Limbo & Fun: A Fan's Feedback

[skRose]

Don't want this thread to sink, this is easily by far one of the fairest renditions to Limbo's kit in player choice. 

To add, a map indicator of all the enemies affected by rift surge + division of rifted plane would be wonderful. As the master of the rift, nothing in this plane should be outside of his knowledge (regardless of sight).
The visuals on screen are distinctly loaded but rather chaotic, and proves difficult when engaged combat to recognize that distinction clearly (thus wasted bullets, time swingin' at air.)  
I can only hope for the next Warframe re-visit, the player base will be able to see these changes shipped. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by skRose
Lil' extra text edit

[chainchompguy3]

On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 3:43 PM, skRose said:

Don't want this thread to sink, this is easily by far one of the fairest renditions to Limbo's kit in player choice. 

Took the words right out of my mouth.

 

I, too have had some additional thoughts to add to the discussion.

 

Stasis has opened up whole new worlds for Limbo. Before, he was constantly scared to bring more than 1 enemy into the rift, as they were just as deadly in the rift as the were outside of it. Stasis has essentially saved Limbo from his own dimension.

But at the same time, I'm beginning to question if it's gone too far.

Stasis completely disables all enemies, allows for dealing all the damage you could ever want, has a fairly long duration, and can be re-cast almost immediately after wearing off.

Before, limbo was constantly vulnerable in the rift, and thus it took tactics to make use of it in a way that actually benefited Limbo.

Now, Limbo is almost never vulnerable, for as long as he is in the rift. While that does effectively make him the "Master of the rift" he was advertised as, it also means that most of the tactic has been taken out of the usage of the rift.

Getting every single enemy on the map into the rift is now a good thing, as it means limbo has effectively locked down the whole map. The only reason NOT to pull an enemy into the rift is if they are a nullifier, or have an eximus aura that Limbo would rather avoid.

 

So I'm now caught on the fence about how I feel about Limbo's stasis. It does wonders for him, but also takes away from the main idea of him using the rift strategically. Going back to before would definitely be harmful, but where we are now isn't exactly great, either.

 

 

In the end, though, I'd like to re-state that while I might want to do some more drastic things to make this rework-proposal "Better", I feel that one of the biggest strengths of this rework is it's simplicity and conservative-ness.

[AbstractLemons]

When not using room covering cataclysm it still feels to have an element of strategy, he just now has the power to take on enemies himself now and doeant have to jump through as many hoops just to a thing.

 

If there is any consideration for neefing stasis at all in regards to how it effects enemies then the most reasonable thing i can think of is giving the ability fall off.

 

Like within 20m of limbo enemies are completely frozen beyon that they are slowed.

I like ops solution to interacting with team mates that would help make it more comfortable to use limbo confidently.

I hope they dont do anything too drastic to stasis if they plan on changing it because i think its mostly fine.

[Smittlez]

I have to say this is very well written. I personally hate playing with Limbo for all the reasons you mentioned. 

He is dapper and thematically cool but his abilities indeed we're implemented without care of your teammates. Hopefully your ideas at the very least give them inspiration.

[PsiWarp]

Stasis is one of the most powerful crowd control abilities in the game. I am actually surprised it remained relatively untouched outside of bugfixes and performance improvements, considering its potency and relatively low player input required to reap the benefits.

It's effectively a button to turn off AI inside the Rift. For a low cost from a Warframe that can regenerate energy infinitely (and earn it through kills), you get a partitioned game pause feature with a long base duration that can be modded to reach past a minute, and has relatively short casting/deactivating animations to facilitate keeping enemy activity suspended semi-permanently. Meanwhile, you can swing your melee to kill enemies that can never fight back. Granted, Limbo must use his other abilities to keep enemies in the Rift, but we've already established that energy really isn't an issue for him.

With incentives like these, I can see why the original intent with Stasis (pause, setup shots, unpause) went astray with High Range High Duration Cataclysm becoming such a popular tactic. It's easy, it's lazy, and it's effective. There's no sense of urgency to keep combat interesting.

