Ember is Far From Okay

[Arcira]

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

The reason powers don't do weapon-level damage is because powers tend to hit many enemies at once (or, more often, the whole map tile.)  This is gonna remain a breaking point in terms of balancing until Damage 3.0. 

That´s a silly excuse. First it´s a horde game sure single target attacks should have more dps against well single targets but aoe should be better or at least equally good against masses of enemies. In my opinion Warframe has more in common with arpgs like diablo or poe than regular shooters like cod or even borderlands.

Second I´m not even talking about "weapon lvl" but viable damage. The difference in dps is just ridiculous you can´t even compere it with eachother.

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

Armor is pretty much immune to damage sources that don't ignore most of it, past level 40 or so.  Strip the armor off of that Heavy Gunner and suddenly FireBall can kill it fine.  New Fireball isn't terrible as far as 1 abilities go.  Damage could be raised and exalted treatment may come in the future while DE sits on their hands and don't work on Damage 3.0.

Again pls don´t try... I was talking about a lvl 80 enemy in order to make a point. Litteraly any weapon can kill this kind of enemy in seconds not even considering armostrip. Also comparing it to other useless ability (like a lot of 1st are) doesn´t make it any better.

1 hour ago, RealPandemonium said:

I personally find just Redirection to be adequate for survivability in regular content, and usually do without even that.  The fewer defensive bandaids you use, the more room you have for a "build."  At least moderate power strength (145-167) is suggested to take advantage of Accelerant's multipliers while also raising WoF's proc rate.  Already powerful weapons become absolutely ridiculous when they're getting Accelerant's damage boost.  If you don't care about damage from your abilities at all, including from the buffs, just maximize range and stunlock the map.  This game gets stupid real fast, depending on the player's choices in the Arsenal screen.

Redirection is a wasted slot. It doesn´t scale of armor, ignores life leech and some procs and damge types can bypass ignore shields. Maybe it could be worth it with one or two maxed Aegis. 55% heat proc chance is quite pointless if you can have 100% knockdown instead and in lower level content base damage is more than sufficient. In higher difficulties where defense actually matters ability damage becomes irreleveant. Still I don´t see a point in building for power strength.

The Accelerant debuff can be good for certain weapons though but the damage increase for most weapons is limited by a lot of mandatory mods. You can´t simply exchange Serration, Multishot or your corrosive elementals for heat damage in order to reduce ttk. I have tested the difference damage output between several builds with and without heat + Accelerant debuff. The paper damage increase migth be good but the actual ttk difference is pointless (about 1 sec difference against a lvl 150 Corupted Heavy Gunner).

My problem with the mini rework is the reduced effectiveness of her ability and the shift to weapon buffs. One of the reasons I like Ember is because I like to play mages/caster. If I´d want a focus on gunplay there are better alternatives.

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Arcira

[EinheriarJudith]

4 hours ago, Arcira said:

That´s a silly excuse. First it´s a horde game sure single target attacks should have more dps against well single targets but aoe should be better or at least equally good against masses of enemies. In my opinion Warframe has more in common with arpgs like diablo or poe than regular shooters like cod or even borderlands.

Second I´m not even talking about "weapon lvl" but viable damage. The difference in dps is just ridiculous you can´t even compere it with eachother.

Again pls don´t try... I was talking about a lvl 80 enemy in order to make a point. Litteraly any weapon can kill this kind of enemy in seconds not even considering armostrip. Also comparing it to other useless ability (like a lot of 1st are) doesn´t make it any better.

Redirection is a wasted slot. It doesn´t scale of armor, ignores life leech and some procs and damge types can bypass ignore shields. Maybe it could be worth it with one or two maxed Aegis. 55% heat proc chance is quite pointless if you can have 100% knockdown instead and in lower level content base damage is more than sufficient. In higher difficulties where defense actually matters ability damage becomes irreleveant. Still I don´t see a point in building for power strength.

The Accelerant debuff can be good for certain weapons though but the damage increase for most weapons is limited by a lot of mandatory mods. You can´t simply exchange Serration, Multishot or your corrosive elementals for heat damage in order to reduce ttk. I have tested the difference damage output between several builds with and without heat + Accelerant debuff. The paper damage increase migth be good but the actual ttk difference is pointless (about 1 sec difference against a lvl 150 Corupted Heavy Gunner).

