(Possible Spoilers) Canonically, is there only one of each Prime warframe, or are the Tenno finally mass producing Orokin tech to create more?

[Tenno_Aster]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. After the revelations of The Sacrifice, I've been wondering if each of the Prime warframes are unique individuals, and there are only one of each within the canon. If not, are the Tenno mass producing them now, or what?

I really hope that there are multiple instances of the Prime frames, as that would make them feel more personal to me.

[TARINunit9]

My read of the warframe production line:

Unique umbra concept models -> a new line of unique non-prime concept models (confirmed to predate the primes in the Titania quest) -> mass-produced primes -> mass-produced copies of the non-prime

[Firetempest]

Umbra is the unique prototypes. Prime being basically the primarchs and original children. And then the derivatives being mass-produced when the Orokin were making new operators when transference was perfected? Is now I see it currently. I'm sure there is some obscure lore passage from some random corner that says different.

[Zavenosk]

My theory is that "regular" warframes were cloned from prime originals, while Ballas peruses the ideal of handcrafting "legends", there are unlikely enough individuals of distinction to outfit an entire Tenno army. 

[TARINunit9]

Just now, Zavenosk said:

My theory is that "regular" warframes were cloned from prime originals

The Titania quest states it was actually the other way around

[Tenno_Aster]

7 minutes ago, Zavenosk said:

there are unlikely enough individuals of distinction to outfit an entire Tenno army. 

Are modern-made frames still even using actual people in their production?

[Hypernaut1]

So wait.... Is Excalibur Umbra supposed to be the FIRST Excalibur? And thus the first Warframe? The story didn't seem to imply that kind of weight, but maybe I missed it.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

10 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

So wait.... Is Excalibur Umbra supposed to be the FIRST Excalibur?

It's still Orokin? Excal Proto 'may be' pre Orokin.

 

But based on how Umbra was made in our foundry, I assume they are all 'built' clones. The blueprints are the only thing needing to be mass produced if every Orbiter can make it with proper mats. 

Helmnith is capable of coping the mutations as I see it.

Edited July 1, 2018 by (XB1)Evilpricetag

[kyori]

All prime warframes are mass-produced but each a unique individuals just like  the 1 out of many Excalibur Umbra we were told about, in the Sacrifice quest.

 

[Katinka]

As I see it our foundries create a warframe based on limited information and resources to create the 'normal' versions.  Once we acquire Prime blueprints the foundry is able to replicate the Prime using true Orokin Era tech rather than the approximation we made before.  The foundry is also capable of growing organic matter in the form of Infested weaponry so the warframes are probably grown from the dna of the original rather than made from a fresh supply of donor bodies.

[Firetempest]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)Evilpricetag said:

It's still Orokin? Excal Proto 'may be' pre Orokin.

The deluxe skins are not really lore friendly. DE says Dark sector is not warframe canon, but there was a Hayden Tenno. If he was infected with a virus that would likely be the precursor to the far flung futures version of the technocyte that made the frames, they don't go into detail. I dont think he could really be called an "Excalibur" even though our Excalibur uses a skin to imitate dark sector.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Firetempest

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

2 hours ago, Firetempest said:

The deluxe skins are not really lore friendly. DE says Dark sector is not warframe canon, but there was a Hayden Tenno. If he was infected with a virus that would likely be the precursor to the far flung futures version of the technocyte that made the frames, they don't go into detail. I dont think he could really be called an "Excalibur" even though our Excalibur uses a skin a imitate dark sector.

I understand Dark Sector is not Canon, but that doesn't mean it being in our universe isn't canon, as the text exists in game with vague 'facts' if we can call it that.

Also its my understanding that delux skins are a different take on the warframes. Excalibur Proto could very much just be a Warsuit like Dark Sector, but no direct lore, and simply a 'skin' in our era of an original outdated concept.

Also Hayden Tenno is written on the blanket of Isaah was using, very up & front I don't call that an easter egg, I just want to know why he's a famous blanket maker all of a sudden.

Edited July 2, 2018 by (XB1)Evilpricetag

[ZodiacShinryu]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The Titania quest states it was actually the other way around

I am fairly certain we have had this discussion before. Again, this is only your interpretation of the Titania questline not an actual truth as you can't actually prove it. There is more lore (and DE themselves) suggesting Primes are more unique than our defaults. After the Sacrifice I would've believed an argument for Titania to be a Umbra for in that particular quest timeline. However we still have a murky timeline in that quest as is and can't pin down the exact model used in creation vs the one that falls in the grove. And we have to assume that a default model fell because that is what the quest rewards use from the forest itself but that doesn't mean it was the original.