But how do we make combat engaging against enemies that can't move? How to make the cost match the effect? How to encourage (but not force) players to use Stasis as it was designed, rather than the byproduct of its benefit (free rein melee and a minute+ of AFKing)?

I might have an idea or two, let's see how this goes (numbers are only for example):

 

Spoiler

 

• Addressing Cost and Effect:
  • Each enemy held captive by Stasis drains 0.5 energy from Limbo per second. This type of drain is the same as Equinox's Pacify, and does not stop passive or active energy regeneration (e.g. Energy Siphon 0.6e/s, Rift Plane 2e/s regen, Limbo's passive 10e/rift-bound kill, Zenurik Energizing Dash 5e/s)
    • 175% Efficiency brings this down to 0.125 energy per enemy, which equates to 2 / 0.125 = 16 Stasis-ed enemies per second to breakeven with the Rift Plane's passive 2 energy per second regen. A single Rift-bound kill yields 10 energy, meaning you can breakeven with 10 / 0.125 = 80 Stasis-ed enemies per second. Combine the two energy restoration methods, and you can breakeven with 96 Stasis-ed enemies per second.
  • Without delving into more math, the point of this change is to keep Limbo actively participating in combat while inside the safety of the Rift by introducing an upkeep, which he can easily sustain with some effort.
  • Only Limbos with Stasis activated will experience this energy drain. Those who do not will be unaffected.
• Addressing Encouragement:
  • Upon deactivating Stasis or it runs out of time, enemies gradually regain movement speed from 0% to 100% over the course of the barrage. As long as there are projectiles still resuming flight, enemies do not regain full movement.
    • This change prevents them from sidestepping prepared projectiles most of the time. The more projectiles exist in the Rift, the longer the slow lasts.
  • This can be tied to the Stasis icon/counter introduced in the OP, with the percentage there serving a dual purpose, showing you exactly how slow enemies will be initially when you deactivate Stasis manually.

 

It results in a powerful safety net (Stasis insta-stop & lingering slow) that Limbo pays a reasonable amount of energy for.

Stasis keeps its high duration and low initial cost, but Limbos are incentivized to deactivate it sooner due to energy drain per enemy, or be proactive in the Rift killing enemies they have frozen using melee. If the upkeep is too high but you want to keep enemies frozen, deactivate Cataclysm and/or use Banish to push out enemies while you deal with more important targets. It also makes High Range Cataclysms less attractive as a result; freezing the map for a lengthy duration ought to require a tremendous amount of energy.

If melee killing is not earning you enough energy to sustain Stasis, then setup some shots meanwhile until you decide the right time to turn off Stasis. If you setup projectiles in the Rift, turning off Stasis doesn't mean instant death for Limbo, as enemies struggle to regain their speed while the barrage you created finds their mark.

Then, combine these changes with the Rift Walk proposal in the OP, and your teammates can have a blast in the Rift too. Multiple Limbos in a squad? Take one for the team by using your Stasis (therefore draining only your energy) while other gentleframes fight alongside you.

[Buzkyl]

A few Thoughts

I generally agree with the overall intent of the tweaks, they provide much needed QoL to Limbo and his team. However I have a few concerns

• Forcing Allies roll to Rift Walk is an even more imposing tweak that Limbo can do to his allies. Without a hint/context clue what is going on, allies parkouring/rolling are going to be frustrated why they're screen is constantly shifting between planes.
• Cataclysm SHOULD force users out of the rift if they are caught in it, purely to balance out the skill. The rift provides near invulnerablilty to Limbo and allies combine with stasis enemies are severely disadvantaged already. This rework like Limbo's helps allies take advantage of the rift easier but at some point Limbo should become vulnerable.  To kill from within the rift is already possible through rift surge.
• In that aspect, 10e per kill in the rift would be also a no for allies. It would make things abit too easy.