My problem with the mini rework is the reduced effectiveness of her ability and the shift to weapon buffs. One of the reasons I like Ember is because I like to play mages/caster. If I´d want a focus on gunplay there are better alternatives.

 

i have yet to find a 1st ability thats useless. some need QoL/update but none are useless.

RP's point is valid. DE does not want map wipe and neither do alot of players.

redirection isnt useless. she isnt an armor frame using steel fiber is prolly a worse option than using vigor or redirection. notice i said worse not useless.

accelerant is good for any weapon that is using heat as an addition. you did say "any weapon can kill a lvl 80" so a heat boosted weapon will kill them faster.

the only thing they changed was reduction of range to WoF over time (while boosting its damage) and boosted fire blast by giving it a buff and adding more utility to fireball. shes always been good at boosting weapons that use heat damage and DE buffed that aspect.

Edited May 26, 2018 by EinheriarJudith

[Arcira]

7 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

i have yet to find a 1st ability thats useless. some need QoL/update but none are useless.

Fireball is a slow moving projectile with long casttime, base 25 energy cost and ridiculous high ttk. The utility aspect doesn´t provide anything special. A weapon modded for blast could do better. Panic isn´t a very good cc and has many downsides. Even her own kit offers better alternatives with aoe proc and stun.

If using literally anything else but Fireball is more efficient than that´s the definition of useless. If you can tell me just one specific moment when Fireball is better than anything else the game offers I might change my mind.

7 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

RP's point is valid. DE does not want map wipe and neither do alot of players.

So 15m base range and a max 5 affected enemies at a time is map wipe for you? You cold boost that to max 42m sure but not without a significant damage decrease and the number of affected enemies can´t be changed. It migth be overpowered in low level content where you oneshot everything but that´s a problem with enemy scaling not necessarily the mechanic itself. Personally I dont have a problem with this either. If I have invested several hundred hours in a maxing out my build I ´d expect do deal with low level content without problems. People act like it´s a press 4 for kill anything in an 50m radius regardless of level ability (like the bugged Blade Storm version of pre rework Ash was).

7 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

redirection isnt useless. she isnt an armor frame using steel fiber is prolly a worse option than using vigor or redirection. notice i said worse not useless.

A single lvl 100+ Corrupted Nulifier will oneshot you regardless of wearing Redirection or not. Also it doesn´t benefit from armor and life leech. Quite useless mod in regard of slot efficiency if you ask me. QT has more investment requirements but offers more utility and scaling synergies. I wouldn´t go as far as saying QT is a very good source of survivability but I think it´s the best you can have for ember at this point.

Funfact: Vitality does provide more ehp and doesnt have as many weaknesses (about 1425 compared to 1350).

7 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

accelerant is good for any weapon that is using heat as an addition. you did say "any weapon can kill a lvl 80" so a heat boosted weapon will kill them faster.

I already made a post about this but whatever.. here are 2 builds one with multishot and one with heat damage:

https://imgur.com/v6BZoej  and https://imgur.com/SdtPkcK

The differnce in ttk is about 1sec against lvl 150 Corrupted Heavy Gunner Eximus (as you can image even lower against enemies with less ehp). A meaningless difference. In addition which mod would you suggest to replace with heat damage in order to decrease ttk segificantly?

I see alot of claims of how viable or overpowered something is but not many mathematical proves. Opinions and taste may differ I know that but objective arguments are better for a discussion.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Arcira

[SenorClipClop]

Oof, so many giant-ass essays of "oh what ho, sir, yes I do believe Ember is indeed in a pickle blah blah blah" like we all scholars about the frame who was changed because players could be best Tenno in mission on her by hitting one button and alt-tabbing for next five minutes.

Ember is okay. She no longer fits the meta of "one button to outdamage them all", but you can still very easily wreck face if you know what you're doing and build and play accordingly. In order to dominate as Ember, you need to play actively, which really oughta be true of any frame. Effort to power ratios work well if they're roughly consistent.

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2018-05-22 at 1:08 AM, Synpai said:

Just go ahead and throw this here.

