Endless Kuva needs Buffening

[-Akeva-Banshee-]

On a side note. I do agree that 200 kuva is too low I mean 300 base plus a scaling of even 25 per capsule defended would be a vast improvement. And a balanced one too. Kuva fortress is one of the most annoying game maps. Dead ends poorly defensible tiles, etc the pods need to scale with the enemy level. This game is meant for players to work together to achieve better rewards. As it is no there is no bonus staying longer than 1 or 2 waves and restarting. 

[Hypernaut1]

An I missing something here? Aren't flood missions limited? So while 1 flood missiob may be more efficient, you can get far more Kuva per hour by doing survival right? 

If I wanted to get 14k kuva for 4 Max rolls, wouldn't Kuva survival be faster than waiting for floods to pop up?

Also, doesn't this mean we overall have a buff to Kuva acquisition as you can do a food and then do survival in-between?

It seems like it's balanced appropriately.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[pAULEE]

hi all Tennos, & DE coders ;

i have just completed a kuva survival where i learned the amount rewarded does not increase over time?

in gaming we need a suitable reward.  i am not sure if this aspect has been fully considered:

this currently does not encourage digital extremes in gaming: 

survival mode nurtures and encourages a digital extreme, a mode i have loved right from the survival launch. 

We all want to go that extra mile, we need to nurture and encourage FLOW. 

on extraction there could be a kuva-time multiplier.

 

thanks for reading

pAULEE 

 

[DiabolusUrsus]

I just finished a non-optimal 29 min. 38 sec. run with a clanmate, Nekros + Mirage Prime (with Mirage Prime starting at R14). We hauled in 3800 Kuva, so generally speaking a little better than running Siphons (on average).

Running solo, I can pull of Siphon missions in ~5 min. That's 6 siphons in 30 minutes, which yields ~3600 Kuva average. Either way, ~30 min. invested for 1 max-cost roll. I think there are also other considerations people are overlooking when comparing simple Kuva/min. rates.

• Consistency. In Siphons/Floods, you can suffer low rolls. These aren't necessarily significant, but I personally appreciate knowing exactly how much I will get.
• Accessibility. Kuva Survival is always available. I don't want to run Siphons/Floods when the Fortress is near Ceres, because that tileset has piss-poor spawning logic for the Siphons. Same goes for Infested Ship, but that's less because the Siphon spawns in remote corners and more because the rooms themselves are overly claustrophobic proportional to the chaos.
• Quality of play! I can't stress this one enough. Running a Survival with a minor Defense portion (Shadows of the Dead was sufficient) is - to me - a bazillion times more fun than waiting around invisible until Kuva clouds spawn in Flood missions. Siphons are less of an issue at L30, but still become a bit of a chore to run repeatedly. Floods are just plain tedious. Survival is a refreshing alternative.

All said and done, 200 does seem a bit low. The Survival is only marginally better than Siphons, and I think the difference could stand to be bigger.

[Zhoyzu]

5 hours ago, ZephyrPrime said:

Except survivals give you gradually less survival towers as time goes on, so kuva survival, even if it had its base amount increased, is still linearly less efficient over time than siphons.

It needs to scale, there is no way around it. 

this mode ONLY has to be a viable alternative. and at 250-275 kuva per tower you would have that. 

perhaps i hate the ceres tiles for kuva farming cause its always in some weird back corner of the map you had no idea was there. so instead of playing ceres nodes i could go to the kuva fort surv and get roughly the same kuva amount as if i had been slamming my face into walls to get kuva off ceres.

Ramping rewards also causes problems for PuG match making where people will want to stay longer and longer. Yea i enjoy sitting in survivals for 90 minutes or more. i find it relaxing and calming. Sometimes  i dont feel like spending more than 15 minutes and would rather do something else. Sometimes you change your mind after the mission starts and when PUG-ing this is how you get griefers and trolls. 

"oh you wanted this LS for kuva? thats a shame id like to leave" *activates LS* "i hope you enjoy reduced kuva farming"

Thats how it always plays out in PUGs. While i admit WF community is more considerate, it is slowly slipping.

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 hours ago, ZephyrPrime said:

Except survivals give you gradually less survival towers as time goes on, so kuva survival, even if it had its base amount increased, is still linearly less efficient over time than siphons.

It needs to scale, there is no way around it. 

Not true.

They (in the same patch) made Life Support towers spawn every 90 seconds throughout the duration of the mission. At the very least the rewards don't scale DOWN, which I feel is enough. The base quantity could stand to be a bit higher though.

[xmegarockx]

we need more kuva right now is a waste of time to run them.

