Why Corpus End-Game is a Real Turn-Off

[fartloud]

1 hour ago, (PS4)iQuedas said:

So, Corpus are not fun because they have anti-cheesing mechanics?

they are not fun because they disabled what most of the game is. lol

 

seriously though, i think the mechanics are just boring. a certain ability disable doesnt matter, even though there isnt much lore to support existance of them.

[_Vortus_]

1 hour ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

 

Get yourself caught in a bad situation, chances are, you messed up.    Blaming poor tactics on the game, gg you.   In the few instances when its part of the game, IE a defense of some type or something along those lines, you see it as a bad thing, I see it as a challenge.

Nullifiers do exactly what they are supposed to, no more, no less.     The attributes of the nullifier bubble are different, they are its own stat.    Just like Warframe powers.   Some are affected by line of sight.   Others are not.   Its unique, but because its unique and requires being dealt with as such, players don't like it.   Heaven forbid that some of a players arsenal not be optimal in every situation they come into. 

Don't like the swap times, put on a mod for it.    Hmmm oh damn, thats a non meta mod and a band aid to boot.   Can't do that. 

[EvilChaosKnight]

30 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

-snip-

I have a strange feeling you are using a different version of English language than I do. Like... uh. Mine is from 2018, late March, planet Earth in the Sol system of the Milky Way galaxy. What's yours?
The only part in my post in any shape or form related to yours is the weapon swap speed. Which, as I've noted, is ping-dependent for some reason which is a large problem on game engine level, and no mods can fix it. Do you even understand what it means?

Do you understand at least half of the sentenses I've written before hitting that "reply" button? XD
No? I feel like the answer is actually "No".
Or, maybe, you just like to talk to yourself after quoting someone and make yourself a 1-man echo chamber? And ignore every other point along the way because why not I guess.

Using snipers is "poor tactics". Using launchers is "poor tactics". "Use Speed Holster to fix issues on the level of game engine and networking." 
Seriously. Like... I think I'll let you be.

[_Vortus_]

@EvilChaosKnight

My snipers seem to work fine.   As do my launchers.   Along with all my other weapons.   The same for Speed Holster/Streamlined Form.   One of us is doing it wrong. 

Sigh, you are correct in at least one thing.   We both agree to just let it be.    So please continue to press the easy button, I am sure it will happen eventually.

[Gandergear]

52 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

@EvilChaosKnight

My snipers seem to work fine.   As do my launchers.   Along with all my other weapons.   The same for Speed Holster/Streamlined Form.   One of us is doing it wrong. 

Sigh, you are correct in at least one thing.   We both agree to just let it be.    So please continue to press the easy button, I am sure it will happen eventually.

Nah man youre just white knighting to ignore valid complaints

[True_Naeblis]

For some reason devs in many games think that the way to make higher content challenging is to suddenly take away all the mechanics that you're used to having available in your arsenal. Waves of Nullifiers are not fun. At least Scrambus units give a hint to their presence and appear one at a time for the most part. Bubbles on bubbles on bubbles and inability to deal with them because the ospreys are stuck in a wall or attached to the bubbles edge are not fun.

It is a poor design feature in any title to empower players and then suddenly take those abilities away on a whim again and again in higher content. Very shortsighted to put it mildly.

[Gilmaesh]

i'm ok with Nullifiers but they could get some polishing

The drone is often hiding behind the bubble, it should be up and always visible. There are already a lot of time where it can't be shoot because of the tileset.

The drone should also have a hp limit, no scalling.

Reduce the nullifiers spawn rate. There are way to much nullifier spawning at the moment, it doesn't matter if you have speed holster or any other bandaid mods (we should be able to switch faster than we do anyway).

 

[BlackCoMerc]

41 minutes ago, True_Naeblis said:

For some reason devs in many games think that the way to make higher content challenging is to suddenly take away all the mechanics that you're used to having available in your arsenal. Waves of Nullifiers are not fun. At least Scrambus units give a hint to their presence and appear one at a time for the most part. Bubbles on bubbles on bubbles and inability to deal with them because the ospreys are stuck in a wall or attached to the bubbles edge are not fun.

It is a poor design feature in any title to empower players and then suddenly take those abilities away on a whim again and again in higher content. Very shortsighted to put it mildly.

Agreed.

Nullifier is lore shattering and disrespectful to the games world building. That's bad enough.

But it's also mechanically unsound. Don't empower your players, and then selectively Rob them of powers while claiming to challenge them. That's just lazy. It's why boss fights in this game are among the worst in modern gaming.