Just one change:

DE said no to any passive what negates elemental damage or propc damage.

How about instead of the self-heat proc thing we keep everything but ember gets "energized" with 25% chance with casts?

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Just one change:

DE said no to any passive what negates elemental damage or propc damage.

How about instead of the self-heat proc thing we keep everything but ember gets "energized" with 25% chance with casts?

sounds good to me.

[RealPandemonium]

22 hours ago, Arcira said:

That´s a silly excuse. First it´s a horde game sure single target attacks should have more dps against well single targets but aoe should be better or at least equally good against masses of enemies. In my opinion Warframe has more in common with arpgs like diablo or poe than regular shooters like cod or even borderlands.

Second I´m not even talking about "weapon lvl" but viable damage. The difference in dps is just ridiculous you can´t even compere it with eachother.

Again pls don´t try... I was talking about a lvl 80 enemy in order to make a point. Litteraly any weapon can kill this kind of enemy in seconds not even considering armostrip. Also comparing it to other useless ability (like a lot of 1st are) doesn´t make it any better.

Redirection is a wasted slot. It doesn´t scale of armor, ignores life leech and some procs and damge types can bypass ignore shields. Maybe it could be worth it with one or two maxed Aegis. 55% heat proc chance is quite pointless if you can have 100% knockdown instead and in lower level content base damage is more than sufficient. In higher difficulties where defense actually matters ability damage becomes irreleveant. Still I don´t see a point in building for power strength.

The Accelerant debuff can be good for certain weapons though but the damage increase for most weapons is limited by a lot of mandatory mods. You can´t simply exchange Serration, Multishot or your corrosive elementals for heat damage in order to reduce ttk. I have tested the difference damage output between several builds with and without heat + Accelerant debuff. The paper damage increase migth be good but the actual ttk difference is pointless (about 1 sec difference against a lvl 150 Corupted Heavy Gunner).

My problem with the mini rework is the reduced effectiveness of her ability and the shift to weapon buffs. One of the reasons I like Ember is because I like to play mages/caster. If I´d want a focus on gunplay there are better alternatives.

 

Horde games are only fun if killing the hordes presents a challenge.  Pressing one or two buttons repeatedly and one-shotting everything in range is not fun, but most 1 abilities were designed with an out-dated damage system in mind.  Damage 3.0 needs to come before we address this.

Unless you have a significant amount of Corrosive and/or Puncture damage, you're gonna tickle a level 80 heavy gunner unless you're using a massively overtuned single-target weapon like Opticor or sniper rifles.  Again, though, the damage system is out-dated.

Most frames' armor is a small or negligible amount, and not everyone tries to face-tank with Life Strike, etc.  Slash procs deal small amounts of dps and are relatively rare, while Toxin damage is easy to avoid.  Both kinds of procs can be nullified by going into your operator or mostly mitigated by rolling through them.  IDK why people seem to hate shields in this game, unless they are trying to face-tank? 

My WoF and boosted weapon damage do plenty of work in Sorties, and the slot I would have dedicated to Firequake can be used to further increase damage, range, or defense without sacrificing much. Remember: if your range is already really high, what's the point of using WoF for CC when your Accelerant will reach much further and be infinitely more consistent?  When an ability like WoF, which is target-limited, increases in range it becomes more inconsistent because its limited effects are spread over a much larger area and thus many more potential targets.  So, you can have a high powerstr and and a more consistent WoF or you can max range and have an inconsistent WoF, but adding Firequake doesn't make it much more predictable since even though its CC probability increases to 100% its effects will be spread thin.  There is targeting priority built into the power's behavior, but it can only do so much and if it's mainly focusing on nearby (more dangerous) targets the extra range is wasted anyway.

Flash Accelerant and Fireball Frenzy go a good way toward removing teammate reliance on "Accelerant-specific builds."  I think that your exchange with @Djego27 in another thread at least partly delineated the pros and cons of using Accelerant as a damage booster, and Djego's consistent performance in long endless runs, solo and not, over the years is an indicator of Ember's viability and, in turn, Accelerant's worth.  

