For the love of all that is fun, make weapon swapping faster already

[tnccs215]

On 01/12/2017 at 4:56 PM, Twellve said:

In my opinion, swapping weapons shouldn't be that fast. Imagine if we can swap weapons just like in Counter Strike or any other streamline FPS, we'll be looking like a magician! (poof! here goes my semi-auto pistol! then poof! here goes my very very big sword! and poof again! say hello to my little friend! paw paw paw... reload, jumping2, switch! knifing2 )

That would look bad I say.

Why not add a weapon switching feature that adds to the combat? Like, we can chain from quick melee, to equip melee weapon. So that when we chain it like so, a better animation plays, and it also has a damaging area to the enemy.

Yeah it would look terribly unrealistic for my newly-materialized-from-nowhere space bow that shoots bombs to be equipped too fast. 

[TheGrimCorsair]

Streamlined Form is right up your alley if you're looking for weapon swapping with only a tiny cost to equip.

[Fallen_Echo]

5 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Yeah it would look terribly unrealistic for my newly-materialized-from-nowhere space bow that shoots bombs to be equipped too fast. 

And dont forget about instantly using greatswords while holding the BFG of warframe in your hands.

[tnccs215]

14 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

And dont forget about instantly using greatswords while holding the BFG of warframe in your hands.

Which hits stuff further away than its actual length if you put a card on it

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Which hits stuff further away than its actual length if you put a card on it

While also having an endless supply of toxic gas stored somewhere in the blade to be released when you hit an enemy

[tnccs215]

12 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

While also having an endless supply of toxic gas stored somewhere in the blade to be released when you hit an enemy

And that randomly hit critically even if you don't actually hit a sensible body part. 

And hitting those spots increases your muscle speed if you put a card on the weapon. Or not. 

Such realism wow. 

[Twellve]

10 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

And that randomly hit critically even if you don't actually hit a sensible body part. 

And hitting those spots increases your muscle speed if you put a card on the weapon. Or not. 

Such realism wow. 

I laughed way too hard from seeing the replies above. lol

[GeoffFromAccounting]

11 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

And that randomly hit critically even if you don't actually hit a sensible body part. 

And hitting those spots increases your muscle speed if you put a card on the weapon. Or not. 

Such realism wow. 

Duh, everyone knows that Warframe is a tactical space shooter focused on realism /s

On that front though, and on a more serious note, weapon swapping is faster in literally every single game I've played. This includes more realistic combat games such as Insurgency. So why is it that a trained soldier can swap weapons faster than a mystical void powered space ninja from the future?

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, Ninjaboy00 said:

Duh, everyone knows that Warframe is a tactical space shooter focused on realism /s

On that front though, and on a more serious note, weapon swapping is faster in literally every single game I've played. This includes more realistic combat games such as Insurgency. So why is it that a trained soldier can swap weapons faster than a mystical void powered space ninja from the future?

Low battery power? Thats why we cant start a mission with full energy and why we swap soo slow our batteries are depleted and due to some reaplacement.

 

[Newnight]

11 hours ago, Ninjaboy00 said:

Duh, everyone knows that Warframe is a tactical space shooter focused on realism /s

On that front though, and on a more serious note, weapon swapping is faster in literally every single game I've played. This includes more realistic combat games such as Insurgency. So why is it that a trained soldier can swap weapons faster than a mystical void powered space ninja from the future?

Well maybe your frame should cut some eye holes so it actually can grab its weapon! It so slow cause theyre fumbling when they try.

[Luther848]

11 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Low battery power? Thats why we cant start a mission with full energy and why we swap soo slow our batteries are depleted and due to some reaplacement.

 

Interesting fact Unspent Modding points will give your frame more starting energy. 5 energy for each unspent point.

[Fallen_Echo]

12 hours ago, Newnight said:

Well maybe your frame should cut some eye holes so it actually can grab its weapon! It so slow cause theyre fumbling when they try.

But mag prime has an eye!

Or is it a socket like the one on the scluptures?

[DrakorLP]

Am 29.11.2017 um 18:26 schrieb ShiraHagane:

It's honestly ridiculous how slow weapon swapping is, and how nothing has been done about it for the years we've been complaining about it.

And please, don't tell me to just put the mods on, there are enough mandatory mods like serration, split chamber, Crit mods, and elementals, you shouldn't have to use up 3 mod slots across all your weapons to have a USABLE weapon swap rate.