[Skyrage]

I have to agree with the OP. I actually had a similar train of thoughts about the Corpus faction just a week ago or so and concluded that the solution is pretty simple really. Nullifiers etc should be something VERY special to the corpus first and foremost. As in a room defense mechanic/trap or perhaps an additional alarm tier. As for making the faction itself more interesting - they are a frigging tech faction and should revolve around technology a lot more and not rely on this binary switch that pretty much turn a warframe off entirely.

A basic example: a net based ability that slows a Tenno down - a bit like the one that bursas have except that it is stuck on the player. The catch being that a single net does not affect you all that much but a stack of 3-4 will seriously hamper your movement speed. It lasts for at least 10 seconds and requires a certain number of melee hits to get rid of. Additional nets reset duration time and number of hits required to get rid of but movement penalty stack. Attack speed melee being the obvious main counter to this particular trap.

A bunch of other tech in brief - delivery method is whatever feels appropriate:

Disruption effect which doesn't nullify but reduces ability efficiency. With stacking of course. This is as close as regular nullifying should ever go in my opinion!

Another disabling effect in whatever form would be one which causes your ranged weapons (except bows) to malfunction, wasting ammo when fired. This one should be pretty nasty if the debuff ends up stacking a few times...and frankly the game really needs something that makes ammo a bit more meaningful!

Then you have the good old classic weapon damage reduction debuff...extra fun if you forget to remove your extinguished dragon key from your inventory!!

Elemental havoc, which randomizes the elemental damage that you dish out. This one is a bit more extreme of an idea as it could also be a potential buff but hey, experimental tech...

Hacking - temporarily turn your companion to an enemy. And of course reverses mod effects! Shield boost becomes shield drain and all that fun stuff! Obviously does not affect pets. Frankly pets should be affected by the Grineer instead! "Down boy, I SAID DOWN!!"

In short, Corpus should be like this massive debuff faction that tries to counter Tenno which can become a HUGE pain in the ass if they manage to stack debuffs on you. But you as a player will always be able to use your abilities and...well, have fun? That is unless you are trapped in a nullifier room that is cause let's be honest. Nullifying is a part of Corpus but this should be their ultimate tech and thus, very special. As for whether frames like Oberon and the like should be able to cancel these particular debuffs is also up for discussion.

 

My 2 cents anyway...

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, (PS4)iQuedas said:

So, Corpus are not fun because they have anti-cheesing mechanics?

Anti-cheesing as in what?

As far as i have seen they do not stop the ignis, spin2win, crit-overkill or status overloading.

6 hours ago, _Vortus_ said:

Your opinion, not mine.   I like the design of them and don't have issues dealing with them.   Then again, I liked the previous one as well.   The drone is difficult to hit sometimes, as it should be.  Any weapon can take down the bubble if patient.    Now, for speed running and the fact that they have to slow down to deal with them, no pity on that end.    It seems like anything that cannot be dealt with on the fly, or killed in a few seconds or less needs nerfed or is a bad design or a band aid. 

As @EvilChaosKnight already pointed out their design is a failed one.

They do not stop the meta weapons, they fail to adress the power spam because their very presence puts you in need to spam more.

Their bubbles are not physical so they dont effect speed runners in any way.

 

Look at what i have suggested upper and ask yourself does that look like some failed band-aid for a factions general weakness?

Look at the Nox vs the Nullfier, which one of them looks like a fair and well designed encounter?

[True_Naeblis]

12 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Agreed.

Nullifier is lore shattering and disrespectful to the games world building. That's bad enough.

But it's also mechanically unsound. Don't empower your players, and then selectively Rob them of powers while claiming to challenge them. That's just lazy. It's why boss fights in this game are among the worst in modern gaming.

No doubt about that. Ridiculously long invulnerability phases, especially early on with instances such as Vay Hek with nothing telling new players to simply run to the end, are the epitome of poor design. As is the inconsistency of empowering players in one instance then making the best load outs 95% ineffective through gimmicks and leaving them one shot on the floor because of mechanics that they haven't learned to cheese quickly enough. This game doesn't have the subtlety to be Dark Souls, where one mistake should cost a player the mission. Worse still, it never feels like "Oh, I just need to get a little better at that" to get through something, it feels like players just need to find a way to out cheese the cheese, and then move on to something that's actually fun.