WoF is arguably more adaptable than before, but with a nerf to energy efficiency and the elimination of lazier playstyles (maybe some people will have to alter their macros, or start using them now to achieve the same effect.)  Ember has had solid team buffing options for a while now; the addition to Fire Blast's ring is kind of tacked-on and pretty unessential.  (Until some youtuber posts a "lol 3 million heat damage with ember!!!1" video on youtube and it becomes a meme build.)

There is no real "mage" character that works the way you want a mage character to work in Sorties except maybe the new Saryn, and Exalted ability spam.  Once again we're back to Damage 3.0, which needs to happen before things start to make sense when it comes to powers vs weapons.  

Edited May 27, 2018 by RealPandemonium

[Synpai]

8 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Just one change:

DE said no to any passive what negates elemental damage or propc damage.

How about instead of the self-heat proc thing we keep everything but ember gets "energized" with 25% chance with casts?

👍

[Arcira]

19 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Horde games are only fun if killing the hordes presents a challenge.  Pressing one or two buttons repeatedly and one-shotting everything in range is not fun, but most 1 abilities were designed with an out-dated damage system in mind.  Damage 3.0 needs to come before we address this.

When did WoF where able to oneshot everything in higher difficulties? The oneshot problem was and still is a lowlevel problem. The only thing that changed was that WoF is less effective (not useless) in higher levels while it doesn´t have significant impact in lower levels. Again the point isn´t that she is useless now or something (even if many people claiming this). The problem is that alot of people are dissatisfied with the way the changes were executed. Reducing effectiveness of something that wasn´t a problem in the first place and a charge mechanic that lowers dps and doesn´t do much to improve the usage of Fireball? Really?

19 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Unless you have a significant amount of Corrosive and/or Puncture damage, you're gonna tickle a level 80 heavy gunner unless you're using a massively overtuned single-target weapon like Opticor or sniper rifles.  Again, though, the damage system is out-dated.

I did some testing with a massive overtuned Prisma Grataka (the best weapon in the entire game) and tickled a lvl 80 Corupted Heavy Gunner to death in about 10sec. Here is my almighty build if someone is curious: https://imgur.com/zoegtto  (using on own risk content up to lvl 100 migth become boring)

Irony aside there isn´t a point in trying to defend Fireball. Sure at some point there might be a damage 3.0 but what can I expect from this rework considering the dps cliff is simpley a numeric not a mechanical problem?

19 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

Most frames' armor is a small or negligible amount, and not everyone tries to face-tank with Life Strike, etc.  Slash procs deal small amounts of dps and are relatively rare, while Toxin damage is easy to avoid.  Both kinds of procs can be nullified by going into your operator or mostly mitigated by rolling through them.  IDK why people seem to hate shields in this game, unless they are trying to face-tank?

I agree the weaknesses of shield isn´t common (nonetheless it can be very anoying like toxic damage auras) and armor is a small ehp for most "caster" type frames but still other sources of surviveability simply don´t have these drawbacks and that´s why I don´t see shields as viable. The important point of having defenses is to at least not get oneshot. An ability Redirect lacks in levels above 100 (where it actually matters) and I´m not willing to sacrefice even more slots in order to get it working somehow.

19 hours ago, RealPandemonium said:

My WoF and boosted weapon damage do plenty of work in Sorties, and the slot I would have dedicated to Firequake can be used to further increase damage, range, or defense without sacrificing much. Remember: if your range is already really high, what's the point of using WoF for CC when your Accelerant will reach much further and be infinitely more consistent?  When an ability like WoF, which is target-limited, increases in range it becomes more inconsistent because its limited effects are spread over a much larger area and thus many more potential targets.  So, you can have a high powerstr and and a more consistent WoF or you can max range and have an inconsistent WoF, but adding Firequake doesn't make it much more predictable since even though its CC probability increases to 100% its effects will be spread thin.  There is targeting priority built into the power's behavior, but it can only do so much and if it's mainly focusing on nearby (more dangerous) targets the extra range is wasted anyway.

I read alot claims how viable and good the new builds are. You know what I want to give it a shot and compare it with my own build in terms of effectiveness and fun. You can post yours oc only if you want to.

