mind-numbingly boring grind, like the recent Operation: Plague Star.  Just like bounties. 

 

As you said before:

"I'm sorry, but that simply doesn't sync up with how people play the rest of the game. The vast majority of people play the mission, even if they came in expecting to be carried. Mainly because sitting around doing nothing isn't fun, nor is it more rewarding than doing something."

The problem, is that sitting around doing nothing is EQUALLY REWARDING to doing something, especially in missions where end-of-mission rewards are the ones being grinded, as opposed to mid-mission rewards such as xp and resources. 

Now, there are three ways to go about this.  DE can either:

a) leave things as-is. 

b) punish AFK'ing/make it harder to do.  In that case, players will just find the next easiest way to semi-AFK, potentially with movement macros to avoid the AFK timer.  As long as it's easier and just as rewarding as playing the game, people will find ways to do it.  However, this brings a larger issue to light: how players are being forced into boring, repetitive RNG grinds as the only way to obtain the gear they want, that are so boring and repetitive that they would rather AFK or put effort into AFK'ing to avoid the grind.  Which means that the problem is DE's flawed system, not the players using it as effectively as possible towards their own ends.  So, I'm not sure which they would have to fix first, but I'd say that it should be their flawed system. 

c) fix their flawed system, by rewarding everyone for working together with teammates to complete their mission.  And I don't mean a band-aid 1.25x affinity multiplier or something.  I mean a better chance at a desired reward, and/or potentially a higher quantity of an obtained reward/more rolls for rewards from the mission, etc.  Whether or not participation took place would be determined from mission stats such as kills, damage taken/dealt, time near objective, specific actions taken, etc.  It would also vary by mission. 

 

Option c) comes from an old memory of how eager everyone was to participate in Void Sabotage missions back when void keys were a thing, because they dropped more prime parts per effort/key expended to find hidden caches, and normally the mission was split with 3 players searching for caches while 1 player solo'd the objective.  When you said 'h t1/2/3/4sabo' in recruiting chat, you'd sometimes get up to 20-30 pm's asking to join, of people who were always willing to fully participate in the mission, because it was in theirs and everyone else's best interests to participate in order to get larger quantities of prime items, faster. 

This held true even after the maximum amount of prime drops from Void Sabotage was nerfed from 4 to 2. 

And in all my time of Void Sabotage, including post-nerf of prime drops, I never once saw an AFK leech.  Imagine that, eh? 

 

Now, even after the amount of drops from bounties was increased, there was still no added reward to play bounties as a team.  And that is why AFK leeching is still rampant in bounties.  Because it's still just as rewarding to not participate, via AFK leeching.  Increased drops just rewards these leeches even more.  While the players actually doing the bounties are sitting on their high horses and raging at the AFK leeches, the AFK leeches get the last laugh, since they didn't have to do anything to get their rewards.  Instead of pitting these players against each other by adding anti-AFK measures or easily abusable 'vote to kick' options, or even just by leaving things as-is, DE should make playing the mission actually rewarding.  It removes the toxicity and rewards everyone.  A win-win, all around. 

[Foefaller]

Okay, wall o' text, time for response.

First, good to hear you've been playing the game as long as I have!

Second, I do think I can apply past experience to bounties, because it informs me on what other Warframe players tend to do given the reward structure. And that experience tells me than the only places where leeching is truly rampant- where it's not a once in a while thing but a regular, ever-present occurrence- is when there is a tangible benefit to leeching. Yes, you can get the same end-of-mission reward idly following along than actually participating, but people in my experience tend to participate the vast majority of the time. Maybe it's to embrace the god-mode of bringing end-game gear to a regular alert, or to see if they can get the most kills, or because it seems better to spend your time playing than alt-tabbing and try and find something you can do in the 10-15 minutes the mission takes. I don't know why, I just know that Leechers outside of affinity farm missions stand out to me because they are so rare.

With affinity leeching, the tangible benefit comes from the fact you can take advantage of affinity sharing to level junk weapons from 0-30 without using them. Since killing enemies with good/leveled weapons or WF powers would actually reduce the affinity you gained from weapons you're trying to level without using, the best way to level them becomes doing nothing other than making sure you're in affinity range of those doing all the killing.