[Hypernaut1]

19 minutes ago, xmegarockx said:

we need more kuva right now is a waste of time to run them.

so after you do a flood...what do you do next?

[fr4gb4ll]

though i like this endless-kuva better than the "normal" siphon/flood way (mostly because i like endless mission better than the damn search for the siphon on some maps...), it sure needs a little bit increase of kuva the more  LS-towers you complete - maybe even a bonus if a team run, for example, 4 of them at the same time (risk reward). but the fun of a real endless mission is to push one "yet an other" rotation/LS - you know, like you done in the fissure endless mission... which actually would be also nice to see in every endless mission (the bonus & the extra relic every 5 rotations)... but that's only on a sidenote.

beside that, there are still some minor issus with double drops from nekros despoilment cluttering the map after some time (the icons of the kuva-activation thingy is the one i'm referring to) and the still sometimes map guidance system (in general and the fortress in specific) - if i couldn't run the damn stones blindfolded already, i would despise the fortress, like many do, because of that.

[Toran]

Kuva Survival should be tripled.

A 35min run yielded 8,000 Kuva (with buff)...  Both Kuva Floods I did afterwards took just 4 mins each. Thats 5k (and potentially more with Smeeta buff) in 8 mins or 625+ Kuva/minute, while Endless gave ridiculous 228 per minute. Sure, we could have ignored two air refreshs with a Nekros along, for... tadaa 251 Kuva/minute.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Toran

[Toran]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Hypernaut1:

so after you do a flood...what do you do next?

Fast mission types. Capture, Rescue, Sabotage. They usually take around 4 minutes or less and thus yielding, sadly, better average Kuva/min than current Kuva Survival with far less stress involved, too.

When I'm done with the fast missions, I prefer to do fissures in between.

[Carnage2K4]

I'm fine with 200 per filter, but there needs to be more filters, 2 of us were going to 20 minutes (14 filters, 2,800 Kuva) with no real issue, 4 players can do more and protect more, but there is just not enough life supports to keep it going, in a 4 player cell 2 groups should be able spit off and take a filter each, but as far as I can tell you can't do that as most of the time we were waiting for the next life support to spawn before we could start, there was never more than 1 going at a time.

I think splitting your group is an added risk, and the reward should be the ability to do more filters and acquire more Kuva.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Carnage2K4

[PookieNumnums]

ok so firstly,

when you do a flood mission you can just find someone else with a flood and go do that one. i did that for a while when i was really into rivens and rolling the ones i had until i had some half decent stats on them.

 

secondly, you have to consider the UNBUFFED amounts. someone said they got like 16800 in an hr with smeeta AND booster? thats a terrible way to spend an hr for only 4 rolls on cost-capped rivens.

 

thirdly,

i sent this suggestion to sheldon who according to the devstream seemed to be the one in charge of oversight on this project:

kuva filters should have a small chance to spawn a kuva siphon near them each time they are converted from life support to kuva filter. the small chance then has a small chance for the siphon that spawns to be a flood siphon. this way, you can get random bits of 600 or 1200 kuva unboosted throughout your mission and it adds some more dynamic to it. players that dont like siphons can simply ignore them if they spawn. 

 

lastly,

for players that dont like capturing kuva.. i dont get it. you can void dash it or you can shoot it. and if you build a 333 amp you get the target seeking laser noodle altfire which makes getting the kuva sooooo soooo easy. yes i know sometimes the kuva doesnt count when you shoot it but in my experience thats few and far between. 

 

the survival simply put isnt as efficient. a clever team will have three players searching for siphons and one player doing the objective. this makes for fairly quick runs outside of defense interceptions survival and mobile defense. exterms, caps, crossfire (exterm+1), sabotage.. these are so quick and the siphons really dont take long at all. and if youre alternating floods or looking for flood invites in recruiting then it can be very very generous ESPECIALLY WHEN RIVENS TAKE 3500 KUVA TO ROLL.

 

making this mode 'somewhere between regular and flood siphons' is a bad idea. sure its a gift from god to players that for whatever reason cant stand siphon missions *scoff* but its definitely a punishment to kuva farmers in general who otherwise dont mind the siphons but need massive amounts of kuva (and im not talking about just the riven traders). 

if they need a way to justify increasing the amount of kuva we get from there, then simply lock that node to anyone who hasnt done the war within and who hasnt cleared out all the other nodes up to that point (i.e. no taxi's). that would be a fair enough limiter on who can go there and when, and will give the siphons a reason to exist: for players that havent met those criteria. 

 

tbh though, id just rather see the chance per filter for a siphon to spawn. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by PookieNumnums
forgot a word

[fluffysnowcap]

On 3/28/2018 at 8:39 PM, PookieNumnums said:

13 minutes, 1600 kuva. Could have done a flood in half that or less for almost as much. 