In addition my personal expirience is that WoF is much more interactive than people want to believe. The fact that the cc is quite "unreliable" as you want to describe it and the limit to 5 enemies at once makes movement and picking enemies much more important in contrast to spamming Accelerant every few seconds. And if I didn´t make it clear by now most of my arguments refer to high level content. I don´t really care much about lowlevel missions because there are plenty of options to make this kind of content obsolet without rofle stomp everything using WoF.

On 2018-05-26 at 8:21 PM, SenorClipClop said:

Oof, so many giant-ass essays of "oh what ho, sir, yes I do believe Ember is indeed in a pickle blah blah blah" like we all scholars about the frame who was changed because players could be best Tenno in mission on her by hitting one button and alt-tabbing for next five minutes.

Ember is okay. She no longer fits the meta of "one button to outdamage them all", but you can still very easily wreck face if you know what you're doing and build and play accordingly. In order to dominate as Ember, you need to play actively, which really oughta be true of any frame. Effort to power ratios work well if they're roughly consistent.

Oh really.. well maybe we should nerf everything depending on a useless number in mission reports. Mag has alot of item pickups per mission with her augment so...

I don´t know wheter you actually read one of the posts but it might be difficult to argue within a one-liner.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Arcira

[RealPandemonium]

10 hours ago, Arcira said:

When did WoF where able to oneshot everything in higher difficulties? The oneshot problem was and still is a lowlevel problem. The only thing that changed was that WoF is less effective (not useless) in higher levels while it doesn´t have significant impact in lower levels. Again the point isn´t that she is useless now or something (even if many people claiming this). The problem is that alot of people are dissatisfied with the way the changes were executed. Reducing effectiveness of something that wasn´t a problem in the first place and a charge mechanic that lowers dps and doesn´t do much to improve the usage of Fireball? Really?

I did some testing with a massive overtuned Prisma Grataka (the best weapon in the entire game) and tickled a lvl 80 Corupted Heavy Gunner to death in about 10sec. Here is my almighty build if someone is curious: https://imgur.com/zoegtto  (using on own risk content up to lvl 100 migth become boring)

Irony aside there isn´t a point in trying to defend Fireball. Sure at some point there might be a damage 3.0 but what can I expect from this rework considering the dps cliff is simpley a numeric not a mechanical problem?

I agree the weaknesses of shield isn´t common (nonetheless it can be very anoying like toxic damage auras) and armor is a small ehp for most "caster" type frames but still other sources of surviveability simply don´t have these drawbacks and that´s why I don´t see shields as viable. The important point of having defenses is to at least not get oneshot. An ability Redirect lacks in levels above 100 (where it actually matters) and I´m not willing to sacrefice even more slots in order to get it working somehow.

I read alot claims how viable and good the new builds are. You know what I want to give it a shot and compare it with my own build in terms of effectiveness and fun. You can post yours oc only if you want to.

In addition my personal expirience is that WoF is much more interactive than people want to believe. The fact that the cc is quite "unreliable" as you want to describe it and the limit to 5 enemies at once makes movement and picking enemies much more important in contrast to spamming Accelerant every few seconds. And if I didn´t make it clear by now most of my arguments refer to high level content. I don´t really care much about lowlevel missions because there are plenty of options to make this kind of content obsolet without rofle stomp everything using WoF.

Oh really.. well maybe we should nerf everything depending on a useless number in mission reports. Mag has alot of item pickups per mission with her augment so...

I don´t know wheter you actually read one of the posts but it might be difficult to argue within a one-liner.

I wasn't talking about WoF, there.  Just saying that spamming Novas in Diablo 2 wasn't fun for very long.  It could be satisfying to do so, but only because Diablo 2 was punishingly hard in Hell difficulty, and the satisfaction was in making it work after scrounging for gear and working out a build that you had to commit to in a game with no respecs.

Give Fireball those kinds of crit stats and we'll have ourselves a shoot-out!

Damage 3.0 could be an opportunity to lower the silly gap between low level and high level loadouts, and ground the game in a sensical way that hasn't been bulldozed by 5 years of iterations with no adjustment.  Damage 2.0 was tuned for level 40-60 endgame.  Sorties start at level 60 and go up from there.  The result is reliance on game-breaking powerspam (while other powers make no sense by comparison) and newer guns that deal silly amounts of damage with a full build.