Other things I'm glad you suggested

1. All the major U.I additions are fantastic an i greatly appreciate your effort. May i also suggest2 having a marker for all Rift bound enemies so Limbo can keep track?
2. Being able to change planes even within cataclysm is a fantastic change. However it's usage in defense missions woild have to be addressed.

These gives more power to allies if Limbo to use the rift along with Limbo as the overseer, parkour related passive should be treated with care however you're definitely on the right track

 Have my +1

[AcceptYourDeath]

This might sound weird to alot of people but I never had an issue with Limbo  I mean I had an issue with Limbo, I wasn`t good with him back then and I am not with current Limbo 

I welcome any kind of further improvement (no powercreep) for Limbo and especially towards teamplay oriented changes 

 

 

[Azamagon]

Overall, great ideas that I can really see work in practice. Good job!

I have only one concern really; Isn't it potentially too complex? No, not for me personally, but I can see many players being very confused with this (I mean, have you ever looked at, for example, the questions asked in region chat? People's ignorance can be baffling sometimes).

If there is one thing I'd like to add to it all (just to add more "complexity" lol :P) -> How about allowing melee channeled attacks work crossrift, for Limbo included ofc? After all, you're spending energy for your attacks (similar to as if you were using abilities) so it's not without a cost, and it would make Warframes with non-damaging abilities (like Loki, for example) able to deal with enemies a bit more easily. Not only that, but it'd also give melee channeling a distinct useage.

[PsiWarp]

Thanks everyone. With Limbo Prime inching ever closer, it's time to raise valid concerns and provide solid constructive feedback before the System is plunged into the Rift.

[Aldenshae]

The more I think about this rework the more I like it.  It's very fluid, team-oriented and doesn't completely undermine Limbo's concept and gameplay.  As a Limbo player who hates getting in my friends' way, I'd like to see something like this post put in place.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

this is brilliant. tho people would still complain about having to melee enemies in stasis or complain about limbo sitting on defense objective with a god mode bubble.

 

we need more ides like this.

 

seriously crying over here. i would play limbo so much more if not for the hassle he imposes by simply preforming his best.

Edited April 6, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[SixDimensions]

Definitely one of the better suggestions that I've seen out there

[PsiWarp]

I'm curious: how would you guys feel if instead of roll (LShift) to change planes, we use crouch (LCtrl)? Not slide, not bullet jump, actually just doing a simple crouch whether you are standing on the ground or in mid-air (Octavia mains know this trick well). Press it once, switch dimension, press again to switch back.

Since Operator mode was introduced, Void Mode became a crucial skill for all players to learn, one that sees regular use in everyday gameplay. Awakened Tenno know by heart to hold crouch while reviving someone for the invulnerability, or when fighting an Eidolon and Kuva Guardians, or use the invisibility to stealth through Spy missions. If Rift Walk were to adopt the same action, would it feel more intuitive and less intrusive to players who rely on rolling for parkour?

Compared to rolling, crouching is a rare action meant for crossing small gaps, hiding behind low objects that block incoming enemy attacks, obligatory teabagging, and as a combo hotkey to transition into slides and bullet jumps. Rolling on the other hand, is used so often it's become a crucial part of our parkour for quick travel.

I personally would enjoy crouch instead of roll, since crouch still allows other actions to take place during it unlike rolling. Actions like casting one-handed abilities, shooting, reloading, melee. It also makes me feel like I'm actually limbo-ing into and out from the Rift, ha.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I'm still a bit confused about the changes even after reading the TLDR.

 

Are you suggesting that a player would be able to kill a paused enemy VIA unpausing his own projectiles through an action?

it's an interesting idea if that's the case.

Though I sort of feel like it would be a bit weird.  Since you'd have no idea if your projectiles would be enough to kill your target.

Personally I feel like stasis once it ends (be it time run out, limbo ending it early, or projectile limit) should just slow enemies and projectiles for x amount of time uneffected by stats.  that way stasis turning off isn't an insta death for limbo.

