Dev Workshop: Beam Weapons Revisited!

[shut]

On 2/20/2018 at 12:46 PM, SortaRandom said:

So the Ignis and IgnisW are actually going to have cone-shaped hitboxes instead of the wonky "spherical-AoE-at-the-end-of-a-beam" mechanic they have now? Sounds good to me!

But having a 3m radius at the end of a nearly 30m beam (compared to the current 5m radius, at the end of any beam length) seems awfully narrow for a flamethrower. Are we going to be able to expand this with Firestorm?

So, Update 22.13.3 happened. I just did some testing.

The Ignis' hitboxes are not cone-shaped. It's EXACTLY the same spherical-AoE-at-the-end-of-a-beam system, except:
- The central beam is wider. By 15cm.
- The spherical AoE had its range decreased from 5m to 3m. (Expandable with Firestorm.)
- The weapon is far less responsive, requiring M1 to be held for a noticeable fraction of a second before it can even deal damage. At point-blank range.

 

What did the Ignis do to deserve this?

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Shaloman said:

Oh golly gee whiz! Thanks DE! we've always wanted a 91%damage reduction. Nothing makes the game more fun that useless weapons. Everyone's going to love this!

Quanta Vs lvl 155 Napalms x6. Not an optimized build either. I have polarity conflicts so I couldn't mod for Crit.

Synapse for fun.

Most beams weapons are performing where single-target damage should be in this game.

I'm personally tired of not having to aim at anything and being rewarded just the same so this is a welcome buff.

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

So, Update 22.13.3 happened. I just did some testing.

The Ignis' hitboxes are not cone-shaped. It's EXACTLY the same spherical-AoE-at-the-end-of-a-beam system, except:
- The central beam is wider. By 15cm.
- The spherical AoE had its range decreased from 5m to 3m. (Expandable with Firestorm.)
- The weapon is far less responsive, requiring M1 to be held for a noticeable fraction of a second before it can even deal damage. At point-blank range.

What did the Ignis do to deserve this?

 

I noticed the loss in width as well.

It's not even close to it's original box breaking legacy.

I couldn't get it to hit 2 targets side-by-side at max range using Firestorm. Punch-through or otherwise.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)FrellMeDead said:

Not to sound mean but you apparently you don't understand how critical chance works or haven't had CC setups before. Given that the Amprex had/has a 50% critical chance thus reducing our world reduce the amount of damage possible with CC. The amount of base damage has been increased so that helps some. Regardless it limits how you are able to mod the weapon. Basically reducing how it is used/played.  That's not right given that they are reducing range of the season as well.

The bigger issue is the reduction in range which basically requires the use of sinister reach mod now. Requiring mods for no reason is wrong. Especially since it screws up anyone who would use the Amprex and opens them up to a lot of damage given how close you need to be to shoot the enemy.

but wasnt there literly only 1 build for the amprex? forcing u to use crit mods. seration and 2 elimentals bassed on faction? or am i blind, i have the gun and you cant tell me otherwise

[TheHydrolyst]

Thanks for the rework, big beam weapon user here.

When are we going to see an infested weapon get primed?!

We need more good wraith and vandal stuff stat.

We need to be able to purchase more riven cap from the dojo, so when trading rivens 

we can easily buy more cap. And not have to fly back home and get more and go back.

Love the new night/day indicator for the plains, but i still find myself running back and forth constantly

checking how much time till night. Could we get a 'Till Night: 00:00" timer or something?

Lots of Love,

BTD

[(PSN)FrellMeDead]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

but wasnt there literly only 1 build for the amprex? forcing u to use crit mods. seration and 2 elimentals bassed on faction? or am i blind, i have the gun and you cant tell me otherwise

The Amprex can and has been modded by players differently depending on available mods. Yes the CC/CD was the most common but the status loadout or a mix of CC and status loadouts have been used. Additionally since Rivens were implemented it was actually easier to mod for other things then just CC given that some rivens had damage/multi/and either CC/CD or status all in one. This allowed for different loadouts in elemental damage type other then just electricity, corrosive or radiation. The reduction doesn't necessarily remove these options but it does reduce them and it being done without reason. As I said already the range of fire is the bigger issue. It's a very stupid and pointless change that only limits players further and forces them to use that mod otherwise you basically have to be within melee distance. It's just dumb and serves no purpose. 