Especially when I am "fairly confident of proof" that the Orokin can commit to complete accurate replications (perfect clones). From that Umbra quest if we assume the opening Umbra is thee original Excalibur Umbra (that doesn't even need to be true for this) we then witness it's destruction as part of a vision. We then find the incident site where we find "its remains". After a bit more data collection for Ordis, we "CRAFT" the Umbra that we encounter for the rest of the quest. That crafted Umbra has the exact memory of the original, it is not like we are able to throw the same human in again to become Umbra. Our Foundry (developed by the Orokin) is able to replicate perfectly only using its basic components and the blueprints we use likely have way more data (like exact, accurate, intricate neural mapping) about everything that it was made to design.

It is entirely possible that every Warframe is the same human base for that particular frame (so all Embers are from Ember base human and Rhino are Rhino base human so on and so forth). Replicated perfectly to keep the traits of the frame the same but perhaps the blueprints diverge in certain areas (like Primes/Defaults don't have memory information) or other differences that allow Umbras' their particular freedoms in comparisons. In this way they wouldn't need a lot of individual subjects, they would just need as many unique subjects as there are frames in existence. And I am sure the Orokin could handle 35+ easy (hundreds could be possible).

[Koldraxon-732]

There's two main archetypes of Warframes: the 'Originals' and the 'Copies'.
Originals are, theoretically, persons, perhaps warriors or willing individuals, who underwent Warframe conversion. Or just Warframes with the ability to hold memories of their own, and act freely - allowing their Operators to create a new person - like Mirage and king Inaros.

Copies are Helminth-grown meatbags with nothing but instinct and the will to obey and have faith in the Tenno.

Beyond this will be spoilers. Do not read until Sacrifice is completed by reader.

Spoiler

Edit: Fixed a letter. Additional: If you revisit the courtyard in Captura or even as part of the Quest, Umbra's remains weren't there, so we must've taken them home with us with the scans.

Umbra comes under the Originals category because we literally put him back together from the parts of him we uncovered in the courtyard, with some assistance from Ordis and the Vitruvian 'diary of Ballas' to recompile him. If we only had blueprints and printed him from those, he wouldn't howl or remember anything, nor would he bring his trademark nikana and mods, nor would he be max-rank either; such a copy would be nothing more than a 1:1 of Chinaframe's Umbra-Prime.

The Umbra series, I suspect, may include numerous other original Warframe types which were around ever since it began in earnest. If DE is to go with a Dark Sector reference, the next Umbra would be Nyx, and if it is Nyx, then we might have a slight issue of a Dax-to-Dax relationship considering based on all known info all the Umbras were grown around high-ranking Dax - the equivalent of Spartans trapped in Nanosuits with a bit of Doomguy, with forced or willing compliance to instructions dispensed by Orokin - refer to Teshin, Kuva Scepter, Twin Queens.

All Umbras may be high-ranking Dax who may (or may not) have been willing to undergo the Umbra transformation process while possibly (or not) knowing what they will become. Nyx Umbra, if she happens, may have a tragic story of 'didn't believe I'd end up like this' with a cozy ending of 'oh, I'm not alone?' with the aftermath of having to deal with trying to keep two Umbras focused on the mission rather than hugging eachother all the time, or something similarly interesting.

Honestly, at the end of gathering all the Umbra Warframes, our Tenno may have to find a solution as to where to host the server to hold all of their divergent consciousnesses when they are not needed in combat. Perhaps the Tenno might just let them roam the ship and by extension ensure that it is a homely place, or join them to create a fully-fledged squad of Umbras (which would again be a Mass Effect reference of sorts, but it would be a good one).

Possibilities near infinite.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by Koldraxon-732
Spoiler fix.

[NightmareT12]

27 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

So wait.... Is Excalibur Umbra supposed to be the FIRST Excalibur? And thus the first Warframe? The story didn't seem to imply that kind of weight, but maybe I missed it.

No. What's even more, if you keep track of the timeline of Warframe that premise makes absolutely no sense. When Umbra is created Margulis is already long dead, and Warframes have been a thing for what Ballas implies is centuries.

