"Press X to suicide" option considered harmful

[marelooke]

So there's this "new" (don't know when it was introduced) option where you can just instantly revive when downed.

This is clearly nice for experienced players (and was long requested) to avoid having to sit there bleeding out in a hopeless situation. Or having someone try to be nice and revive you under fire and just get downed as well.

However, I did say "experienced" players, those with the awareness of when to use this option and when to await a revive. I often play endless missions on low level planets and constantly seeing newbies "suicide" instead of waiting for a revive irks me. They also often do it while I'm reviving them. They're wasting XP, make it harder to go longer (since they unnecessarily waste revives) and most importantly (imho) they do not learn that going down and being revived are OK and will happen to everyone at some point. It's also part of the learning process for new players and most veterans would rather pick up a rookie 20 times than extract early (which I argue in the long run is beneficial for both: rookie gets xp and experience dealing with harder enemies, veteran gets more loot/fun and the community hopefully gets a more experienced player out of it too)

I'd also add that I worry that this might lead to a more general attitude where getting downed is being looked down upon and downed people actively get ignored instead of helped.

I would suggest that this feature become mastery or otherwise locked to avoid newbies learning bad habits (or at the very least not learning good ones). Which mastery level constitutes an adequate level of experience or whether another mechanism would be more adequate (completion of certain quest(s)) I leave for others to decide but I feel having this feature available from the very beginning is detrimental in the long run.

[(XBOX)TogetherTurtle]

Mastery locked, maybe not. Maybe there should be a tutorial about reviving, as well as a lot of other game mechanics. That's just my 2 cents though.

[StinkyPygmy]

Or you know, just let people do their thing. If someone can't figure out how to appropriately use the insta-respawn pretty soon into the game then MR locking it isn't going to do much.

I personally don't think there is an actual issue worth worrying about here. It's not complicated stuff and in this case I believe player choice trumps a small amount of new players not using the insta-respawn option effectively. Not to mention MR means diddly squat in terms of experience or general intelligence. Its all a pretty simple concept. Would rather see a small tutorial if we have to do anything at all.

Really, does seem like making a mountain out of a mole hill to me though.

Edited January 15, 2018 by StinkyPygmy

[DarthBane1]

I believe this was to help with the getting stuck problem. However, at times this doesn't work. It was released I believe sometime in between August and September of 2017. I do agree though some tutorial is needed. 

[Kuestenjung]

Mastery locked revives? That´s a stupid idea.

It should be reduced to 2 revives.

And btw, this has nothing to do with "experienced" or not.  No matter what mastery, people are using it without the need. There are even people who stay in bleedout and once someone is there to revive they commit suicide. A new way of trolling.

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

they do not learn that going down and being revived are OK and will happen to everyone at some point

I personally don't agree with that. Because of this, I'm constantly seeing people that aren't new and pretty much forced to revive their sorry *** in sorties, often resulting in this - 

Спойлер

 

Цитата

I'd also add that I worry that this might lead to a more general attitude where getting downed is being looked down upon and downed people actively get ignored instead of helped.

See above. It's getting old reving people if majority *expects* that someone will revive them all the time and they don't even try. 24 revives divided between 3 players is absolutely *** in a 5-7 minutes long missions, it means 3 players died 8 times which is 2 times more tnan you normally could before you will fail the mission. If I wasn't playing Limbo I'd honestly let them. The only downside is that even once they exhaust all their revives they will be lying dead, leeching and still will receive the end-mision reward regardless.

Dying is pretty bad no matter how you look at this. And when it comes to new players, there's giant letters saying to them that reviving themselves will cost x affinity. If they don't pay attention to this it's their own fault.

Edited January 15, 2018 by -Temp0-

[EmberStar]

Mastery locking it would be silly.  It could be a little more apparent about the affinity loss though.  As in, you get to the end of the mission, and the XP bar extends out, then a big chunk of it turns red as the bar scrolls backwards to show how much you lost paying for revives.  :P

[trndr]

I've seen MR 15+ run out of revives on JV due to abusing press X to instarevive on stage 1 and 2, so I can't see how MR locking the option would make a difference.

Any change to the revive system introduces some bad habits to some players. I can still remember the good old 4 revives per frame per day, where waiting for others at the lift wasn't just the galant thing to do, it was a necessity to allow you to play the game or pay to get revives.