Totaly want this too and I dont want to change it if I know I could deal more dmg with other mods. It just destroys the flow and make u feel less Ninja.

[Fukushu]

I think the worst part about how slow and flawed weapon swapping for the player is how DE allows our enemies to instantly swap their weapons while also maintaining their flow of combat.

The easiest example that comes to mind for me is the Tusk Heavy Gunner with her Grattler and Kohmak: At long ranges, she'll pelt you with constant Grattler fire, which can be annoying on its own, but if you get within... probably five to ten feet of her, *VWORP*, a flash of blue energy in her hands and she's immediately firing at you with a fully spooled Kohmak. Enemies going through with their special attacks (Heavy Unit ground slams for the Grineer despite being interupted, Corpus Techs breaking out of stun locks to launch a Shield Osprey) and Eximus Units not needing to follow the same line of sight rules DE forces us to are annoying enough as is, but giving enemies the ability to instantly swap weapons while our Warframes need to slowly make sure they put everything back exactly where it belongs only makes it worse.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Fukushu
Needed to fix some grammar

[Acos]

Long drawn out conversations aside, I'd really prefer switch speed to be near instant. It would improve my enjoyment of the game dramatically, and would open up weapon synergies quite a bit as well. I'd prefer any mods related to it to just do something else (bonus damage for 8s after switching a weapon or something like that.) 

[Ardhanarishvara]

Sorry for taking so long to reply.

Also, further apologies for going off on such a tangential rant by the end of the post. Regardless of the words that I use, I would like to make it clear that it is not my intent to insult or offend anyone, or to... de-legitimize their views. These are simply my own interpretations of the game, and I would hope only be viewed as such, even if the tone comes off as frustrated or ranty.

On 11/29/2017 at 4:55 PM, tnccs215 said:

But you kinda did. You connected their supposed lack of skill to their discomfort, and used that to deligitimize the position you are opposing. I do not exclude the possibility that I misread you, but frankly, it seemed the only possible interpretation.

No, see, I connected their lack of capability to their discomfort. That's different from skill. Skill is based on top of capabilities, or, rather, natural affinities. Affinities are the basis upon which capability, learning, practice, and finally skill are built. If a natural affinity is lacking, then the degree to which the rest can build upon that is as well - you can only shore up your weaknesses so much. Natural affinities determine personality, inclinations towards actions, inclinations towards entertainment, and how people feel about any particular detail of anything they're looking at. Video games have... well, to say they have a lot of details would be an understatement.

What I am saying is that some people not being inclined towards slower swapping speeds shouldn't be considered a legitimate argument, at least, not all on its own, to argue for a change to systems that either the majority simply don't care about or ignore, or another subset of people like myself might actually enjoy. Now, you make additional arguments in your post which I am more inclined to agree with, to which I react more amicably towards seeing such a change as beneficial to people that might have negative affinities towards slower weapon swapping

No part of my reasoning looks at individual skill at all, because individual skill has no place in this debate. At least, not from where I'm standing, though others may see it differently.

On 11/29/2017 at 4:55 PM, tnccs215 said:

And the truth is that, you have no proof whatsoever that the people who don't want the change are indeed a majority.

And I would never argue as such. The world isn't so black and white. What I argue is that the vast majority of people... simply don't care, or have adjusted and no longer mind. I think that the people who actively do want the change are probably more numerous than the people who actively do not, if only because I reason that there are always more people that want things to be easier than there are people who want things to be harder, but I think both of them are so small compared to the uncaring majority that it becomes a moot point because they more-or-less balance out when you weigh the three out like that. Which I would use as an argument to leave things more as is, simply because the time, effort and thought that goes into questioning "How would our game feel if we made this change? Could it present balance issues? What about the people who like wondering if they should use Streamlined Form?" then creating a splinter version of the game for testing that value extensively... could otherwise be put into more important issues.

You and I and everyone else in this thread spend way, way, way too much time thinking about stuff like this, so it can be frustrating when we come to what seems like a natural conclusion to either of us and the developers haven't even glanced at it. But I suppose that's getting off topic slightly.

