No seriously. This is a must for Mirage.

[Sasuda]

On 1/4/2018 at 12:36 PM, Azamagon said:

2) Sleight of Hand's jewels also alter the light in their position.

Meaning, if you place jewels in the darkness, they will provide an area of light. If you place jewels in a light area, they will provide an area of darkness.
This means she still has the environmental flavour, but can now alter the environment. Only problem would be if you want to remove the jewels from a specific spot (as you want to be in X area, but it now has the opposite buff you want there), but there is solution for that too: Holdcast = destroy all placed jewels.
Also, this could go along with making the jewels' effect more streamlined; Jewels could deal damage and knock down nearby enemies, regardless of where they are placed (and knockdown is better imo, because she already has blind at her disposal via Prism, no need to have the same effect twice).

As a sidenote: Prism also could need a look at. Currently it deals less damage in darkness, with no benefit. So, how about these changes:
When Prism is shooting lasers in darkness -> Struck enemies are slowed down
When Prism is shooting lasters in light -> Struck enemies are more susceptible to damage (thus both being a teambuff, and an indirect buff to Prism's damagedealing).

Yup, like I said in

and https://forums.warframe.com/topic/902175-mirage-quality-of-light-changes-video/?tab=comments#comment-9357458

This is a really good add to both the ability and making Mirage much more desirable. Really simple to just provide the opposing lighting in an area, fits the mirage theme pretty nicely too. I don't think it needs to be a hold cast or anything, but different ideas are good.
I also like the Prism idea, btw.

 

[Sader]

On 1/3/2018 at 1:23 AM, GinKenshin said:

so you want a frame that can CC like crazy, either via blinding or using CC/AoE weapons to clear entire rooms to be able to choose whether it can deal more dmg or take less dmg 


so.....what will stop mirage from being unbalanced and OP if your idea does go through? what? low survivability stats? dmg reduction, remember? hard to get? it's a free frame from an easy quest, plus you can buy and farm the prime still

tell me a downside to mirage if your idea goes through. because now, her only balancing downside is that you cannot choose between these buffs 


EDIT: and bruh, just stop.......this is not how you get ideas to DE, this is embarrassing tbh 

Here's the problem with people who make posts like the OP.

Should mirage be able to change her buff at will? Sure, but then here damage reduction should be nerfed. Because if mirage gets 95% damage reduction whenever she wants then she immediately becomes the best melee frame in the game.

They want a buff, but they don't realize that in order for this to go through mirages buff would have to be nerfed.

[Fallen_Echo]

10 hours ago, Sader said:

Because if mirage gets 95% damage reduction whenever she wants then she immediately becomes the best melee frame in the game.

Why would she?

Even if i put in all shield and hp mods mirage gets 770 health and 770 shield and this means 3 slots taken for making her durable.

With HoM active she deals aprox +130% damage total (max p.strenght) when using a melee in a slightly larger range but for without the damage buff you will fall off as soon as you switch to defense mode.

The 95% damage reduction fails to defend other frames like mesa why would it change mirage into the best close range fighter?

[Sader]

25 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Why would she?

Even if i put in all shield and hp mods mirage gets 770 health and 770 shield and this means 3 slots taken for making her durable.

With HoM active she deals aprox +130% damage total (max p.strenght) when using a melee in a slightly larger range but for without the damage buff you will fall off as soon as you switch to defense mode.

The 95% damage reduction fails to defend other frames like mesa why would it change mirage into the best close range fighter?

Why would you need shields?

Mirage Prime has 150 base armor. One steel fiber puts her at 50% damage reduction, one vitality mod puts her at a rather respectable 592 health.

Add 95% damage reduction on top of that and you get a minimum of ~12,000 effective health BEFORE armor is considered. Valkyr with her armor of ~80% damage reduction has an effective health of around 4000. So tell me, why does this make sense again?

Also "Slightly" larger range, thats cute. Yes 5 mirages overlapping their melees is just a "slightly" larger range. 

One more thing: Mesas buff costs 3x More than mirages, cannot be recasted until it ends, and doesn't work if you are melee'd.  

ONE MORE ONE MORE THING:

If this buffs damage reduction worked on Mirages shield, (something I hadn't even considered) and I'm not even sure is a thing.

This would give mirage a whopping effective health of:

30,869

 

Because F*** game balance amirite?

Edited January 7, 2018 by Sader

[Trichouette]

il y a 47 minutes, Sader a dit :

So tell me, why does this make sense again?