I really like the idea of having a visual though.  and the idea of cataclysm not forcing limbo out of the rift plane once it ends.

[chainchompguy3]

14 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

I'm curious: how would you guys feel if instead of roll (LShift) to change planes, we use crouch (LCtrl)? Not slide, not bullet jump, actually just doing a simple crouch whether you are standing on the ground or in mid-air (Octavia mains know this trick well). Press it once, switch dimension, press again to switch back.

Since Operator mode was introduced, Void Mode became a crucial skill for all players to learn, one that sees regular use in everyday gameplay. Awakened Tenno know by heart to hold crouch while reviving someone for the invulnerability, or when fighting an Eidolon and Kuva Guardians, or use the invisibility to stealth through Spy missions. If Rift Walk were to adopt the same action, would it feel more intuitive and less intrusive to players who rely on rolling for parkour?

Compared to rolling, crouching is a rare action meant for crossing small gaps, hiding behind low objects that block incoming enemy attacks, obligatory teabagging, and as a combo hotkey to transition into slides and bullet jumps. Rolling on the other hand, is used so often it's become a crucial part of our parkour for quick travel.

I personally would enjoy crouch instead of roll, since crouch still allows other actions to take place during it unlike rolling. Actions like casting one-handed abilities, shooting, reloading, melee. It also makes me feel like I'm actually limbo-ing into and out from the Rift, ha.

An interesting idea, because yes, it would be less conflicting with normal movement than Roll would.

I guess my only problems with it are as follows:

• If it only triggers on stationary crouch, then it will still be somewhat disruptive, in that the player will be forced to stop moving in order to trigger it. As opposed to rolling, which is a forced movement, in a game where you move.
• Usually any situation that would be "I need to get into the rift NOW!" would potentially have the player trying to jump/bullet jump out of the situation. However, crouching cannot be done midair. Attempting to do so results in a slide-kick, and I would rather not have slide-kick be a rift-toggling action.

How well it is executed is the deciding factor, so I can't really say anything for now.

[PsiWarp]

40 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

An interesting idea, because yes, it would be less conflicting with normal movement than Roll would.

I guess my only problems with it are as follows:

• If it only triggers on stationary crouch, then it will still be somewhat disruptive, in that the player will be forced to stop moving in order to trigger it. As opposed to rolling, which is a forced movement, in a game where you move.
• Usually any situation that would be "I need to get into the rift NOW!" would potentially have the player trying to jump/bullet jump out of the situation. However, crouching cannot be done midair. Attempting to do so results in a slide-kick, and I would rather not have slide-kick be a rift-toggling action.

How well it is executed is the deciding factor, so I can't really say anything for now.

Indeed, making players need to be stationary to cross planes would be problematic.

I am not entirely sure if crouching can be done in mid-air or not, since playing as Octavia I've noticed that if I briefly tap (not hold) the crouch key while I am in the air after a stationary jump or during an aim glide, the change in camera movement suggests I did do a crouch then (and it counts toward Metronome synccing for Nocturne). If I did hold down crouch then it would go right into a slide-kick as you said.

[SarcasmMagic]

@PsiWarp
Hi,
Very good and detailed suggestions on Limbo changes, liked almost all from what You wrote.

One issue I clearly see is: All in suggested mechanics is around buff, which u can use as "roll" and disable as "backflip". So when I want JUST roll - I need roll twice, and since 3 of Limbo abilities give rift buff(and if Limbo in party have a lot of range) all I'm gonna do if I don't want that buff - backflip alltime.

Also maybe You find interesting my suggestion about stasis change:
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/945253-give-limbo-more-freedom/

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

At Limbo's current complexity, who doesn't have and probably needs his own tutorial in the codex, wouldn't it be more efficient to simplify him? The current suggestions are okay for someone that plays or knows how to play Limbo. But if you cast them on someone that has never played Limbo ever, won't they get confused even more so than now? Some players don't even know they can get out of the rift by rolling.