 

On 11/29/2017 at 4:55 PM, tnccs215 said:

Well, the developers vision, of course (limited by player demand, for all the good and bad that brings), a vision that we can infer from the changes that they introduce as the vision and themselves mature. And judging from exactly that, from every ability that influences exclusively enemies becoming recastable (such as Chaos), with Parkour 2.0 (which, despite removing speed, introduced unprecedented amounts of agility), with the fact they made Warframe-operator transition as fast and seamless as possible with no negative "punishments" such as power deactivation despite there being precedence for that (coff coff Equinox), hell with their scheduled removal of the almost unnoticeable delay between pressing shift and starting to run, it becomes undeniable that the devs aim to make every frame more and more fluid to use, diminishing any form of struggle between the player and the avatar.

This is a good point. A very good point. But it also a general point and I'd argue it's weaker when applying to this particular discussion. I'd even argue that there's already fluidity. That it's there in the quick-melee.

My stance still largely comes down to the fact that, by-and-large, I simply don't see secondaries as being capable of producing any significant dynamism as has been mentioned to justify the change. They are a backup weapon. They are something you grab when you fall to the floor. They are something you hand off to the escort target. They are something that you get forced to with Volt's Riot Shield. They are something that gets dual wielding with melee. Treating them as if they have the same value as a primary weapon is inherently flawed from that position, and ergo any argument for increasing holster speed is inherently weakened as a result from the very beginning, because we already have immediate access to the weapon type that rivals primaries, albeit to a lesser degree, I admit.

When they do have the killing power of a primary, they lack the staying power. When they do have the staying power, they lack the killing power. This is the case with the vast majority of secondary weapons in Warframe. They are simply not on the same league unless you're using factors outside of the weapon to shore that up, like Carrier's Ammo Case or Warframe passives and abilities. The vast majority of players focus more on primary or melee, which is just as well because you have access to melee at any time. You can argue that some individual secondaries can outpace some individual primaries, but that typically comes down to an inherent difference in weapon expectations more than anything, or just poor general balancing.

This is especially weird to me because, even though everyone has access to melee at all times, the vast majority of people act like Limbo using Stasis + Cataclysm is the end of the world. Where's the dynamism then?

On 11/29/2017 at 4:55 PM, tnccs215 said:

The truth is that, some challenges prevent the existence of others. When you task the player with struggling with their character limitations, you remove the possibility of introducing more environmental ones. And that is perfectly fine - but it is simply, clearly not the direction Warframe is meant to be going to, where the player has full and total control over the Warframe, with barely any punishments and limitations - so that they can focus, fully and completely, on annihilating enemies, and surviving them.

 

Ah, see, here's the thing. You can't say that's the direction Warframe is meant to be going to. Only the developers can. We can only guess as to their intentions, their vision. We can make suggestions along the way, but it's clear that the developers, while wanting things to be more fluid, also have issues with the unrestrained power fantasy when it gets too over the top. Why do you think they were designing enemies that you actually have to aim at specific parts just to be able to hurt them? Why do you think they make enemies that ignore or deactivate abilities, or otherwise hurt your energy? Because these are things that also hurt the total fluidity that you seem to think that Warframe is meant to go towards. I'm not defending those things in any way, but it clearly points towards a more middle-of-the-road approach towards Warframe design. Not every design decision has to apply equally to everything. There's nothing wrong with a game being inconsistent, as long as it is inconsistent in the right ways.

I mean, just look at your choice of words. "So that they can focus, fully and completely, on annihilating enemies, and surviving them." This is exactly the kind of limited mindset that makes people act like 1hour or 2hour Tier-3 Survival is the final focus of the game, makes people moan and groan when it comes to missions like Defence, Excavation, Defection. Whine that they wouldn't give up vacuum for anything. They bemoan the presence of busywork, despite busywork being the primary design that the game is based around. 

Hell, so many people don't even bother with stealth in Spy missions, and just fumble their way through, which is especially infuriating for me any time I do a spy mission publicly because then I end up watching alarms go off, or failures in getting the goods. Do you know how many shortcuts exist in spy missions that people don't even know about because they just try to brute force the most obvious route?

It sometimes feels like the community of the game has largely missed the point of the game. They just want it to be faster, and faster, and simpler and simpler. And I see this issue as being largely an extension of that. It completely misses the point that some weapons have reloads so long that switching weapons is legitimately a better choice, because people are gravitating to the weapons that have faster reloads. It completely misses the point that, unlike modding for reload, you can mod for weapon switching outside of your weapon's mods, and that there's even a specialty slot that allows for that specific kind of mod.