Frame base durability is just insufficient for level 80+ enemies.  It was based on level 40-60, and should be updated in Damage 3.0.

Funny thing is these builds are not new.  They have been among the most effective for many years now, through multiple iterations of Ember.  High efficiency, high strength, moderate range and duration.  That's what I run, anyway.

WoF is definitely not very interactive, but its unreliable nature does create some gameplay.  It was a problem when it was a dirt-cheap passive effect, but the most recent revision has effectively increased the cost and given the user to think about how they use it.  Spamming Accelerant every few seconds has always been the best CC Ember has, at least as long as Accelerant has existed.  Having to spam it means that you are unable to sufficiently mitigate damage otherwise, which either means that enemy levels have gotten too high or that you need to step up your own gameplay.  Outside of Sorties and optional long endless runs, there isn't much "high level" content out there, and the game gets messed up really fast the higher you go because Damage 2.0 is old and outdated.  

 

[Maka.Bones]

On 2018-05-25 at 11:29 AM, RealPandemonium said:

Polishing your skills is one of the most rewarding experiences in Warframe.  A power fantasy is most fulfilling when the player builds up the power through competence.  We all went through the honeymoon phase where we first figured out how the mod system worked (I guess most people just look this up on youtube now) and ran through missions spamming 4.  Maybe this is still fun for you, but what it is for most people is efficient.  They want their rewards, and they don't care about the gameplay that leads them there.  

Ultimately this forum is just an emotional outlet, since our feedback is taken with a heap of salt and most of the participants don't understand the game well enough to give an authoritative opinion.  But try answering me again when you aren't overcome with emotion, since your latest posts pretty much ignore everything from my latest posts and instead double down on your initial feelings.  

Just going to repeat myself:

I love the devs, and the game is fun, but Warframe doesnt allow for actual "skilled gameplay". 

 

1) modding is fairly easy; the only time it was a challenge, is when the star chart was still challenging, and i couldn'tfit a full build. 

2)my complaint with ember is the "spam one ability" playstyle... so what makes you think im into "spam 4 to win"? I literally said i want to shoot fireballs at enemy heads, and actually kill them. My "emotional response" is because it seems like you dont even read what im saying. That makes it frustrating to catry a convo. 

3)even with carefully placed shots, warframe's entire end-game strategy can be summed up in one phrase: CC, bullet jump, and AoE attacks

4) again, its a horde game... in lvl 80+ enemies are oneshotting you. The only way to survive is to spam that CC, or kill them so fast that they dont get the chance to shoot... it takes 0 skill... its all just button spamming.

 

If enemies were fewer, but required more strategy to kill, then yeah. I'd agree with you. But warframe isnt Monster Hunter, or dark souls, or tera... heck, even BnS, and BDO offer more strategic fighting, and challenging enemies.  

 

 

[Maka.Bones]

On 2018-05-25 at 11:29 AM, RealPandemonium said:

A power fantasy is most fulfilling when the player builds up the power through competence.  We all went through the honeymoon phase where we first figured out how the mod system worked (I guess most people just look this up on youtube now) and ran through missions spamming 4.  Maybe this is still fun for you, but what it is for most people is efficient.  They want their rewards, and they don't care about the gameplay that leads them there.  

honestly... have you even been reading what ive said? Ive said 4 times that my main issue with ember, is how weak her fireballs are. How weak her overall kit synergy is. How does a fireball with a full-charge, crit, headshot, on an target debuffed by accelerant, and molecular prime, not kill the enemy? With a max power build even... you cant make any arguments about skill, when even while using her as "intended" she still doesnt provide good results. 

 

Ember cant kill much by herself. She can stun, and that's it. 50% cast speed is useless when youre mostly using your primary. Fire damage on weapons isnt essential, and it makes zero difference for most of my builds. Enemies die in one shot, with or without the extra damage.