With bounties, the tangible benefit is that while someone else is doing the bounty, you can mine, fish, or whatever for the resources you want or need for Ostron Rep, and still get all the rewards and standing for the bounty by letting the rubes do it. Remove that ability, you remove that benefit. Yes, there are still going to be people who AFK while everyone's running around, for all the possible reasons you list, I'm not saying that this is the perfect fix to end leeching on the Plains forever (apologies if it sounded like I did). I understand that it's also going to ruin it for groups that implicitly form on the idea that everyone's going to do their own thing while the poor sod who's closest to the current objective has to do the bounty.

I also agree that the absolute best way would be to restructure mission would to give incentives to participate, not penalties. Maybe you could have concurrent bounty objectives when there is more than one player, like how defection you get two groups at a time when you're not alone? Finish the bounty faster and/or get extra shot at rewards? I have no idea whether that's even feasible with what they have doing bounties, but part of logic behind my idea is that stopping fish from spawning while the bounty is ongoing is probably a lot easier to implement than trying to figure out how to make multiple ongoing bounty objectives work.

P.S. I don't recall leechers for Rathuum. Not saying it never happened, but it just wasn't something that I ever saw. Then again, I got Medi-Ray on something like my second or third Kayla attempt, and it was the only mod I really wanted so I was able to quit it's horribleness about halfway through.

P.P.S. Based on your thoughts on idea b.), you seem to be under the impression that the majority of people see Warframe as a grindy unfun slog that they would rather AFK to get what they want than actually play it? Grindy? No doubt about it. Unfun slog? That's a matter of opinion, and I respectfully disagree, and I'd argue based on the game's Steam stats there are at least 60k people who would agree with me.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Foefaller

[GinKenshin]

On 11/25/2017 at 10:47 PM, lukinu_u said:

I think what need to change is not how afk dont get reward but how fun is the mission.

If people afk, there is a right reason. The missions are repetitive, there is a lot of objectives only limited by time that won't be faster if you're a good player and most of reward are bad or only good the first time (mods, Furax wraith parts, etc...).

  I don’t think that is the main reason why tbh. The reason is because they can do Poe farming while someone else is doing the bounties, thus hitting 2 birds with 1 stone 

 

 or maybe they’re just lazy f*ckers >.> 

[shootaman777]

43 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

Okay, wall o' text, time for response.

First, good to hear you've been playing the game as long as I have!

Second, I do think I can apply past experience to bounties, because it informs me on what other Warframe players tend to do given the reward structure. And that experience tells me than the only places where leeching is truly rampant- where it's not a once in a while thing but a regular, ever-present occurrence- is when there is a tangible benefit to leeching. Yes, you can get the same end-of-mission reward idly following along than actually participating, but people in my experience tend to participate the vast majority of the time. Maybe it's to embrace the god-mode of bringing end-game gear to a regular alert, or to see if they can get the most kills, or because it seems better to spend your time playing than alt-tabbing and try and find something you can do in the 10-15 minutes the mission takes.

With affinity leeching, the tangible benefit comes from the fact you can take advantage of affinity sharing to level junk weapons from 0-30 without using them. Since killing enemies with good/leveled weapons or WF powers would actually reduce the affinity you gained from weapons you're trying to level without using, the best way to level them becomes doing nothing other than making sure you're in affinity range of those doing all the killing.

Agreed.  Also, sorry about the wall 'o text, I'm a recovering wall 'o textaholic.  Compared to the length of what I usually write in responses, that response and this one are relatively short. 

43 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

With bounties, the tangible benefit is that while someone else is doing the bounty, you can mine, fish, or whatever for the resources you want or need for Ostron Rep, and still get all the rewards and standing for the bounty by letting the rubes do it. Remove that ability, you remove that benefit. Yes, there are still going to be people who AFK while everyone's running around, for all the possible reasons you list, I'm not saying that this is the perfect fix to end leeching on the Plains forever (apologies if it sounded like I did). I understand that it's also going to ruin it for groups that implicitly form on the idea that everyone's going to do their own thing while the poor sod who's closest to the current objective has to do the bounty.

Fair enough. 