On 11/29/2017 at 4:55 PM, tnccs215 said:

That is why I have insisted, time and time again on this thread, not that weapon's high swapping time is inherently bad (it isn't), or even that it is unmanageable (it clearly is),  but that it is contradictory to the ultimate point of the game itself. It is a relic from when the game was slower, when walking was actually the usual movement speed, and when the enemies didn't storm you by the millions. 

More evidence to the fact that people, including yourself, have missed the point of the game.

There still exist those mission types where enemies don't storm you by the millions. That is, by-and-large, an endless mission convention, most commonly present in Survival. But that's all they do anymore. It's so weird. It's so, so, so weird. Why do people act like the musou mission is the only content the game has? Why do people act like 2 hours of it, the point by which the game is actively trying to force you to stop playing, is the measure by which all content should be balanced? This isn't Bayonetta, this isn't Devil May Cry, and the developers have made a point of saying time and time again that they don't want Warframe to become that.

It's an issue that can't be solved simply by increasing weapon holster speed. It's an issue of variety and lack of depth and complexity in ordinary enemy encounters. It's an issue of player power creep due to being balanced around player demands from the perspective of 2 hours Mot. It's an issue in the lack of variety in depth and complexity in the non-horde mission types. It's an issue of people not fully understanding the game they are playing. People using backup weapons as if they're meant to be a primary source of damage. People ignore the super-ammo-inefficient weapons unless they're using Ammo Case even though they're supposed to be switching to their Secondaries when they run out of ammo. They ignore the weapons with longer reload or mod to remove that reload when they should be using their backup until they can find a safe spot in a safe moment to reload. It's all so backwards. And yet weapon switching should be faster, reinforcing this kind of thinking?

People think they've got it figured out what the game's supposed to be. And for those who have, I strongly recommend watching the original concept for Dark Sector to understand what this game was originally envisioned as, because that's still there, deep down. That's what keeps Warframe grounded, keeps it Warframe, keeps it from becoming Diablo May Dynasty Warriors.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Ardhanarishvara

[Danjal777]

If I were king for a day, i would give each weapon a swap speed rating.  Some weapons should come out fast...like the Vasto family, they are wild west six shooters, you should hit weapons swap and BOOM! there they are.  how about the Hikou family, ninja stars are fast.  Switching back to your rifle would be slower due to its bulk.  This would be an easy fix too, they just have to speed up the animation like reload.  Hell its already in the game because you can mod them faster.  So yeah.  Quick Draw.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Keanu Reeves can do it. Immortal space ninjas can't. Seems legit.

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

On 29/11/2017 at 4:47 PM, Ardhanarishvara said:

Neither, as weapon swapping is of little consequence to me except in the instance of spearguns, in which case I mod for it.

The game is designed so that if you want to play a certain way, you have to sacrifice something else. That's just how it is. Your line of reasoning is the sort of thing that would turn the game into a musou-tier god-fantasy. Just how far is far enough for you? The search for perfection is fundamentally flawed because it ignores how much deeper and more satisfying the world is with problems to overcome.

Now, I do think that maybe holster mods could be a little bit more potent though.

You're missing the point eniterly.

Warframe is the only game where upon emptying a mag it's easier to reload than to swap to your secondary, which is the whole point of having them. 

It really makes no sense, you find yourself way too many times relying either on primary or on secondary, but never swapping, which is a shame.

It should be cut in half by default.

Edited December 8, 2017 by (PS4)cdzbrbr

[-CM-Machete]

Just leaving my own upvote here. It seems like there is a crowd that doesn't want to see any improvement (or change, to be more precise) in the game, I don't know if they are blind fans who can't see any wrong or haters who want the game to stale and die, either way, they end up damaging the game.

Edited December 23, 2017 by -CM-Machete
To avoid a saltstorm

[Leqesai]

On 11/29/2017 at 9:26 AM, ShiraHagane said:

It's honestly ridiculous how slow weapon swapping is, and how nothing has been done about it for the years we've been complaining about it.

And please, don't tell me to just put the mods on, there are enough mandatory mods like serration, split chamber, Crit mods, and elementals, you shouldn't have to use up 3 mod slots across all your weapons to have a USABLE weapon swap rate.

"mandatory"

If switch speed is a problem then one might say that it is mandatory you equip the aura... That's what it is there for.

 

[Leqesai]

15 hours ago, -CM-Machete said:

Just leaving my own upvote here. It seems like there is a crowd that doesn't want to see any improvement (or change, to be more precise) in the game, I don't know if they are blind fans who can't see any wrong or haters who want the game to stale and die, either way, they end up damaging the game.