Sorry man, but your arguments are as weak as ember. The strategies you suggest, are redundant, and cumbersome. No point in using them,  if they're not fun. I also fail to see how spamming 2, is any different than spamming 4.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb Maka.Bones:

Just going to repeat myself:

I love the devs, and the game is fun, but Warframe doesnt allow for actual "skilled gameplay". 

https://imgur.com/a/kg7l2Uo

Those are actually the results of "skilled gameplay" i had in a onslaught today. With me on the picture a ignis wielding octavia... The archetype of unskilled meta imo, the ones that left were a oberon prime that kept dying and a rhino so you can guess the overall score...

I dare say that she indeed allows for skilled gameplay. You're correct, it isn't a souls game but you can push her ehp to the point it allows for energy management. Energy management allows for free ability use and those abilitys and theyr secondary effects allow for strategic use... for someone who's trying to avoid p4tw you seem awefully reliant on min/maxing is what this probably boils down to. Try an utility build on her and see how that goes.

[Maka.Bones]

On 2018-06-07 at 10:55 AM, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

https://imgur.com/a/kg7l2Uo

Those are actually the results of "skilled gameplay" i had in a onslaught today. With me on the picture a ignis wielding octavia... The archetype of unskilled meta imo, the ones that left were a oberon prime that kept dying and a rhino so you can guess the overall score...

I dare say that she indeed allows for skilled gameplay. You're correct, it isn't a souls game but you can push her ehp to the point it allows for energy management. Energy management allows for free ability use and those abilitys and theyr secondary effects allow for strategic use... for someone who's trying to avoid p4tw you seem awefully reliant on min/maxing is what this probably boils down to. Try an utility build on her and see how that goes.

Octavia = perma invisi... not really "skilled"

she also literally buffs everything... hence increased damage--you know, that thing i've been saying that ember needs--or you don't even need powers, because you can stay perma-invisible, and just hit everything with your zenistar AoE 

also I see a zenistar there...

furis for self-heal ?

That dread with no exp tho. What's with that?

Please tell me... what were your main powers used? Spamming accelerant, with a dash of wof? Maybe the occasional fireball (doubt it, since they don't last longer than your zenistar, but *maybe*) and you probably didn't even use fireblast, if you're mainly relying on accelerant. Since the KD has no effect on stunned enemies, and accelerant works through walls and all. Accelerant & fireblast both have the same duration for CC, so there's really no advantage in using fireblast with a melee. 

 

Idk man, seems like you were just spamming zenistar to me. Melee isn't exactly "skilled" gameplay. Especially not aoe-zeni. That's just another overly-used meme--literally the opposite of "skilled gameplay" 

Yeah, you're literally just supporting my argument. The fact that you can't even see it for yourself is mind-blowing to me. What you just showed, is literally what i'm talking about. If rhino left early, he either had other S#&$ to do, he reached his goal, or he really sucks at playing rhino. I don't use oberon, so I can't talk about boobers. 

 

BTW ember isn't supposed to be a "utility frame" she's meant to be a dps frame. Says so on their nerf-patch. Though even if she was meant as a utility frame, she's bad at that too. Only ones worse than her at utility are titania, mirage, and... valkyr? (You know... another dps frame) and i'm not sure that valkyr is actually worse. Mirage is... eh arguable. 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Maka.Bones:

 BTW ember isn't supposed to be a "utility frame" she's meant to be a dps frame. Says so on their nerf-patch. Though even if she was meant as a utility frame, she's bad at that too. 

^^ really now, is octavia such bad at beein a buffer? Does she only affect others but not herself? Are we gonna ignore that her kit has scaling aoe damage? Are we even gonna s**t all over flawless meta frames for the sake of doing so on ember? Sure i forgot to mention that everyone else including her was playing nude and let us forget that statement here

Am 7.6.2018 um 19:43 schrieb Maka.Bones:

... you cant make any arguments about skill, when even while using her as "intended" she still doesnt provide good results. 

What's damager, damage buffer and supporter in her case on a ideal setup for facetanking with that lowsy utility of her. Glad you noticed the life management, that one was part of her, again, facetanking enemys in quite a few kinds of content including this run for the sake of my rage/qt setup. Consequently i'm drowning in it so i indeed used her abilities including fire blast. Your point is literall salt and i'm assuming "how she is intendet to be played" is indeed ranged afk to you since you can't accept people performing with her even if they do share theyr results with you.

Edited June 13, 2018 by (PS4)CoolD2108