I like someone's suggestion of having an indicator on top of rifted enemies so the Limbo player can keep track of all rifted enemies. Losing track of a rifted enemy running around can cause confusion for your squad. It also makes sense like Limbo can feel enemies in his rift. They'll also appear on the radar and you can track them past visual obstruction like walls.

I wish they'd make it so that if a player not using Limbo gets sent in the rift, something on the hud says "roll to exit rift." Something that simple can avoid confusion. Sure some people will think you're trolling them because you keep Banishing them but at least its not Loki switching you off a cliff and taking off all your buffs.

Stasis ability to stop bullets is a caveat. I understand why they did it. Its to cap the power of this ability. Or does it? Melee is way stronger than primaries or secondaries anyway so why not just let friendly bullets be unaffected. If they really want to put a weakness on it, turn it into a channeling. Limbo never runs out of energy anyway because of his 10 energy per kill in the rift mechanic.

Cataclysm needs consistency. It lets you pick up a data mass but you can't insert it in a console? That doesn't make sense. You should be able to interact with anything inside Cataclysm. Go ahead, put it over a fan or a panel that you need to break to get into another room and watch as players rage quite because they can't do anything about it.

Now I don't want Catabomb back but it would be nice if Rift Surge's radial banish dealt 500 damage to enemies it affects. Even if it cost Limbo 10 energy for each instance of radial banish that pops. I haven't been playing that long but even I know that potential destructive ability is identical to the original Molecular Prime.

And put some kind of synergy with Banish and Cataclysm. I know you can't "pull" enemies into the rift plane with Banish but at the very least make it so that Limbo can do that when he's standing inside Cataclysm. There's always that one annoying tar moa that never wants to come close.

Edited April 15, 2018 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[DenoDagor]

In regards to the original post: Nice ideas overall, don't think any would create more problems than they would solve, so it's good in my book.

Now, my idea is just a random concept and i haven't given it a whole lot of thought:

Basically the Rift could be a literal other dimension, like you get teleported to a "room" similar to the simulacrum. This place is physically different than the normal mission, and enemies thrown into the rift would go into this other room. This would require some changing on limbo's 3 and 4, but thats just more options for cool new interactions.

And since it would be a different physical realm you wouldn't be able to move in it and come back out in another room of the mission, because THAT WOULD BE HELL to bugfix and people would get stuck in walls coming out of the Rift all the time. So maybe Limbo could have a "portal" you'd aim at a place in the normal world (or maybe multiple portals) and when inside the rift you'd see them like Nova's portals, but when you enter them you leave back to the normal world where the portal was placed in. Example: You place aim at the other side of the room like 100m away from you, you go into the rift, there at maybe 50m away from you there will be a portal when you enter it you'll come out at the first portal you place outside the rift (they could be color-coded or with different shapes if you had multiple). So unless you use this portal mechanic anything that enters the rift will come back at the exact point they were before going into it, doesn't matter how much they walked inside the rift.

[PsiWarp]

@needit A valid concern. It's one of the key complaints of tying plane switch to the parkour system, as no matter which maneuver you tie it to, it has to slow down the player to achieve this effect. I'm only using it for the idea because it is Limbo's way into/out of the Rift, and how Banish already works for other players. I certainly welcome suggestions for a smoother transitioning between planes that doesn't involve slowing down our movement.

Your idea has merit. A slow instead of stop Stasis is worth exploring IMO, but as Thaylien pointed out, bullets will still kill Limbo at top speed due to how hit-scan works. If they can be slowed on the technical side, a bullet time-esque Stasis is a good step toward a friendly Limbo experience and can be more fun, because players are compelled to dodge instead of sitting still. As it is, Stasis is powerful and safe CC, but gets really boring really quickly.