That's present in other areas, too, when sortie requirements suddenly mean sacrificing a necessary mod slot to put in a resistance mod, only for that to mean that while movement isn't as bad or DoT damage isn't as bad, the aimbot enemies are shredding you because dodging really doesn't work as it should to avoid fire. Corpus are simply a constant reminder of places where combat design has gone wrong, but they aren't the only ones. I know that design takes up a lot of time, but I can't believe the devs incorporate these things then actually take the time to experience them, because if they did they'd know that the fun is nonexistent when  too much of it is put into effect.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, True_Naeblis said:

Corpus are simply a constant reminder of places where combat design has gone wrong, but they aren't the only ones.

Nothing like getting into a room only to die because of wall penetrating napalm strikes or invisible poison auras stacking with all avaible debuffs.

This game has a lot of questionable enemy design and its time to modernize them.

[(PSN)cdzbrbr]

You forget to mention that everything one hit kills you unless you are one of the frames blessed with a damage reduction ability.

Also the obligatory new the corpus tech. A corpus tech lv15 does the same amount of dps a heavy gunner lv 60 does.

[Fabre]

I personally hate the scrambus units with passion, since you can't be aware 100% of them in most maps with and then if said buff was a mean of self-defense, like Mesa's shatter shield, you'll probably die before you can cast it again.

 

Being said that i think the Nullifier bubbles can come to a compromise, make them so that the deny abilities as usual but they should only mitigate damage from weapons to a certain degree up to their hp limit, if you shoot them with a full auto rifle you'll probably pop the bubble before killing the enemy, but if you shoot them with a sniper you'll pierce the bubble and hit directly the enemy as the rifle has less damage per bullet than the sniper so the sniper has less damage mitigated by the bubble

This idea I just came up with would allow for more weapon variety

[UltraLYT]

Nullifiers are at least slow, the real threats among high level Corpus, to me, are the Scrambus, Comba and alike, when they suddenly pop out of nowhere, their sounds (so-called 'announcement') are hardly audible in the middle of all those explosions in survival, especially you go solo. 

Your invisible frame cannot go invisible, your invincible frame is no longer invincible, etc. because that particular ability that enables you to be invisible or invincible is immediately disabled by these mobs.

[BlackCoMerc]

21 minutes ago, True_Naeblis said:

No doubt about that. Ridiculously long invulnerability phases, especially early on with instances such as Vay Hek with nothing telling new players to simply run to the end, are the epitome of poor design. As is the inconsistency of empowering players in one instance then making the best load outs 95% ineffective through gimmicks and leaving them one shot on the floor because of mechanics that they haven't learned to cheese quickly enough. This game doesn't have the subtlety to be Dark Souls, where one mistake should cost a player the mission. Worse still, it never feels like "Oh, I just need to get a little better at that" to get through something, it feels like players just need to find a way to out cheese the cheese, and then move on to something that's actually fun.

That's present in other areas, too, when sortie requirements suddenly mean sacrificing a necessary mod slot to put in a resistance mod, only for that to mean that while movement isn't as bad or DoT damage isn't as bad, the aimbot enemies are shredding you because dodging really doesn't work as it should to avoid fire. Corpus are simply a constant reminder of places where combat design has gone wrong, but they aren't the only ones. I know that design takes up a lot of time, but I can't believe the devs incorporate these things then actually take the time to experience them, because if they did they'd know that the fun is nonexistent when  too much of it is put into effect.

Enemy accuracy needs a cap. And enemies should never have hitscan weapons. Players can; they're only 4 of us,ax, with endless numbers of them. But no enemy should ever have been given a hitscan weapon. It's bad design.

As is control.and input robbing, Invulnerability and most everything having to do with eemies the last couple.of years.

[_Vortus_]

46 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

-snip-

As i said, I like them as is, don't have trouble dealing with them regardless of my load-out.    Pretty much done discussing it.   I wish you the best in getting what you want.  

[Nitro747]

Finally someone making a post about how boring and how much of a chore it is to play in any mission when the Corpus is the main factions. Nulifiers and Sapping Ospreys pretty much killed melee-focused warframes. I loves using Valkyr but these days I don't even use her anymore because there is no point in using a character that will have all of its nice features turned off by a buggy, poorly designed enemy like the Nulifier. Its even worse when we are used to fight giant people like the Grineer and when we face the Corpus what kills us is a bunch of eye-burning tiny robots that swarm us and have completely broken abilities (like rattels having a literal infinite spawn rate, sapping ospreys killing you in one hit and clipping through walls, mine drones laying 3000 mines in less than 5 seconds, etc).

I really hope DE is planing to release a major Corpus overhaul when they release the Venus open world otherwise it will be a gigantic let down and its missions will become even worse than the normal Corpus ones.

[Raspberry]

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Enemy accuracy needs a cap. And enemies should never have hitscan weapons. Players can; they're only 4 of us,ax, with endless numbers of them. But no enemy should ever have been given a hitscan weapon. It's bad design.