There is an aura in the game already that boosts swap speed...

Maybe some additional mods to boost it, or let it be a roll on rivens, but it is ridiculous to say changing swap speeds is a global improvement to the game.

 

I've never had issues with the swap speeds. Primarily because, if you run your mag low, you can bullet jump out of the way, reload/switch weapons etc. You can also just go into melee when your clip is dry instead of swapping. But even then I rarely find myself saying "jeez. I would have performed so much better in this situation if my weapons swapped faster."

 

Game is easy as it is. We don't need universal changes that do nothing but increase the already monumental edge players have over in-game content.

[Misgenesis]

It would improve the flow of gameplay and promote build variety. I find swap speeds to be slow enough that id rather just build for most damage instead of quick utility i could swap to and from. Slow doesnt even properly describe how it feels, its sluggish and the peer to peer connection only makes it worse.

 

[-CM-Machete]

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:21 PM, Leqesai said:

There is an aura in the game already that boosts swap speed...

Maybe some additional mods to boost it, or let it be a roll on rivens, but it is ridiculous to say changing swap speeds is a global improvement to the game.

 

I've never had issues with the swap speeds. Primarily because, if you run your mag low, you can bullet jump out of the way, reload/switch weapons etc. You can also just go into melee when your clip is dry instead of swapping. But even then I rarely find myself saying "jeez. I would have performed so much better in this situation if my weapons swapped faster."

 

Game is easy as it is. We don't need universal changes that do nothing but increase the already monumental edge players have over in-game content.

It's not about necessities, games are not necessary and we have them!!! You people just don't want to get it, many things get created out of need, but they get improved because someone wants to see beyond that caveman trying to get warm achieved when he learned to make fire or people wanting to burn those who want to build flying machines, of course you don't need to swap faster, you only need food and water, but you enjoy and probably would yourself and you didn't have all the things we all currently enjoy in our daily lives because someone wanted things to not get just BEARABLE but BETTER.

Of course it's not crucial, that doesn't work as an argument for not doing something that would improve our experiences as a whole. There has been said 100% times, that there is an aura for something, there is also a Relay where you can go to the Simulacrum, and also train the mastery tests, but you know what? Even tho it's not necessary no person on their senses would deny it would be 1000000 times better for our experience as users to have that thing on a dang console on the ship.

Nobody praises old Resident Evil games for their controls being more "challenging" than modern ones, maybe some people say "they were more authentic", "they were scarier" but nobody feels nostalgia, for one of the S#&$tiest control schemes in the history of 3D gaming, because the challenge of their control system doesn't come from its design, but the lack of it. And the same thing happens in Warframe, many petty mechanics add NOTHING to the experience but being annoying.

This is not about challenge either, challenge needs to be smart and put skills to test, either mentally or mechanically, not hindering the player with an archaic system, that's the definition of a mediocre design, it's creating an issue by itself and turning it into a "design feature", if they want to put up a challenge, they need to rebalance everything, ironically.

Quote

to say changing swap speeds is a global improvement to the game.

But it would. If an annoyance in your daily live, even if it's minimal, like an itching pain on your back, just disapears, your whole live is improved by it, you don't have to get or lose $1M for your life to have a "global" change, you are confusing drastic, with impactful or meaningful.

[Bobtm]

Swap speed being slow in Warframe currently is an objective flaw of the game that has no sense in remaining a flaw.  There's no amount of contrived nonsense or flowery words that can defend what is a design flaw to its very core.

We can already full-stop cancel shooting into quick melee and cancel the unnecessarily slow quick-melee holstering animation by firing a shot.  Were all weapon swap speeds increased in speed by 150% (cutting their time to occur to under half of what they currently are) the entire game of Warframe would be objectively better for that change without any arguable downsides to that change.

In this game DE has gone out of their way time and again to improve various animations both in their speed and fluidity.  Our Parkour was drastically improved a few years back, operator transitions were fixed to be more seamless more recently.  They've tried improving various hold inputs over time as well to minimize the inherent delay that having hold/tap inputs simply has.  This is a game where a higher pacing is simply part of the core foundation.  So having these archaic and painfully slow animations for swapping weapons is out of place and nonsensical.  Many games that are slower and more deliberate in pacing than Warframe have notably faster weapon swap speeds.  That alone is more than proof enough that this issue needs to be rectified.