Because she's hidden in the shadow ._.

il y a 47 minutes, Sader a dit :

If this buffs damage reduction worked on Mirages shield, (something I hadn't even considered) and I'm not even sure is a thing.

It IS a thing, damage reduction works on both shield and health. Only armor works for health only.

This is exactly why I run redirection & some augur mod on gara.

Edited January 7, 2018 by Trichouette

[Arkandae]

il y a 54 minutes, Fallen_Echo a dit :

With HoM active she deals aprox +130% damage total (max p.strenght) when using a melee

I feel bad for linking that again, but it looks like it wasn't enough : 

 

il y a 46 minutes, Sader a dit :

Yes 5 mirages overlapping their melees is just a "slightly" larger range. 

First, see above, the range is increased but the clones damages are meh.

Now there are 3 clones, it has been changed (because cpu usage). Clones are at ~1.5-2m from mirage, sure it's "huge" for something like broken war or dual cleaver, but for a whip with reach, yes it's only a slightly larger range, and it's not better than reach since it is, like you said, the same areas overlapping (plus the low clones damage).

[TheGrimCorsair]

1 hour ago, Sader said:

Why would you need shields?

Mirage Prime has 150 base armor. One steel fiber puts her at 50% damage reduction, one vitality mod puts her at a rather respectable 592 health.

Add 95% damage reduction on top of that and you get a minimum of ~12,000 effective health BEFORE armor is considered. Valkyr with her armor of ~80% damage reduction has an effective health of around 4000. So tell me, why does this make sense again?

Also "Slightly" larger range, thats cute. Yes 5 mirages overlapping their melees is just a "slightly" larger range. 

One more thing: Mesas buff costs 3x More than mirages, cannot be recasted until it ends, and doesn't work if you are melee'd.  

ONE MORE ONE MORE THING:

If this buffs damage reduction worked on Mirages shield, (something I hadn't even considered) and I'm not even sure is a thing.

This would give mirage a whopping effective health of:

30,869

 

Because F*** game balance amirite?

The damage resistance applies fully to her shields.

Also, with high power strength and the Hall of Malevolence augment, it's entirely possible to be dealing 3x your normal damage (albeit only AoE weapons will benefit reliably from this) while also maintaining 95% damage reduction whose only downside is "avoid the light."

[Sader]

1 minute ago, TheGrimCorsair said:

The damage resistance applies fully to her shields.

Also, with high power strength and the Hall of Malevolence augment, it's entirely possible to be dealing 3x your normal damage (albeit only AoE weapons will benefit reliably from this) while also maintaining 95% damage reduction whose only downside is "avoid the light."

Well that settles it, we should totally let mirage toggle 30,000 EHP at will.

[Ailyene]

The amount of darkness you need to reach 95% damage reduction is really really rare and is not the norm. 

Like at 308% power strength there are only like 3 small spots in the Hydron map that get that high, and every spot that did not get me that much gave me 40~60% reduction.

 

[Trichouette]

il y a 47 minutes, Ailyene a dit :

The amount of darkness you need to reach 95% damage reduction is really really rare and is not the norm. 

Like at 308% power strength there are only like 3 small spots in the Hydron map that get that high, and every spot that did not get me that much gave me 40~60% reduction.

 

That is absolutely false.

I just tested with intensify alone (+30% strength) I got 260% bonus damage // 95% mitigation, ON THE WHOLE MAP. (hydron)

I ran around the map with the buff enabled, and I haven't seen a single time the buff being lower than 95% and 260%.

The wiki does say "reducing incoming damage by a maximum of 25% / 40% / 60% / 75%", and "by a maximum" could be interpreted as "you can get a lower buff depending on the light condition", but nope.

[Fallen_Echo]

12 hours ago, Sader said:

Why would you need shields?

Mirage Prime has 150 base armor. One steel fiber puts her at 50% damage reduction, one vitality mod puts her at a rather respectable 592 health.

Add 95% damage reduction on top of that and you get a minimum of ~12,000 effective health BEFORE armor is considered. Valkyr with her armor of ~80% damage reduction has an effective health of around 4000. So tell me, why does this make sense again?

Also "Slightly" larger range, thats cute. Yes 5 mirages overlapping their melees is just a "slightly" larger range. 

One more thing: Mesas buff costs 3x More than mirages, cannot be recasted until it ends, and doesn't work if you are melee'd.  

ONE MORE ONE MORE THING:

If this buffs damage reduction worked on Mirages shield, (something I hadn't even considered) and I'm not even sure is a thing.

This would give mirage a whopping effective health of:

30,869

 

Because F*** game balance amirite?