As is control.and input robbing, Invulnerability and most everything having to do with eemies the last couple.of years.

I disagree. A lot of enemy hitscan weapons are balanced like Grakatas, Flux Rifles, Krakens, Hinds, etc. The ones that are several orders of magnitudes stronger should take a second look, and these are Vipers, Mareloks, and Ignis. Oddly, two of these three weapons are wielded by Shield Lancers, and their unbalanced state is something for another day (another issue of not hard in absolute difficulty, but too hard to kill for an "easy-tier" enemy that grants a mere 50 base affinity upon kill, in line with non-elite Lancers, Drahks, Hyekkas, etc.)

[Nitro747]

Also, there is a big reason why people don't complain as much about Combas and Scrambuses than nulifiers: they are high priority targets that don't appear a lot during missions. They generally disable 1 or two abilities and you can still shoot them in the face. Also, they are fun to fight against. They have cool weapons, dodge your attacks, use melee. Meanwhile Nulifiers just walk slowly towards you, sniping you with a ridiculous fire rate (3x faster than Grineer Balistas) all the while their bubbles get bigger and bigger and goes around the map clipping through every single obstacle, including walls and ceilings!

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

17 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Agreed.

If high level Venus content relies on the same tired garbage as other Corpus environs, I'll run it once (if ever) and never, ever go back. Not for anything.

High level play in Warframe has been sheer Tedium for some time. Screen obfuscation, flashing lights, for a while illness inducing screen shake (some of which CANNOT be disabled). Knockdown spam, Invulnerability phases and input robbing...

DE needs to modernize enemy design. Badly. There's a difference between challenging and cheap. Figure it out. Fast. Every other game developer has managed to; it can't be that hard.

The tedium is exactly what's turning me off to this game.  There is a difference between a fun grind, and utterly tedious gameplay.  This game has tedium in spades, and they aren't listening.  

I gave feedback on knockdown being way too common: I was met with fanboy resistance telling me to just avoid it.  As if you can avoid 6 different infested ancients spamming knockdown in a never ending tide of knockdown spamming ancients and moas.  Especially when that knockdown is practically hitscan.

I've given feedback on nullifier bubbles being way too common, and way too broken (popping a 5x stacked snow globe that no other enemy could penetrate just by walking into it?  Really?) and I was told "just bring something to pop them."  Again, never ending tide of nullifiers, you can't stop them all.

The invulnerability phases make a boss that should take 60 seconds at max if you're geared out, take several minutes of just waiting for the boss to decide you can attack it.  I felt for sure that mechanic went out the window with modern, better game design.

The time gates, designed to make you play longer, are only making me and my friend want to play less.  Not being able to progress for no reason other than "you just can't right now, you have to wait." means I'm just turning the game off.  It's hack n' slash on a foundation of spreadsheets.  Progression is what I'm here for.

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

Overall, Warframe has some of my favorite design and characters ever, but a number of mechanical missteps.

Sargas Ruk?  LOVE Sargas Ruk, hate fighting him.  Lech Kril?  One of the worst fights in the game, and there's still a long-standing bug with Radiation damage making him become invulnerable indefinitely.  Even the new Eidolons (which are essentially one fight with three different sizes and minor model changes) have some invulnerability issues and sketchy hitboxes on their weak points.

The Nullifier mechanic isn't terrible, it's just over-utilized.  Massively, massively over-utilized.  It's something miniboss or boss level, but we see it on uncommon-rate mobs.  

[Fallen_Echo]

7 hours ago, Raspberri said:

I disagree. A lot of enemy hitscan weapons are balanced like Grakatas, Flux Rifles, Krakens, Hinds, etc. The ones that are several orders of magnitudes stronger should take a second look, and these are Vipers, Mareloks, and Ignis. Oddly, two of these three weapons are wielded by Shield Lancers, and their unbalanced state is something for another day (another issue of not hard in absolute difficulty, but too hard to kill for an "easy-tier" enemy that grants a mere 50 base affinity upon kill, in line with non-elite Lancers, Drahks, Hyekkas, etc.)

Enemy accuracy should never scale but have a base amount. Weapons getting balanced firemode doesnt matter if you have a lv60 common grunt sniping you with a grakata from 100+ meters. Even more absurd ranges in the plains.

Projectile leading should never reach the level where they can perfectly snipe you with shotguns while doing acrobatics like bulletjumps.

