Can we get a reworked moderation system?

[Karixolu]

Shouldn't Glen be banned from the in-game chat for the amount of suggestive, lewd, or implied meanings that is often behind the Red Text before updates? It's a bit hypocritical to ban someone else for saying what is basically a meme. I understand banning for racial slurs, hate speech, etc. But this game is marketed at Mature, 17+. Where, honestly. People shouldn't be getting offended by random off-topic memery, and if people aren't, then the bans enforced are just others, taking offence, for people who it's targeted at, who aren't offended themselves.

 

It's common practice to tell people how long they're going to be unable to use a service, chat, the game itself, the forums. You don't get arrested, and the police say " Oh, we're just going to keep you here for a while. How long? Eh. I don't want to tell you. Could be a week! Could be till 2035. You're the one to violated the law. " And it's all just a bit silly. Not only that, but first time, second time, and so forth, offenders should probably be treated differently. If they've knowingly said something, and been banned for it. And they see that " Damn, saying this word gets me banned for 2 days.. Better not say that " But if they say it again? OR say something worse? A Week.. Next time? A fortnight. A month. Perma. 

 

Dumb, silly things shouldn't get you chat banned on everything for an undisclosed amount of time. IF people knew the time they were banned for, and why they were banned, they'd stop complaining. Less complaining, more resources spent on other things. Less time that people have to view all this garbage on the forums constantly. I understand that you're trying to crack down hard, and set an example of people, but right now, it just kind of seems that you're on a power high, and doing something akin to what Fortnight, the game, did with its sueing of a 14 y/o. Making a big example of something you really shouldn't. It's pretty bad press, and a bad example for others.

[Voltage]

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

In the end the only solution I see is the complete elimination of region chat and set clear guidelines that are black and white for trade and recruiting chat. And be done with it. 

Guidelines cannot be black and white, and some moderators choose to use their opinion as basis to ban/warn you. I have been moderated in the past, and I literally linked them the forums guidelines and described how my post did not violate any rules unless they want to interpret a rule to blanket over my post. I got a warning for spam when the post was original and just disagreed with a moderators view. That is NOT how moderation works. You moderate based on the content of whether it is safe or not, not because you disagree with something on the internet.

Edited January 12, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

1 minute ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Guidelines cannot be black and white, and some moderators choose to use their opinion as basis to ban/warn you. I have been moderated in the past, and I literally linked them the forums guidelines and described how my post did not violate any rules unless they want to interpret a rule to blanket over my post. I got a warning for spam when the post was original and just disagreed with a moderators view. That is NOT how moderation works. You moderate based on the content of whether it is safe or not, not because you disagree with something on the internet.

I agree on this in principle. 

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

On 1/12/2018 at 1:36 PM, Gabbynaru said:

-Snip-

Maybe in the context of the United states. Not Canada 

[Gabbynaru]

2 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

Maybe in the context of the United states. Not Canada 

Last I checked, Canada was not an Anarchy. So, you might need to further expand on what do you mean by that.

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

22 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

This is DE's playgrounds, and they make the rules, that you have to follow.

This thread is basically saying the rules of chat should be stated and aren't. And based on what is said there should be a degree in how it's moderated.

I think it's all feel good talk. And cannot be implemented. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

2 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

Last I checked, Canada was not an Anarchy. So, you might need to further expand on what do you mean by that.

How does non compelled speech in private sectors constitute an anarchy? 

 

 

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

Just now, Eureka.seveN said:

Maybe in the context of the United states. Not Canada 

May I direct you back to the ToS under the same legal user content section:

Quote

[...]in the sole judgment of DIGITAL EXTREMES, is objectionable or which restricts or inhibits any other person from using or enjoying the Interactive Areas or the Site, or which may expose Digital Extremes or its users to any harm or liability of any type.