[shut]

On 2/21/2018 at 7:26 PM, Xzorn said:

 

I noticed the loss in width as well.

It's not even close to it's original box breaking legacy.

I couldn't get it to hit 2 targets side-by-side at max range using Firestorm. Punch-through or otherwise.

Were you trying to hit them with the sphere, or was the narrow beam just squeezing in between?

 

For those curious, here's what the hitboxes looked like before:

And while I haven't tested this one extensively yet, this is what I think they look like now:

where:
- the red-shaded region only hits on the initial tick. (You can kind of visualize this as the blue sphere being thrust forward when M1 is initially pressed... although Firestorm only affects the blue sphere at the end.)
- the orange line is the "central beam", which deals the listed damage.
- the blue sphere is the AoE we all know and love. It deals 0.50x the listed damage (although I haven't tested post-22.13.3 yet).
- the Ignis still reaches 20m instead of the Wraith's 27m.

Note that the second image isn't zoomed out or anything; the hitbox is just that much thinner.

 

I had a 100% Blast Status build before the rework, and it was absolutely unstoppable at breaking boxes and knocking down anything in front of me. Now, there's a lot more Blast procs happening per target... but that doesn't exactly help me, since the first proc is the only one that mattered.

I'm happy that beam weapons are viable and all, but... this is going to be tough for me to get used to. 

[(XBOX)InfectedMonkey]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Quanta Vs lvl 155 Napalms x6. Not an optimized build either. I have polarity conflicts so I couldn't mod for Crit.

Synapse for fun.

Most beams weapons are performing where single-target damage should be in this game.

I'm personally tired of not having to aim at anything and being rewarded just the same so this is a welcome buff.

Are you running these is some test server AFTER the weapon's reworks? And does this mean the Quanta went from being a beast to being a God?

[Xzorn]

5 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

Were you trying to hit them with the sphere, or was the narrow beam just squeezing in between?

For those curious, here's what the hitboxes looked like before:

And while I haven't tested this one extensively yet, this is what I think they look like now:

 

I was attempting to hit two targets side-by-side with the sphere at the end of the beam. I actually didn't notice the secondary rectangular "puff" had also shortened in width though I did notice the rapid-fire trick to semi exploit that puff effect doesn't seem to work anymore due to a decent delay, not that it would be required anymore since it's main purpose was to overcome the status/sec mechanic.

My personal taste for the weapon's value aside I can really only argue Ignis feels more like any other beam weapon than a flame thrower. Having used Ignis 40% out of 4,000 in-mission hours it's rather unwanted. I didn't mind the weapon wasn't a DPS monster. It has a use and it was good at it. Now it just feels confused.

[Xzorn]

28 minutes ago, (Xbox One)InfectedMonkey said:

Are you running these is some test server AFTER the weapon's reworks? And does this mean the Quanta went from being a beast to being a God?

 

I'm on PC, the changes went live a few hours ago.

It kills in about the same speed as my Sicarus Prime. Why I was ranting on another post that this is the bar for where single target damage should be. Sick of not having a good reason to aim at things.

[(XBOX)InfectedMonkey]

Oh man. That's awesome. We might get all the weapons rework in one big update. Can you test the synoid gamicor and or the atomos in there new states? If not I'll just be as patient as I possibly can. 

[shut]

14 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I was attempting to hit two targets side-by-side with the sphere at the end of the beam. I actually didn't notice the secondary rectangular "puff" had also shortened in width though I did notice the rapid-fire trick to semi exploit that puff effect doesn't seem to work anymore due to a decent delay, not that it would be required anymore since it's main purpose was to overcome the status/sec mechanic.