[BlackCoMerc]

5 hours ago, (XB1)TehChubbyDugan said:

The tedium is exactly what's turning me off to this game.  There is a difference between a fun grind, and utterly tedious gameplay.  This game has tedium in spades, and they aren't listening.  

I gave feedback on knockdown being way too common: I was met with fanboy resistance telling me to just avoid it.  As if you can avoid 6 different infested ancients spamming knockdown in a never ending tide of knockdown spamming ancients and moas.  Especially when that knockdown is practically hitscan.

I've given feedback on nullifier bubbles being way too common, and way too broken (popping a 5x stacked snow globe that no other enemy could penetrate just by walking into it?  Really?) and I was told "just bring something to pop them."  Again, never ending tide of nullifiers, you can't stop them all.

The invulnerability phases make a boss that should take 60 seconds at max if you're geared out, take several minutes of just waiting for the boss to decide you can attack it.  I felt for sure that mechanic went out the window with modern, better game design.

The time gates, designed to make you play longer, are only making me and my friend want to play less.  Not being able to progress for no reason other than "you just can't right now, you have to wait." means I'm just turning the game off.  It's hack n' slash on a foundation of spreadsheets.  Progression is what I'm here for.

Yeah the sheer tedium of fighting high and mid level enemies really turns me off. With all the well designed single player games in my library right now - and more good stuff on the way soon - its getting hard to even log in and tolerate the layer upon layer of awful design in Warframe. 

The game is raking in tens of millions. Small indie company scraping by really isnt cutting it as an excuse for mistakes that look like first year out of school stuff. 

Here is a Hint for DE: Enemies ARE NOT BARRIERS. They are - or should be - fun, engaging puzzles for players to solve, presenting a challenging but fair hurdle to progression. And yet in Warframe, every single enemy needs to be as powerful as a Warframe, for some reason. Its like your enemy designers are trying to "win" and frankly, thats not their job.

5 hours ago, (PS4)Hooligantuan said:

Overall, Warframe has some of my favorite design and characters ever, but a number of mechanical missteps.

Sargas Ruk?  LOVE Sargas Ruk, hate fighting him.  Lech Kril?  One of the worst fights in the game, and there's still a long-standing bug with Radiation damage making him become invulnerable indefinitely.  Even the new Eidolons (which are essentially one fight with three different sizes and minor model changes) have some invulnerability issues and sketchy hitboxes on their weak points.

The Nullifier mechanic isn't terrible, it's just over-utilized.  Massively, massively over-utilized.  It's something miniboss or boss level, but we see it on uncommon-rate mobs.  

Agreed.

On a spawn capped enemy like Proxies, they would be cool. Really cool. Especially since probably only one of four proxy types would have the mechanic.

But they were kneejerk reaction to complaints about power spamming. And now, they are so common, that they ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE power spamming. Since they always protect hordes of enemies, the best thing to go is kill the Nullifier...then spam the very CC they were designed to prevent. Its the definition of Design Failure.

As for bosses, Warframe bosses are some of the worst in all of modern gaming. Its like some budget 90's JRPG in here. If you want an example of what NOT to do in boss design, though, this game should be your first stop for examining and learning from design flaws and mistakes. There's no shortage of them to examine.

5 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Enemy accuracy should never scale but have a base amount. Weapons getting balanced firemode doesnt matter if you have a lv60 common grunt sniping you with a grakata from 100+ meters. Even more absurd ranges in the plains.

Projectile leading should never reach the level where they can perfectly snipe you with shotguns while doing acrobatics like bulletjumps.

Agreed.

Enemy weapon range needs capped. Bullet Jump needs to reduce their accuracy, LIKE WE WERE TOLD IT WOULD, and like it STILL NEVER DOES to this day. And that accuracy also needs a hard cap. Probably somewhere around mid starmap, would be a good place to look for the reasonable point. 

[BlackCoMerc]

12 hours ago, Raspberri said:

I disagree. A lot of enemy hitscan weapons are balanced like Grakatas, Flux Rifles, Krakens, Hinds, etc. The ones that are several orders of magnitudes stronger should take a second look, and these are Vipers, Mareloks, and Ignis. Oddly, two of these three weapons are wielded by Shield Lancers, and their unbalanced state is something for another day (another issue of not hard in absolute difficulty, but too hard to kill for an "easy-tier" enemy that grants a mere 50 base affinity upon kill, in line with non-elite Lancers, Drahks, Hyekkas, etc.)

Hitscan would be balanced, if enemy accuracy and range were capped. High level Plains enemies prove that, in fact, NEITHER of these is the case. Making 500m full auto Grakata sniping a thing was laughably bad design. And its still in.