1. only two clones attack and they are max 2 meter far from mirage so its really just slightly better range

2. If you think those numbers are really too high how about a bit of convience instead of toggle? Let change HoM so when its active you can see where does darkness starts and ends.

Simple and effective fix for a problem what shouldnt even exist.

[Snowbluff]

19 hours ago, Trichouette said:

That is absolutely false.

I just tested with intensify alone (+30% strength) I got 260% bonus damage // 95% mitigation, ON THE WHOLE MAP. (hydron)

I ran around the map with the buff enabled, and I haven't seen a single time the buff being lower than 95% and 260%.

The wiki does say "reducing incoming damage by a maximum of 25% / 40% / 60% / 75%", and "by a maximum" could be interpreted as "you can get a lower buff depending on the light condition", but nope.

Don't argue about it. It had to be verified by his testing. He's absolutely right, the light levels affect it.

[DeliciousDoob69]

I don't understand what's wrong with Mirage being able to pick her Eclipse buff, whats all this talk of overpowered? I could sit here and go into detail of more that a few frames that can get ridiculous damage while having amazing defenses both at the same time. I honestly don't see the problem with Mirage being able to pick one or the other because she can only ever have one amazing buff. I've never even had a problem with Mirage until DE dropped Plains of Eidolon. The true problem is in the fact that the Plains doesn't let Mirage get her Eclipse buffs as normal, she is forced to pretty much have one or the other on the Plains with very few sources to help her change it. This makes her a totally different frame out on the Plains and a lot less adaptable. As we've been told there's only more open world content coming where she'll have the same problems. Allowing her to switch with ease is only to keep her useful in new content. 

@Sasuda Thank you for putting up my post again, I truly think it offers a fair and balanced way for Mirage to toggle her buffs. I also highlights the problems that Mirage is having on the plains. I wish my post would get more attention than it all ready has as I've been talking in detail about this situation since November when they were doing changes to Mirage. I guess I'll just have to let these posts have their time in the sun as mine seems to have stopped dead, all though it has more details and suggestions and a lot less crying, ugh oh well. 

 

[ZodiacShinryu]

20 hours ago, Trichouette said:

That is absolutely false.

I just tested with intensify alone (+30% strength) I got 260% bonus damage // 95% mitigation, ON THE WHOLE MAP. (hydron)

I ran around the map with the buff enabled, and I haven't seen a single time the buff being lower than 95% and 260%.

What they are saying (concluding) is that Mirage's Eclipse works on a spectrum instead of dichotomy. That the game is misleading the player by applying a hidden modifier that shifts your buff value that the UI doesn't track. In such a case, depending on the "lighting value" you could only be getting 50% of your buff even while the UI is telling you 260%.

21 hours ago, Ailyene said:

The amount of darkness you need to reach 95% damage reduction is really really rare and is not the norm. 

Like at 308% power strength there are only like 3 small spots in the Hydron map that get that high, and every spot that did not get me that much gave me 40~60% reduction.

While I don't doubt that this could be a possibility, the first thing that should be taken care of is getting the UI to match the actual value (very much the same statement I'd be giving to Chromas and Vex just so we're clear) before even talking about being able to actively control it. There would be something wrong in the first place if this is really the case. That being said, how has this avoided the players (let alone the devs) for this long if this is how the power has always functioned? This is the first I have heard of it since Mirage was released, she wasn't exactly unpopular. The ability's description in the game doesn't even hint that it should be working this way.

One way or the other something needs to be addressed: The UI or the buff caps. Lets assume that Eclipse really is working on a hidden modifier of light intensity (honestly I don't know because I would need to see (or do) testing that demonstrate wide variation in output results). Then the UI needs to be changed to reflect that so that we can actually see what is happening and make informed decisions on what is acceptable for changes. If you are realistically only getting 350% damage boost when you are in lighted areas (as opposed to your max 700%) or whatever the DR comes to (since you reach 95% long before reaching 700% damage as far as modding) then allowing Mirage to swap buffs becomes more stomache-able for an ability you can recast. Though I'd still be against the option of providing the synergy of abilities to give you your max at will in such a case.

However, what if it is a bug that is preventing Mirage from maximum buff values and she should be getting 95% DR and 700%+ weapon damage when the UI tells you that you have the respecting buff? If they fix that then Mirage would be seeing (by your accounts) huge gains before any other change needs to be considered. Honestly there is no other changes needed in such a case. I mean a correctly functioning 700% Eclipse damage buff that is super cheap energy wise (I think its only 36 energy with neg efficiency), relatively long duration (40-50sec) and is recastable (at any remaining duration) instantly at a button press and can be extended to the whole squad doesn't need any more active control. The fact you lack that control is what should allow you to have those numbers. If people still want that control then they may need to reserve themselves to accepting a lower buff cap and/or loss of recastability.