My personal taste for the weapon's value aside I can really only argue Ignis feels more like any other beam weapon than a flame thrower. Having used Ignis 40% out of 4,000 in-mission hours it's rather unwanted. I didn't mind the weapon wasn't a DPS monster. It has a use and it was good at it. Now it just feels confused.

I always used the rapid-fire trick to repeatedly create a giant cylindrical "dead zone" where everything's lying face down and Bombard rockets don't exist.

Now that the rapid-fire trick is dead, I have to drag the spherical AoE across the ground awkwardly. Not so fun when you're surrounded by enemies who aren't standing above or below you.
And to reliably cancel Bombard rockets, now I have to... (shudder)... aim.

 

This update is my nightmare.

[StoneGolem183]

The amprex was a weapon that was bad until you use a lot of forma to make it into a grade A crit weapon with really bad range to balance it out. Now it's a grade C not-good-at-anything hybrid weapon and the forma used to make it good is now completely wasted in.

They should have refunded the forma if they were going to make such a huge change to the weapon like that.

[Xzorn]

4 minutes ago, SortaRandom said:

I always used the rapid-fire trick to repeatedly create a giant cylindrical "dead zone" where everything's lying face down and Bombard rockets don't exist.

Now that the rapid-fire trick is dead, I have to drag the spherical AoE across the ground awkwardly. Not so fun when you're surrounded by enemies who aren't standing above or below you.
And to reliably cancel Bombard rockets, now I have to... (shudder)... aim.

 

Yea, that's where I'm conflicted.

I'm praising the DPS of these other weapons which require good aim to fully perform and they rightfully perform amazingly but.....

Ignis was never a DPS weapon to me. It was for sweeping trash, breaking boxes and Utility. I didn't mind that it was bad damage because aiming at lvl 40's when I'm used to fighting lvl 300+ enemies feels like a nuisance but at the same time I very much look forward to aiming at some lvl 400 Napalm heads.

Oh well, If it's the price to pay compared to the other weapons.

  .....I pay it gladly.

[StoneGolem183]

RIP all non crit beam weapons.  Amprex and Synapse, they took 6-7 forma to make them a good, but very limited Grade A crit weapons and they got changed (nerfed) to grade C hybrid weapons.  The only weapons worse then hybrid weapons are raw damage weapons.

They should have at least refunded the forma if they were going to make such major changes to high forma builds.

[Agnaaiu]

22 minutes ago, StoneGolem183 said:

The only weapons worse then hybrid weapons are raw damage weapons.

That's weird, because pretty much everyone with clue about weapons has the opinion that hybrid crit/status weapons are the strongest in the game and beat pure crit or pure status weapons every day.

[Xzorn]

8 minutes ago, Agnaaiu said:

That's weird, because pretty much everyone with clue about weapons has the opinion that hybrid crit/status weapons are the strongest in the game and beat pure crit or pure status weapons every day.

 

[pAULEE]

Hi all at DE, Rebecca,

I remember how the flux et al used to work, so I'm interested in how this will play out. 
 

Didnt see much change in the Convectrix' stats so im not sure what to think yet! 

 

re the puncture on Ignis and other throwers : 
W H I P S  rework needed !

Please, PLEASE.. add some similar clipping changes to the whips in this game -

it is just too depressing entering survivals to see a player whipping into a wall and killing everything on the other side.

i mean whips that somehow whip through walls and kill everything in 1-shot and red critting . for goodness sake

IMHO It reeks of exploiting, and it destroys low level survival runs especially when those players seem to demand i stay in the little room and 'farm'. ive been told i dont know how to play survival - (and there was me surviving an hour and a half on the survival event!!!) , and been subjected to rather toxic reactions from these whippers too ! @@ 

Yes whips need something extra if this is fixed, but ok adding them as a duel-wield and having mods that disam or maybe drag, like MK Skorpion, could be fun.

Anyway it looks like the code is there to do checks for the Ignis-weapons so please include this for whips 

 

regards !

 

pAULEE

 

[fatpig84]

Amprex and Synapase look like they got quite a significant "adjustment".