 

the amount of kuva needs to scale or simply be increased. for a new game mode that is on literally the last node on the hardest mission, the return on investment is not worth it. 

@PookieNumnums I did some testing and crunched some numbers earlier today, and found that Kuva Survival gives you about 133.3(r) KpM as a theoretical maximum; however normal Kuva Siphons takes about 3 to 5 minutes and usually falling closer to the 3 minutes end. Resulting in a Rough Siphon Kpm between: 130KpM up to 216.6(r)KpM averaging at about 173.3(r)KpM in my personal experience of running in public squads.

[SenorClipClop]

On 3/29/2018 at 3:39 AM, PookieNumnums said:

the return on investment is not worth it. 

You say that like you're paying for something.

[BL4CKN0ISE]

I'm definitely not against a buff, but I don't think it's needed. Survival just feels more consistent and convienent to me. I can easily look at it like doing a flood that takes a bit longer, but not very long at all for what I'm guaranteed to walk away with. 15 minutes of Survival is 4000 Kuva with a booster. It doesn't happen often but I've spent over 10 minutes doing a Flood before. Floods just aren't always an option. Either the mission type is garbage or the option literally isn't there. I'll just do Survival and Floods from now on. 

A big part of it for me is just starting a Survival and extracting with an amount of Kuva I'm happy with. With Survival I can always guarantee I'll leave with enough for a roll. If I want 7k, I just go get 7k with one mission and then extract. My favorite will always be a Capture Flood or even Extermination with my kitty, but when I can't get that, I'll just do a Survival for however long I'm down to stay. It's just no hassle and I think it's pretty fun/challenging too depending on the frame I'm using.

That being said, I literally just did a Capture Flood solo in less than 3 minutes, so nothing beats that. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by BL4CKN0ISE

[NoSpax]

In other words, there is no point staying for longer then 5 minutes. Extract. Redo. Repeat for 30 minutes. Reroll Riven. Start over. Being bored playing the same mission for 4 hours straight. 

Kuva Survival in a nutshell for people without high-performance loadout / build. 

[rroorr]

5 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

You say that like you're paying for something.

Yeah, the most precious finite resource there is: time.

As it is, running regular siphons is better because it's just as rewarding, more varied and less annoying. It's not even worth playing this mode while waiting for more siphons to spawn, unless you really need a small amount for your next roll or are that bored. As for the challenge aspect, endless void fissures do it better and are rewarding.

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, rroorr said:

Yeah, the most precious finite resource there is: time.

Okay yeah, but any time spent playing a video game is straight-up time wasted. (Time you enjoy wasting, but nonetheless wasted.)

For me, Kuva Survivals are a welcome addition because they connect Kuva to the mission I'm playing rather than having it be an Operator mini-game glued into a regular mission I that I probably wouldn't otherwise play. As a gamemode I really like it, and if they bump the Kuva numbers a little I'll like it all the more. Right now it feels pretty sarisfying to me though.

[PookieNumnums]

On 3/30/2018 at 1:24 AM, SenorClipClop said:

You say that like you're paying for something.

Its a common term even the devs have used for what you get out of what you have put in. And not that its any of your business but ive paid for quite a bit of this game thanks. 

[Vengerz]

Current Kuva numbers are too low. Here's how I'd fix Kuva problems.

1. Kuva Siphon and Flood missions pop up less often but yield more Kuva.
This keeps these missions interesting and worth doing.

2. Kuva Survival base amount increased to 300. Scales up by 30 every completed harvester. 
This makes Kuva Survival worthwhile and rewards actually surviving.

3. Kuva drops from bounties increased ~50-100%, Eidolon have a chance to drop Kuva.
Allows you to gain some significant Kuva doing other stuff.

4. Allow rivens to be dissolved into ~1500 Kuva instead of Endo
This makes it actually something you might consider doing. 

Generally:
I think Kuva is way too rare a resource atm and these changes seek to address that.You don't get to roll almost any of your rivens as it is unless you're specifically farming Kuva constantly. Getting it from more sources allows for more varied gameplay. 

[LuinCeltchar]

It needs to be upped to 300 per tower before I'll bother with it. I'd rather time my floods and siphons right and do something else in between, 200 just isn't worth it even with boosters and buffs.

Edited April 2, 2018 by LuinCeltchar

[NoSpax]

Why not ditch the Kuva missions all together and make it drop on the Kuva Fortress only? We could use our extractors then. Or replace Kryotic as Excavation reward on Kuva Fortress with Kuva. 

Its called Kuva Fortress for a reason...