[MuscleBeach]

2 hours ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

If people still want that control then they may need to reserve themselves to accepting a lower buff cap and/or loss of recastability.

Totally fine. I don't know of anyone that brings Mirage as a buffer. Nerf its stats, remove its recastability, give us SOME control over the buff, and make it more consistent: Don't let light density affect how much of the buff we get. Some of both buffs = not a good ability. All of each buff under our control with conditions = Interactive and balanced. I'm going to repeat my suggestion again:

Always in night mode. Light mode activates for the duration of the blind on Sleight of hand when it pops and while channeling prism and a few seconds after it pops. 10% reduced effectiveness of buff when not standing in light that matches buff you're using (or nerf the buff and don't implement this part). While staying true to Mirage's theme, you now use 2 and 4 more often and have control of your buff while doing so for limited times at the cost of energy. 

[ZodiacShinryu]

1 hour ago, MuscleBeach said:

All of each buff under our control with conditions = Interactive and balanced.

I mean with certain tweaked values then... maybe? It is not an entirely true statement after all Chroma (and Limbo for that matter) is a shining example of control vs benefit and how the community views that (not well to be clear). Chroma has a condition, he has to risk him self constantly, to gain his buffs. Eventually given enough time he will no longer be able to risk himself with any reasonable safety and despite what people think there are quite a number of things that can go wrong in practice that will lead to his death. He does have a measure of control in the form of self damage (which even I have my own reservations against) where he can lower the risk by controlling the situation on his terms. However that doesn't stop the tides for calling him imbalanced and honestly speaking the self damage really does tip him in the wrong direction, but there are more complexities to how Vex functions with the rest of the game.

Simply put, be careful what you wish for. As for your suggestion, with Saryn as a precedent, people don't like "forced" synergy no matter how trivial the energy limitations can be. Depending on how/if DE would decide on other limitations and you can end up with another problem. And a loud forum screaming how pointless it made her.

[Ailyene]

My (Dark) Eclipse testing numbers are in the 2nd page of the Eclipse vs. Vex Armor thread if there's any doubt that her displayed 95% damage reduction scales to darkness.  Its a bit too long to repaste here.

Anyways, on the topic of balance.  Rather than comparing her to Chroma, I'd rather compare her to equally optimized Rhino/Octavia (DPS Support Frames) builds (

(Repeated each test 3~10 times for consistency)

Using HoM and Eclipse with a radiation element Opticor, she took 3~5 shots to kill a level 150 Napalm.
Rhino with Roar consistently kills the opponent in 2~3 shots.
Octavia with Amp consistently killed the opponent in 2~3 shots as well.

Against a cluster of 8 level 150 Napalms where it should really favor Mirage, Mirage (HoM + Eclipse) took an average of 20 slide attacks to kill the cluster.
Rhino took an average of 15 slide attacks.
Octavia took an average of 18 slide attacks.

Rhino has about 8k eHP (7k from Iron Skin which is refresh-able with my build) and has full CC and status effect immunity while retaining full mobility.
Mirage has a very unpredictable amount of damage reduction, Eclipse only reliably gives about 50% damage reduction in most darkness so most of her damage reduction comes from her clones which don't work against aoe attacks.  The zone between 95% reduction and 60% is less than a meter at times and is visually indiscernible from each other even ignoring the rarity of 95% DR zones or how they force her to just stand still once she finds a spot (which makes her more vulnerable to CC that could knock her out of the zone).
Octavia has shareable perma-invisibility and speed buffs instead of damage reduction, I personally think this is superior to either above but its not actual damage reduction.

Rhino's is one of the best hard CCs in the game with the furthest range and good duration and can viably mod for everything at the same time if desired.
Mirage's CC is honestly slow, easily obstructed, and impractical to mod for; does not synergize with HoM and Eclipse forcing a choice between making the most of those skills or this one with each choice harming the other skill.
Octavia's Resonator is in my opinion is every bit as good as Rhino's and modding for it synergizes with all her other skills as well.

Basically she is a lower DPS Rhino/Octavia even with unrealistically high light in the Simulacrum with lower utility and less reliable defense.  I'd really like her to at least be slightly above those two as a DPS frame since she brings less utility than them.