As for how Warframes work, the whole quest has it all implied. The Orokin created the Primes, might be one of each, but they could then make blueprints to make the components to mass produce them as a 1:1 replica (which is what we're cracking out of relics). (ie: Excalibur Prime).

The Tenno for some reason must or try to copy the models, but the process is imperfect because they lack the proper knowledge and end up with what we understand as "Base frames" (ie: the Excalibur we awake from cryosleep on).

Spoilers below

Spoiler

Normally our Warframes would be copies of an individual that has gone under a traumatic process but they lack the, say, active memories of being once a human being.

Umbra, on the other hand, is stated by Ballas to have a single, burning memory. That's why it can operate itself: His memories are still there, which means his personality is intact and he is suffering, hence his autonomy.

As for the timeline thing, Ballas states he has had LIFETIMES to plan his defection to Hunhow, and that he decided to do so because he had to execute Margulis. In other words: The Warframe project had been running for at least various centuries before that point in time. Thus the first Excalibur (Prime) had been created long before. Note he explains the whole process to the Dax soldier as well, stating that the Helminth strain was working in him.

 

[--F--NerevarCM]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

My read of the warframe production line:

Unique umbra concept models -> a new line of unique non-prime concept models (confirmed to predate the primes in the Titania quest) -> mass-produced primes -> mass-produced copies of the non-prime

 

1 hour ago, Firetempest said:

Umbra is the unique prototypes. Prime being basically the primarchs and original children. And then the derivatives being mass-produced when the Orokin were making new operators when transference was perfected? Is now I see it currently. I'm sure there is some obscure lore passage from some random corner that says different.

Where in the quest is stated that Umbras are the first prototypes?

Ballas made Umbra AFTER Margulis was killed. And Ballas started creating Warframes BEFORE the death of Margulis

 

9 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

Normally our Warframes would be copies of an individual that has gone under a traumatic process but they lack the, say, active memories of being once a human being.

Umbra, on the other hand, is stated by Ballas to have a single, burning memory. That's why it can operate itself: His memories are still there, which means his personality is intact and he is suffering, hence his autonomy.

As for the timeline thing, Ballas states he has had LIFETIMES to plan his defection to Hunhow, and that he decided to do so because he had to execute Margulis. In other words: The Warframe project had been running for at least various centuries before that point in time. Thus the first Excalibur (Prime) had been created long before. Note he explains the whole process to the Dax soldier as well, stating that the Helminth strain was working in him.

This!

Edited July 1, 2018 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

I am fairly certain we have had this discussion before. Again, this is only your interpretation of the Titania questline not an actual truth as you can't actually prove it.

But I find it FAR more likely than the alternative. Like, you would have to convince me that the Titania blueprints Sylvania stole somehow degraded from Prime to non-prime over the last thousand years for me to believe your theory

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, that's more than enough for me to "actually prove" it

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, NightmareT12 said:

As for how Warframes work, the whole quest has it all implied. The Orokin created the Primes, might be one of each, but they could then make blueprints to make the components to mass produce them as a 1:1 replica (which is what we're cracking out of relics). (ie: Excalibur Prime).

The Tenno for some reason must or try to copy the models, but the process is imperfect because they lack the proper knowledge and end up with what we understand as "Base frames" (ie: the Excalibur we awake from cryosleep on).

Titania quest adds a step before all this (no matter what ZodiacShinryu has to say on the matter):

First the Orokin scientists create a non-Prime concept model. The higher-ups upgrade this into a Prime model which I'll believe whatever, they aren't actually fleshed out very well. Then we get to the "The Tenno for some reason must or try to copy the models, but the process is imperfect because they lack the proper knowledge" step, and the Tenno are forced to copy the non-prime concept models instead

[(XBOX)Evilpricetag]

15 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Titania quest adds a step before all this (no matter what ZodiacShinryu has to say on the matter):

First the Orokin scientists create a non-Prime concept model. The higher-ups upgrade this into a Prime model which I'll believe whatever, they aren't actually fleshed out very well. Then we get to the "The Tenno for some reason must or try to copy the models, but the process is imperfect because they lack the proper knowledge" step, and the Tenno are forced to copy the non-prime concept models instead

The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way. In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed.

We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction. Gave them the weapons of the old ways. Gun and blade. A new warrior, a new code was born. These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors. Warrior-Gods cast in steel and fury striking our enemies in a way they could never comprehend. Excalibur was the first.