Objectionable is left widely open to interpretation. That said, access to this game is a privilege and not a right. Finally, let me direct you all to this portion of the ToS all of us agreed to upon making our accounts under the account termination section:

Quote

Digital Extremes may at its option issue warnings and temporary suspensions and permanent terminations of Accounts for user violations. Digital Extremes retains the sole discretion as to when and how to impose warnings, penalties and/or disciplinary actions. DE considers the severity of the violation and the number of infractions in making the determination; however, any determination shall be under the absolute discretion of DE. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Digital Extremes always retains the right to terminate or suspend a User’s Account at any time for any reason, or for no reason, with or without any warnings and with or without notice.

For the avoidance of doubt, you herby acknowledge that Digital Extremes has sole discretion with respect to termination of your Account, even if there are credits remaining on your Account.

 

[Voltage]

12 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

This is DE's playgrounds, and they make the rules, that you have to follow.

How can you do this if their rules are not clearly displayed.

Edited January 12, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[Gabbynaru]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

This thread is basically saying the rules of chat should stated and aren't. 

I already gave my thoughts on that:

17 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Yeah, and how would a stickied forum post not help with that? You come here complaining that the forums get flooded every day with people asking for explanations, I offer you a simple solution, and you choose to ignore it for no reason. A forum post that explains the rules, the banned words and the ban durations, stickied under the Rules and Guidelines subforum sounds like more than enough to me. Not to mention is very quick and very easy to implement, doesn't take from development time, it just requires a forum moderator to take an hour and write all that down, and there we go, there's the solution to your problem.

____________

2 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

How does non compelled speech in private sectors constitute an anarchy? 

 

 

That's why I asked you to explain further what you meant by "the US but not Canada". Can't read your mind, and with such a simple line, I can just jump to conclusions.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

May I direct you back to the ToS under the same legal user content section:

Objectionable is left widely open to interpretation. That said, access to this game is a privilege and not a right. Finally, let me direct you all to this portion of the ToS all of us agreed to upon making our accounts under the account termination section:

 

That's why I stay as far away from here as I can along with region.

People who think this TOS is justifiable are not worth talking to for extended periods of time

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Just now, Gabbynaru said:

I already gave my thoughts on that:

____________

That's why I asked you to explain further what you meant by "the US but not Canada". Can't read your mind, and with such a simple line, I can just jump to conclusions.

Wtf?

 

You stated the right of speech in private sectors.

 

I stated that this applies in the US and maybe not Canada

 

What part of that did you fail to understand?

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

1 minute ago, Eureka.seveN said:

That's why I stay as far away from here as I can along with region.

People who think this TOS is justifiable are not worth talking to for extended periods of time

the ToS any any game is created to save the developers arse when legal battles come up. All I gotta say there. If you don't like the terms of use, then don't use the service.

[(PSN)AngelShur]

I'm leaving this here, by the way it's also updated on my first post:

Q: I was kicked/banned and I disagree with the action taken. What should I do?
A: Please send a ticket to support.warframe.com with a detailed report of what you were kicked/banned for and why you are contesting it. Keep in mind that the Chat Moderators - same goes for the Chatbots are working based on a "Mature" rating, with an eye on swear words, foul language and disruptive/negative behaviour just as much as more blatant rule violations. Their main goal is to keep the chat channels (primarily Region) respectful and as squeaky clean they can keep it. 

If you are unable to get in contact with a Chat Moderator, or are unhappy with the outcome of your conversations and wish to continue the appeal, you are welcome to submit a ticket to support for further review. Expect some delay, as the team is fairly busy.

Q: I keep getting banned from chat, what am I doing wrong? 
A: If you have repeated the same offense several times, or have continued to violate the rules, you will continue to be banned from chat either by a Chat Moderator or by the Chatbots.

Q: How long do chat bans last?
A: Depending on the severity or frequency of the violation, bans can last an hour, a day, or a week. Chat Moderators are unable to permanently suspend access to chat, so if you are unable to rejoin chat after a week, please contact support. 

[Gabbynaru]

Just now, Eureka.seveN said:

Wtf?

 

You stated the right of speech in private sectors.

 

I stated that this applies in the US and maybe not Canada

 

What part of that did you fail to understand?