 

A lot of the suggestions I've seen look interesting and bring synergy between her abilities but I also wouldn't mind if they just took a lazier route and gave her more purity of purpose as a full on DPS frame, making Eclipse only give the damage buff at full strength and nothing else.  As Eclipse is, it tries to be both defense and offense and achieves neither because light levels which are meant to balance it scale it so close to the minimum values in either mode.

I would not mind at all a slight-moderate nerf if we could control which buff we got at displayed values either, though it really does not need a nerf if we can't in my opinion with how many 10k+eHP/Invulnerable frames there are (Wukong, Trinity, Nyx, Nova, Mesa, Inaros, Gara, Chroma) that still have full use of their abilities, mobility, weapons, own damage buffs.  A UI update is 100% needed if we get stuck with light scaling buffs, UI should not be telling me my buff is giving me 95% reduction if its giving me 30%.

[TKDancer]

8 minutes ago, Ailyene said:

Basically she is a lower DPS Rhino/Octavia

no

[Ailyene]

3 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

no

I meant as a DPS frame, but yeah her party utility is way lower than those two and not even comparable.

[MuscleBeach]

7 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

I mean with certain tweaked values then... maybe?

Of course. I'm not expecting such a big change without repercussions. I'd be more than happy for a Mirage Eclipse nerf if my suggestions were implemented. I do think the Damage reduction should not be nerfed though, only the damage side. She's squishy and really does need that DR.

9 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

It is not an entirely true statement after all Chroma (and Limbo for that matter) is a shining example of control vs benefit and how the community views that (not well to be clear).

The thing about Limbo and why everyone hates him, stasis stops other players from playing the game (unless you main Atlas like me since Warframe abilities hit people no matter where they are :D). If Limbo players would not use stasis, he wouldn't be so annoying. People don't like it when they can't play the game (World on Fire in star chart being another example of this). The bubble can also be kind of annoying (I say this for others, I don't find it annoying). People wouldn't complain so much if all they had to do was stand in a giant bubble but Stasis makes it so that it doesn't matter where you're standing. Chroma is only OP vs Teralysts and due to a bug that needs to be fixed. When the bug is fixed, he'll still probably shine there. The thing about Chroma is he has reasonable drawbacks in most of the game. Chroma only takes the fun out of Teralyst hunting. He's not OP anywhere else. If he were, people would bring him to endurance runs. 

19 minutes ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Simply put, be careful what you wish for. As for your suggestion, with Saryn as a precedent, people don't like "forced" synergy no matter how trivial the energy limitations can be. Depending on how/if DE would decide on other limitations and you can end up with another problem. And a loud forum screaming how pointless it made her.

I guess we'll see how much forum screaming matters when damage 2.5 rolls out. But there will always be a forum screaming. It's a matter of how much screaming is happening. You can't please everyone :(  I haven't really heard any Saryn screaming? Maybe that's just because it's old news now and I'm new to looking at the forums. 

[Snowbluff]

2 hours ago, Ailyene said:

I would not mind at all a slight-moderate nerf if we could control which buff we got at displayed values either, though it really does not need a nerf if we can't in my opinion with how many 10k+eHP/Invulnerable frames there are (Wukong, Trinity, Nyx, Nova, Mesa, Inaros, Gara, Chroma) that still have full use of their abilities, mobility, weapons, own damage buffs.  A UI update is 100% needed if we get stuck with light scaling buffs, UI should not be telling me my buff is giving me 95% reduction if its giving me 30%.

This entirely. She's not getting those values anyway, so it's not even really a nerf. XD

[Raspberry]

I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but Eclipse's duration should match Hall of Mirrors since they're often used together. To balance this out, Eclipse cannot be refreshed, only recast after it's expired (just like Hall of Mirrors). As for the actual effects of Eclipse itself, you guys can keep debating.

[Snowbluff]

8 hours ago, Raspberri said:

I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but Eclipse's duration should match Hall of Mirrors since they're often used together. To balance this out, Eclipse cannot be refreshed, only recast after it's expired (just like Hall of Mirrors). As for the actual effects of Eclipse itself, you guys can keep debating.

UNrecastable abilities are aggravating for literally no reason.

[Raspberry]

3 hours ago, Snowbluff said:

UNrecastable abilities are aggravating for literally no reason.

Unfortunately for you, that is a LOT of abilities in the whole game that aggrevate you for no reason.

[Snowbluff]

2 minutes ago, Raspberri said:

Unfortunately for you, that is a LOT of abilities in the whole game that aggrevate you for no reason.

Yes. There is no reason for them not to be recastable. They aggravate me because they negatively affect game flow, and are blatantly poor design.