[Navarc]

I saw a newbie the other day keep dying in a mission, instead of letting me insta-revive him he suicide revived until he ran out of revives and was shocked he had to abort.
A tutorial for this is pretty important.

[Snib]

Silly suggestion. If they don't know how the system work why not just talk to them and explain it?

[DrBorris]

They just need to make the penalty a wee bit higher to self-revive and, more importantly, actually show you what you are losing when you self revive.

 

For those who don't know, you lose 10% (should be bumped to 15% IMO) of the affinity you accumulated in mission when you self-revive. However, all that is shown is a numerical amount of affinity you lose (and I don't know anyone who can make heads or tails of that number alone). What the should rather show is how many levels you lose on a weapon, how much focus you are losing, and how much syndicate rep you are losing.

 

The amount of players self-reviving on leveling nodes with a bunch of unleveled equipment is depressing, many people just don't know that there is a downside.

Also, as many predicted the likelihood of being revived when you go down has seemed to fall a bit. Maybe if players actually knew that it hurst to self-revive they would be more likely to revive you.

 

(Also, Arcane revives should not have any affinity penalty to make them actually of use if you go down)

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

They just need to make the penalty a wee bit higher to self-revive and, more importantly, actually show you what you are losing when you self revive.

This doesn't make *any* sense. Especially since they remvoed the ability to insta-revive people with vazarin mroe than 4 times in a single mission. If anything, reviving them should be made easier before you will do anything else even if with focus. In addition to being able to replenish those instant revives they could make another path that makes you revive players by stepping on them or dashing through (pretty much).

Otherwise, solo mode it is for 99% of the missions. Yo come in to play the mission, end up doing nothing but reviving geniuses that decided to play Equinox in stage 3 sortie survival withtoxin damage.

Edited January 15, 2018 by -Temp0-

[marelooke]

1 hour ago, Kuestenjung said:

Mastery locked revives? That´s a stupid idea.

It should be reduced to 2 revives.

And btw, this has nothing to do with "experienced" or not.  No matter what mastery, people are using it without the need. There are even people who stay in bleedout and once someone is there to revive they commit suicide. A new way of trolling.

Not mastery locked revives, mastery locked "suicide to insta-respawn". I don't see why it's silly. It's how most of us learned to play, after all.

1 hour ago, -Temp0- said:

I personally don't agree with that. Because of this, I'm constantly seeing people that aren't new and pretty much forced to revive their sorry *** in sorties, often resulting in this - 

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See above. It's getting old reving people if majority *expects* that someone will revive them all the time and they don't even try. 24 revives divided between 3 players is absolutely *** in a 5-7 minutes long missions, it means 3 players died 8 times which is 2 times more tnan you normally could before you will fail the mission. If I wasn't playing Limbo I'd honestly let them. The only downside is that even once they exhaust all their revives they will be lying dead, leeching and still will receive the end-mision reward regardless.

Dying is pretty bad no matter how you look at this. And when it comes to new players, there's giant letters saying to them that reviving themselves will cost x affinity. If they don't pay attention to this it's their own fault.

Are you sure they are not new? Unless they are Founders it's hard to tell how new anyone is since grinding mastery isn't exactly hard nowadays. Moreover the game hardly encourages anyone to do anything hard (like long survivals). I've not personally experienced the kind of people you complain about very often, certainly less often than the reason for me to make this post.

Generally speaking if a non-rookie keeps getting downed I will either tell them to be more careful, or just call on the team to extract.

1 hour ago, Snib said:

Silly suggestion. If they don't know how the system work why not just talk to them and explain it?

Yes, along with the million other things we need to explain, over and over again because the game doesn't. Why require people to explain something when it can be made self-evident. You know, like it used to be?

Edited January 15, 2018 by marelooke

[marelooke]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)TogetherTurtle said:

Mastery locked, maybe not. Maybe there should be a tutorial about reviving, as well as a lot of other game mechanics. That's just my 2 cents though.

As I mentioned in my OP, the way in which it happens I leave open for others to decide. I just see a problem and wanted to point it out.

However, I'm not sure a tutorial would work since arguably this behaviour (or rather, the behaviour I would like to see maintained) is part of Warframe etiquette (like people holding elevators which becomes rarer and rarer as well), but perhaps an etiquette tutorial or introduction would work after all. I'm honestly not sure.

Edited January 15, 2018 by marelooke

[BahamutKaiser]

Failure is a teacher, I don't know why ppl think failure shouldn't exist. 