Well, the part where Canada wouldn't follow basically the same rules as the rest of the world. It's a possibility, I'm not gonna deny it, but, if you say that's how it works in the US, and I say that's how it works in Europe, cause that is where I live, then it would be rather strange for Canada, who is closely tied with their neighbors to the south, to not follow similar rules. I'm not denying the possibility, I don't live in Canada to tell you, and if you do and know how it works, then please let me know and I'll admit my mistake.

[StinkyPygmy]

I'm inclined to agree. While I can't say i've ever been banned myself, I've had my own grips with overzealous mods on these forums that have been less than helpful with explaining what exactly the issue was (It wasn't something blatant and obvious) and was normally just met with passive aggressive remarks.

There is a distinct lack of communication for both hard bans and general modding on both the forums and in game. DE could handle the whole system with a lot more transparency rather then just throwing around vague and unclear bans with little to no communication. It's not very professional or, more importantly, actually helpful and as it doesn't give anyone time to reflect on what they've done.

Edited January 12, 2018 by StinkyPygmy

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Boomstickman98 said:

the ToS any any game is created to save the developers arse when legal battles come up. All I gotta say there. If you don't like the terms of use, then don't use the service.

This my be a foreign concept but its called selective use.

If  I don't agree with the moderation policy of DE I don't Chat on DEs servers.

This is not like PS4 where I have to pay x dollars per year even if I don't use a chunk of the services it provides. If I don't like the ToS but like the game I am free to avoid chat rooms that can get me service suspended. I can talk bad about a moderator or player in a discord server because it's not in their juristiction and they can't tell people use outside wf channels what they can or cannot say. That's choosing what parts if the service you do and don't use.

 

Personally I prefer if everyone of all opinions can talk together but many companies, government and people prefer to reinact policies similar to Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipeleago. Then I can't do anything about that myself

Edited January 12, 2018 by Eureka.seveN

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

3 minutes ago, Eureka.seveN said:

This my be a foreign concept but its called selective use.

If  I don't agree with the moderation policy of DE I don't Chat on DEs servers.

This is not like PS4 where I have to pay x dollars per year even if I don't use a chunk of the services it provides. If I don't like the ToS but like the game I am free to avoid chat rooms that can get me service suspended. I can talk bad about a moderator or player in a discord server because it's not in their juristiction and they can't tell people use outside wf channels what they can or cannot say. That's choosing what parts if the service you do and don't use.

That I can completely agree with. You are thinking smartly there. :)

[Sibernetika]

Maybe the thing that everyone is missing here is please list the stuff we can't say... And give us a reason and time for our chat ban... How are we supposed to be follow DEs personal set of rules if they aren't being transparent with them.. Its basically a sign that says this is a minefield but not stating where the mines is

[KirukaChan]

34 minutes ago, Sibernetika said:

Maybe the thing that everyone is missing here is please list the stuff we can't say... And give us a reason and time for our chat ban... How are we supposed to be follow DEs personal set of rules if they aren't being transparent with them.. Its basically a sign that says this is a minefield but not stating where the mines is

The opposition to the opening post is pretty much saying "The ToS is a thing, and DE can do what they want," and while I don't deny those facts (I don't think anyone really is), to me this isn't about what DE can and can't do from a legal or a moral standpoint. To me, it's about customer relations and sweet, sweet grofit.

At more than one job, I had it drilled into my head that even if the customer is wrong, or even if the customer is being rude, I still had to do my best to be professional and not act in a condescending manner toward them not because they legitimately deserve the respect, but for the sake of damage control. This thread (and the thread linked on the first page of this one) is a good example of how what can start as a one-on-one interaction between an employee and a customer can be noticed by other customers, and affect many peoples' perception of the company as a result. It's a ripple effect.

It's far more preferable to do business in such a manner as to minimize the number of dissenters, and within that group, to maximize the number of dissenters that make themselves look like clowns.

Spoiler

(Also, have I mentioned that I am in no way affiliated with the Corpus nor am I a Corpus sympathizer? Because I'm not.)