Though I'd disagree with the benefit of not participating in the bounty while someone else does it, being that you can do other Plains activities in the meantime.  I mean, at that point, that player could just queue up in solo and do the same thing without the bounties going.  It's adding the bounty rewards to fishing/mining/resource farming that's going on here, not the other way around. 

A simple solution to keep relatively everyone happy is to make it so fish do not spawn while a bounty is active, as you mentioned below.  The reason that I say that only fish should not spawn, is that mining and Plains resource farming can take place normally during a bounty.  Fishing is not something that normally occurs during a bounty.  Additionally, mining nodes should only spawn in a given radius around and between objectives. 

However, the part about this change that would keep everyone happy, is that it would only take place in Public bounty matchmaking.  If a bounty is queued up in Friends Only or Invite Only, everything on the Plains would spawn normally.  This way, the people who organise a bountyshare in advance would not be punished. 

43 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

I also agree that the absolute best way would be to restructure mission would to give incentives to participate, not penalties. Maybe you could have concurrent bounty objectives when there is more than one player, like how defection you get two groups at a time when you're not alone? Finish the bounty faster and/or get extra shot at rewards? I have no idea whether that's even feasible with what they have doing bounties, but part of logic behind my idea is that stopping fish from spawning while the bounty is ongoing is probably a lot easier to implement than trying to figure out how to make multiple ongoing bounty objectives work.

Well, I would just keep the multiple ongoing bounty objectives optional, in that case.  Finishing the bounty faster is irrelevant when it's a Liberation or Vault Defense stage, however, since those stages cannot be sped up. 

I'd mention some of the ideas I've had for bounties in that regard, but they're numerous and I'm still working on the details.  I'm working on a top-down Bounty Rework thread, and I'd prefer to only have to type them once, in context, and work them out there. 

 

43 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

P.S. I don't recall leechers for Rathuum. Not saying it never happened, but it just wasn't something that I ever saw. Then again, I got Medi-Ray on something like my second or third Kayla attempt, and it was the only mod I really wanted so I was able to quit it's horribleness about halfway through.

P.P.S. Based on your thoughts on idea b.), you seem to be under the impression that the majority of people see Warframe as a grindy unfun slog that they would rather AFK to get what they want than actually play it? Grindy? No doubt about it. Unfun slog? That's a matter of opinion, and I respectfully disagree, and I'd argue there are about 60k people who would agree with me.

Lucky you, on that Rathuum experience. 

Oh, I wasn't implying any views of Warframe as a whole by what I mentioned before.  But what you just mentioned, "a grindy unfun slog", is certainly what I think of bounties.  And from what I've read on the forums, quite a large number of players agree on that.  As an explanation of why, speaking for myself here, I'll just say this:

A while back, I began to take on the task of building and storing every possible Zaw combination.  Since day 1 of the Plains, I've been grinding bounties nonstop daily on solo, up until Operation: Plague Star came around.  I was already tired of how utterly boring and repetitive bounties are, and then came along Operation: Plague Star, an event that re-used bounties that I'm already well-beyond bored of, re-skinned Lephantis as a 'new boss', and had no competitive or endurance option whatsoever to it, so you could only obtain very small, set amounts of event rewards at a time, by doing the same thing over and over again.  But the reward pool was great, and I did plan to obtain every combination of Zaw, which did entail farming 128 of each plague Zaw piece from the event.  So, I tried to accomplish this, and did at least around 70 runs of it.  But, in the end, I couldn't do it, because the event was so boring and repetitive that I began to fall asleep during the runs, no matter how awake I was, due to how boring they were.  I haven't touched the event or any Cetus bounties, ever since that point, because I won't put myself through the boring waste of a grind that is bounties. 

Which leads me to why I'm making a bounty rework thread, as I mentioned previously.  As a person who has done enough of them to refuse to do any more of them. 

Which is where my sympathy for leeches of any sort in bounties comes from. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by shootaman777

[Wiergate]

11 hours ago, shootaman777 said:

c) fix their flawed system, by rewarding everyone for working together with teammates to complete their mission

If you'd have included this line of reasoning in your previous posts rather than a 'sympathy for leeches' tangent which was entirely dependent on it for context...

No matter, hope to see that bounty rework thread as soon as you're able, it's sorely needed.