@(PS4)mahoshonenfox I agree, Limbo would still be prone to learning curve problems due to lack of visual aids and contextual hints. I fully support more UI additions to help players learn about Limbo and the Rift, as well as ways to better identify rift-bound enemies at a glance. Honestly, a short but sweet hint banner (if you have hints enabled in options) like Kuva Siphon and Transference would help a lot; it would pop up when you first get buffed by Limbo, instructing you that you can use whatever hotkeys to roll to toggle dimensions.

That "Rift Sight" idea is gold. I would love to use high range Limbo effectively, but when I try it with Rift Surge everything just becomes a mess to manage due to stragglers left in the Rift that I couldn't find (I would just try to Banish everything in sight out from the Rift like a madman). Sometimes the Banish ability icon timer would track them, sometimes it won't, which further adds to the confusion.

@DenoDagor Thanks. That idea is whack-y in a good sense, although a bit complex for me to fully grasp at this time. Is there anyway to prevent Limbo from gobbling up the enemies inside the room and denying teammates access to it? That's my primary concern.

 

[DenoDagor]

On 16/04/2018 at 12:58 AM, PsiWarp said:

Thanks. That idea is whack-y in a good sense, although a bit complex for me to fully grasp at this time. Is there anyway to prevent Limbo from gobbling up the enemies inside the room and denying teammates access to it? That's my primary concern.

I haven't fully developed the idea, but most likely they'd have a limited time within the rift like with Banish now. Don't know any other way that'd prevent this and also not give TOO much control of the rift to the rest of the squad. But maybe limbo could have some kind of "area buff" that allows the squad to go in and out of the rift as they see fit, but i have nothing solid thought out yet.

[ToolboxMotley]

This is a thing I desire. o_o

[Sasuda]

On 2/3/2018 at 11:30 PM, PsiWarp said:

Stasis now keeps track of which projectiles and bullets belong to each player in the Rift. All projectiles and bullets will still count toward Stasis' universal 300 limit.

The changes sound fantastic, solid. However this point struck me because... it's most likely impossible. It's going to add a lot of tacked on data, the main reason the limit is 300 is to prevent crashes from too much going on at once. Doing this would affect the limit and probably cut it to like 75 optimistically. This is the same reason projectiles don't get released at the same time. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Stasis effects are possible by delaying all normal hit-scan shots and projectiles in their most basic form, tied to cataclysm and not to Warframes.

But trying to think of another way along with trying to follow the many posts people have made, bullets may have to have their effects applied real time to locations within the rift rather than have their locations paused by stasis.
This may be difficult to describe but bear with me, so what this means is when you shoot your damage is still delayed in similar way but it's stored as damage on enemies rather than suspended bullets and projectiles. That way it could be still tied to the Warframe that caused the damage and could be activated when the Warframe leaves the Rift. It would likely mean no more suspended projectiles waiting to fly, with the exception perhaps of Limbo's projectiles.
Stasis will still retain it's projectile limit and percentage and stuff so it's not extendable forever, allies will still take away from the limit.

I hope that I'm wrong about this, and it's not an issue for your tweaks suggested though.

[PsiWarp]

@Sasuda I believe that is how Nyx's Mind Control and Nidus' Parasitic Link work, but applied to Limbo's abilities in general and on a much larger scale (multiple targets). It sounds doable, but I do wonder if the amount of data tracked by the server would be more or less than keeping count with the in-flight objects and their ownership to which player. Can't imagine the technical hurdles DE would have to go through.

Nevertheless, it would be an interesting change for sure. If the damage is dealt when the enemies leave the Rift too, it would also encourage Limbo to kick them out once he deems they have taken enough damage. Best point is that they will die to ranged weapon attacks eventually, since then their damage intervals would be tied to Limbo's ability durations.

[Chatterlal]

This balancing has to be one of the best things I've ever read. I do think that the 10 energy per enemy killed to the entire team is a little ridiculous but ... then again Trinity exists. So meh. If DE would implement this, I could finally use limbo in a pug without feeling guilty. Here's hoping they do!

Edited May 6, 2018 by Chatterlal