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)TogetherTurtle said:

Maybe there should be a tutorial about reviving

No. Why?

The game explicitly states that holding X will use one of your revives and the Lotus voiceovers have her go out of her way to tell the other players to help the downed Tenno.

This is a case of common sense.

[marelooke]

5 minutes ago, BahamutKaiser said:

Failure is a teacher, I don't know why ppl think failure shouldn't exist. 

Without proper quoting I don't think anyone knows what you are talking about and how it relates to the subject at hand.

[BahamutKaiser]

Oops, I did it again. 

[-Temp0-]

Цитата

Are you sure they are not new?

No. Most players I encounter in sorties are between mr 15-25. You can grind mastery (even tho not really, I do not believe there's that many that will speedrun up to mr 20) but still at mr20 you, under no circumstances, can be considered a new player. They're just lazy and expect to get carried, they expect to get revived when (not if) they go down. If you think those 10-15+ revives aren't common well you're wrong. It happens fairly often that's why I solo everything I can and don't like when people cry here on the forums that no one revives them despite being relatively close. Being revived isn't a right. Peopel are being nice doing so. You should appreciate them doing it but have no right complaining when they don't. I can understand dying in Kuva fortress defense for example but they do it pretty much all survivals, defense and interceptions. In one interception recently a group failed a mission because all 3 kept dying and dying non-stop, I honestly didn't know it was even possible to fail like that because I never experienced 4 people dying/bleeding out at once. And honestly? This is how it should be. People became so lazy that they don't even anticipate the probability of failing a mission. Because they know that most of the times someone will pick up their slack. It's exteremely annoying. Again, luckily, wf has solo option. Much appreciated.

Цитата

Generally speaking if a non-rookie keeps getting downed I will either tell them to be more careful, or just call on the team to extract.

I mostly do sorties with pubs (mostly defense and interception for obvious reasons). You can't possibly extract before your time. You can only leave and lose progress, fail or let them die but again, they will just do nothing but leech and will receive the reward even tho they're dead in the end of the missions. It's not that much or a problem for me as I can solo almost anything if I want to even if it will longer or cost more resources, but that reviving system is really awful. Back in my days 

Спойлер

if you died 4 times with x warfarme you'd be unable to complet y mission with it for the rest of the day. Now? Now it's a complete joke and people drop like flies left and right expecting teammates to carry them and revive when those palyers feel like it. It doesn't help that vazarin was nerfed. It wasn't as annoying when real instant revives were a thing.

[trndr]

11 minutes ago, marelooke said:

However, I'm not sure a tutorial would work since arguably this behaviour (or rather, the behaviour I would like to see maintained) is part of Warframe etiquette (like people holding elevators which becomes rarer and rarer as well), but perhaps an etiquette tutorial or introduction would work after all.

Perhaps a new forced tutorial with defection rescue targets on a lift filled corpus tile set. Would help reintroduce the tenno etiquette.

Players helping each other has been the main reason I've prefered Warframe over other games.

[Snib]

55 minutes ago, marelooke said:

Yes, along with the million other things we need to explain, over and over again because the game doesn't. Why require people to explain something when it can be made self-evident. You know, like it used to be?

I wasn't saying the game shouldn't be improved to the point where hopefully we won't need to explain it anymore. What I was saying is that I consider MR locking some functions rather than explaining them the completely wrong approach.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

1 - The interface is ugly as hell/ unfinished  for the "Ressurection" currently. It needs a final pass.

2 - Maybe make it clearer that you will be losing a huge amount of earned XP and that you have limited lives.

 

[marelooke]

On 15/01/2018 at 8:30 PM, Snib said:

I wasn't saying the game shouldn't be improved to the point where hopefully we won't need to explain it anymore. What I was saying is that I consider MR locking some functions rather than explaining them the completely wrong approach.

My argument was more along the lines that due to the way it used to work in the past (most) people learned "good" behaviour without requiring any kind of tutorials...

[Snib]

14 minutes ago, marelooke said:

My argument was more along the lines that due to the way it used to work in the past (most) people learned "good" behaviour without requiring any kind of tutorials...

All true, but we are the ones that stuck around. We don't account for those that left in frustration. 

I may not be entirely happy with how inconsequential death in Warframe has become these days, but the limited revives were a problem in particular for new players, and those are the ones you want to take them away from. Feel free to take them from me though, I don't need them anymore.