But we shall see.

[DawnFalcon]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)InfectedMonkey said:

Oh man. That's awesome. We might get all the weapons rework in one big update. Can you test the synoid gamicor and or the atomos in there new states? If not I'll just be as patient as I possibly can. 

 

Quanta damage is much higher. But it has a relatively small magazine and 8.3% of of the overall amo (in terms of "time it can fire for") it did before. Ungood.

Synoid Gamacore has had a massive nerf to damage. Amo economy is a fair bit better, but it lacks the punch it had before.

Atomos damage is basically identical, and it does plenty of procs if it's jumping. 10% nerf to amo efficiency. I'm... not really that impressed.

(The 0.8s spinup time really hurts the lowest firetime/magazine weapons - Quanta, Atomos, Embolist, Flux Rifle)

[AcceptYourDeath]

Am 20.2.2018 um 20:02 schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

Once this launches (hopefully this week on PC), we're hoping for some practical feedback on the changes and your thoughts!

I lilke these changes alot! These weapons became simply comparable and competitive now to the majority of our arsenal. However I think MR ranks are really off for many beam weapons. Syndoid Gammacor is everything but MR 7  for what it can do  Atmos is also very questionable with MR5 - since all these weapons changes and buffs partially also had the goal in mind to put weapons more where they would belong in a progression system. 

I would never tell a new player he should wait for a Glaxion on MR 8 and skip Synoid Gammacor 

I had a look on most beam weapons and they are quite impressive and yet I think removing status/sec wasn`t the best decision from the perspective of having more variety. They are very same`ish to regular weapons now. As underperforming as they were I still liked how you could go about moding them in a different way with fire rate instead status chance. 

 

[StarShadow29]

Hello DE,

              I picked this game back up last december to see how my old love is doing and I was not dissapointed. This game has a lot of love put into it and I'm pretty sure that like me many other people play this game because of it. When I started climbing the star chart, I was stuck at a certain point due to not having enough good weapons and mods. The first weapon that I actually got that allowed me to clear the star chart was the ignis, and I immediately bought the ignis wraith. Since then I fell in love with that weapon. Sure it had its flaws, the main one being its status procing and damage ticks, and because of that I took up other status weapons like the braton prime and have been using that. (Love what you did for the braton prime.) But I still held onto hope because I heard that a rework for beam weapons was coming. When this thread was released I was so excited that the ignis is gonna be fixed. When the changed were released and I tried it out, I felt so heartbroken.

 

To me Ignis prime was always this weapon -

 

- High mobility because of the ability to parkour and reliably hit with the weapon.

- Status procing a whole group and let the statuses do the work while you can keep damaging them. Bassically a CC.

 

These 2 points were what made the ignis so dear to my heart.

 

The update finally fixed the status procing on the weapon and increased the damage which was very much needed, and the ammo efficiency and the low zoom level on aim is just so so good for the playstyle variety. But everything else was systematically designed to destroy this weapon called the ignis wraith.

I can deal with punch through, even though it is a huge huge nerf to the ignis to go from 3m to 0m.

I can deal with the range change as I just need to refine my playstyle according to it.

But DE I want to know why did anyone think that going so much overboard with the damage ramp up was a good idea. 10 percent to a 100 over 0.8 second with only 1 second to ramp down destroys this weapon.

10 percent damage is too low because since the initial damage is so low, we are forced to keep the pointer on the enemy instead of being able to parkour and dodge enemy bullets and never stop the pressing the attack button

0.8 seconds is too long since we are stuck in that state for so long. The ignis's forte is group combat and 0.8 seconds is too long to stay in that state because the typical combat time with the ignis is 2-3 seconds discounting the rarer bulky mobs and spending a third or even half of that time with very low damage, damages the ignis so much.