 

[Spectre-8]

lol

[notlamprey]

2 hours ago, Sibernetika said:

Maybe the thing that everyone is missing here is please list the stuff we can't say... And give us a reason and time for our chat ban... How are we supposed to be follow DEs personal set of rules if they aren't being transparent with them.. Its basically a sign that says this is a minefield but not stating where the mines is

What that tells me is that DE doesn't actually know what "we can't say."

They're using a combination of personal discretion and the ADL's list of no-no words. The laws they're forced to abide by are impossibly vague, and the ADL's list is an explicit (because they stated this is its purpose) attempt to catch every word or item that might possibly offend anyone ever.

The standards DE is legally obligated to meet in this area are ridiculous and unreasonable. While I won't defend any individual employee's bad behavior, I do have sympathy for the company as a whole. It's an impossible task, a frustrating and oppressive task. DE isn't given clear rules to follow either. In practice, this means they effectively kick the task onto us. Not because they want to, but because they have no idea what else to do.

I see two major things happening here.

     First, DE is subject to unreasonable legal requirements. Staffers like Glen are asked to play a difficult and punishing game that doesn't have clear rules, and their tools are mostly punitive ones. They have no "let's take a minute to talk about this problem" remedies, and not enough people or time to attempt that.

     Second, this means the employees are under a lot of pressure ("don't cost the company all its money"), and the players are the easiest scapegoat for their frustrations.

As some other people have said here, I think the best solution is just to avoid talking on DE's turf.

 

 

 

 

[Oreades]

It seems rather silly to me that there isn't already some automated system in place to take care of notifications in regards to bans, chat or otherwise. 

If for no other reason than the fact that it should take a non insignificant load off of support and curb the flow of "why isn't my chat working?!!?!?" posts. Which have gotten responses from the devs on occasions but that means that they have taken time out of their day to answer a question that could have been conveyed by a bot in a matter of milliseconds. 

 

My personal wishlist 

For the chat bot to be less ban happy when it comes to mismatched communications. People accidentally WTS or LFG in the wrong channels all the time, that shouldn't be something that gets you a temp ban. It should delete the message and have the chat bot shoot you a whisper letting you know/warning you that you have for what ever reason sent a "non compatible" message, that was it was deleted and pleas be more careful in the future. Flag the account for like 10min and if it happens again then yeah toss them a temp ban for 30min to an hour. Cause most of the time those messages are going to be accidental with no malice on the part of the sender.

If someone manages to "earn" themselves a more serious ban, let them know. A simple pre-packaged whisper message should be sufficient. EG" You have been suspended from chat for inappropriate language" along with copying the message that triggered the ban so they can see what they said and maybe just maybe that could help them reflect on the reason they are suspended. If it is not possible because for whatever reason cutting them off from chat closes their whispers.... script a plugin for the game that shoots them an in game mail note to the same end. 

 

I'd also love to see the name filter for Warframe have some additional parameters added to it. To bring it inline with the chat bots kick/ban parameters as I'm relatively sure that people with a long string of capital letters will get you kicked if you (at) reply to them. Due to the fact that their name pushes you over the capital string percentage. Alternatively they could set the bot to ignore anything directly after the (at) however that would likely lead to abuse of the (at) to get around the bot. Tho I could be mistaken about all of that last thing I said or it may already have been corrected? Who knows :P

 

It seems like it would be a bit of work up front to save a lot of work over the long run. 

[KirukaChan]

1 hour ago, notlamprey said:

Second, this means the employees are under a lot of pressure ("don't cost the company all its money"), and the players are the easiest scapegoat for their frustrations.

Using one's customers as scapegoats for frustrations, especially if it happens on a regular basis to the point of infamy, is a sign of being unfit to deal with customers. It's something that at any normal job involving dealing with people would earn disciplinary action (or, if the boss is the savvy sort, an offer of a change of position to something more under-the-radar if it's available).

Your post was a good one though, and my heart does go out to DE for having to play on C16's monkey bars.

[MagPrime]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

 

 

Please find where anyone has bashed on a dev.

And I don't mean the posts where people have expressed concern over one person's behaviour, I mean go to the forum guidelines and using the example provided there, and find any instance of legitimate dev bashing.

After that, please find where people have been toxic.