1 second is too short because wea can't find combat that soon without being a god at the game and devoting you focus on only keeping up the damage without enjoying the game. It is also too short because any ability cast will reset your progress, forcing you to either choose a frame that doesn't require casting that much and only focus on using the ignis which limits and saps away the fun out of the game or use your abilities (which is indispensible if you are running frames like trinity or SoS nekros or many others) and have to restart your ramp up again.

One might think that the 1st second of the fight is not that important but for the ignis, it is. It decides atleast 75% of the total time using an ignis with how it is now.

Having only one issue out of the 3 above is manageable but when you put all 3 of them together, it saps away the fun out of the weapon. Right now the playstyle you are encouraging is using a tank frame and absorb all damage while moving down all opposition while being locked into that state or risk being not very effective. The reason I loved the ignis is because of its versitality and It breaks my heart so much seeing it turn into a totally unfamiliar weapon. Alienating all ingis wraith players from their beloved weapon and bringing them pain. You wanted to balance out the extra damage and good status procs with nerfs to it accompanying the buffs but please, do not change the playstyle of a weapon that people have grown attached to and call it a simple nerf.

The punch through reduction and the range change are heavy enough nerfs. Please remove the damage ramp up.

I write this with nothing but love in my heart for you guys. I absolutely adore you guys. But this time you got it wrong. I write this with a lot of hope. Hope that you will consider what I am bringing up and not just disregard it but at the same time a part of me is filled with despair that the weapon I loved might be in this state for a long time to come because not too many people vouch for the ignis and that this weapon will be considered "fixed" and not be given another look.

 

Love,

 An Ignis Wraith fan.

 

P.S:- Changing the status from 30% - 29% has no other effect on gameplay other than ticking off my OCD when the status becomes 98% instead of a clean 100% with the 4 status mods >:(

[iceyShardZ]

20 hours ago, SaiSoul7895 said:

This is actually a good suggestion. I'll do it now.

Do I post the video on discord or here ?

did you post a video? :P

 

[TwilitAngel]

So... the beam weapons I kept... Amprex, Atomos, Ignis Wraith, Phage, & Quanta Vandal... are godly now. I did a few tests tweaking my builds back and forth using a lvl140 Corrupted Heavy Gunner as a test dummy. The beam weapon changes are really strong compared to what they used to be. Crit/Status hybrid is the way to go. Even though they read low chances, they're not at all. About 40% area and they just shred enemies like a hot knife through butter.

I love how efficient Amprex is with ammo now. Atomos still using the +range mod for beam linking reasons, but it's amazing with crit. Less than 2 clips to kill 6 lvl140 CHGs. It will melt things at lower levels. Phage ammo per sec went up, but worth it. Hunter Munitions is great on it. We'll see after IPS changes, but Vicious Spread works in that spot as well since how the weapon fires. Ignis Wraith can kill high levels now. I'm also using HM since it's good for now. My Quanta Vandal I never maxed out, but I'm still impressed with the beam damage as I have it.

I am overly impressed by these changes, hopefully no nerfs, but we'll see. DE gave me a reason to pick up my beam weapons again. :)

Tip: You can remove Lethal Torrent from beam sidearms. You really don't need it on them now. Also helps save some ammo.

PS: I think Volt mains love this change... for reasons. ;)

[trunks013]

Well ive tryed it.

One of my friend was super upset and i was looking at the specs for the changes and i was like "Wait thats not a nerf at all its a super buff" but my friend was not convinced.

I took my current build on my ignis and went against lvl135 bombard. Not only they were perma stun but they were also dead after 100 ammo.

The ammo effeciency is just insane now . 

For the dammage its insane how the status can stack fast now.

I'm very pleased with those changes.

I also tryed unranked flux rifle and cycron and wow that was funny. Empty the first one swap weapon empty the second one . Take back the first one empty it and then rince and repeat. It was hillarious.

14 hours ago, Helaton said:

Just one question for the battery powered weapons. Can they reload when they are holstered? 

If that's the case...that's actually pretty awesome in its own way. Flux Rifle + Cycron forever?

yes its working but honestly you must have a frame or be moded to swap fast else you will see it being completely charged before even finishing the weapon swap ^.^