- Orokin 'Warframe' Archives

Exept this Excalibur Prime codex contradicts some of this reasoning.

Orokin would never call their own first model, 'Prime' if anything the Tenno models should have the unique titles. Prime simply refering to the best, but Umbra puts weight on that title, however disobediences might hinder that title in a lore sense.

[TARINunit9]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Evilpricetag said:

Exept this Excalibur Prime codex contradicts some of this reasoning.

Orokin would never call their own first model, 'Prime' if anything the Tenno models should have the unique titles. Prime simply refering to the best, but Umbra puts weight on that title, however disobediences might hinder that title in a lore sense.

Oh yeah, it's a complete mess, and I'm going to pester the next Devstream thread with questions to see if the writers can put it back together. Like, the Umbras were supposed to be early-stage dangerous prototypes, but as other people have pointed out Ballas actually commissioned Saryn and Saryn Prime before the Umbras. And while my Titania timeline is logically sound given the in-game data, it's definitely out of character for the Orokin elite

[--F--NerevarCM]

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Oh yeah, it's a complete mess, and I'm going to pester the next Devstream thread with questions to see if the writers can put it back together. Like, the Umbras were supposed to be early-stage dangerous prototypes, but as other people have pointed out Ballas actually commissioned Saryn and Saryn Prime before the Umbras. And while my Titania timeline is logically sound given the in-game data, it's definitely out of character for the Orokin elite

Saryn was made after Margulis was dead. Thats why he made her based on Margulis dream of seeing the Earth clean again.

Umbras are NOT dangerous prototypes. They aren't prototypes. Ballas made Excalibur Umbra as a punishement, because Ballas caught Old Dax spying on his communications.

Nowhere in the quest states that Ballas created Umbra as a prototype. Like @NightmareT12 said, Umbra was made AFTER Margulis was dead.

 

My timeline theory is:

Ballas create the first Warframes, probably the first Primes like Excalibur Prime ->

Project is canceled because they can't be controlled ->

Zariman is found and Margulis start the Transference therapy with Silvanna ->

Rhino Codex happens and David discovers the link between Warframes and Tenno via Transference ->

Ballas put his hands on Transference tecnology and starts full production of Warframes ->

Silvana runs away  ->

Margulis is killed ->

Ballas creates Saryn and all the other remaining Warframes ->

During the War, he plans his defection and Old Dax founds out about it ->

He makes Umbra Excalibur from Old Dax as a punishment, so he can remember forever how he killed his own son.

Edited July 2, 2018 by -SDM-NerevarCM

[ZodiacShinryu]

49 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

But I find it FAR more likely than the alternative. Like, you would have to convince me that the Titania blueprints Sylvania stole somehow degraded from Prime to non-prime over the last thousand years for me to believe your theory

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, that's more than enough for me to "actually prove" it

What? She brought/stole blueprints with her to the Silver Grove? You are just adding information to fit your narrative. The game never said that. It said, "I'll stowaway with Earth-bound cargo. Just my apothics and these slapdash Somatics I've stolen. By nightfall I'll be home again in my tent under those bitter, acid skies. This time I'm going to fix it. I will seed a mighty forest, stronger than history... and by my will, use it to bring life." If you are grasping to the word "Somatics" then you should understand those refer to Transference tools so she could actually carry out her plan to "will the forest to life" (also we have equip able "somatics" for our operators). She brought nothing with her of Titania... She despised her until the very end.

The blueprints came from the Titania that fell in the battle to protect the forest. We can synthesize blueprints from just bits and pieces of frames as The Sacrifice Umbra quest can attest to. Whether that Titania is the original is DEBATABLE, which is the whole point. The timeline between Sylvania's defection and escape to Earth and when the Orokin Dax came to burn down the forest for her transgression is NOT stated in the game. We know that before she was recruited to the Warframe Project that she was "frustrated at her lack of progress" on growth acceleration of vegetation on Earth. Even if we assume that she did get an growth acceleration we don't know how fast it was. The Silver Grove was a full fledged forest before the Dax came and we also know Titania had at the very least a working prototype before she defected. With what time passed anything could've happened in the development of Titania whether it was a Prime first or not. All we know is that "a Titania" (likely our default version) was present in the end; maybe she came at the request/push of Margulis through a Tenno but that doesn't definitively make it the original.

My theory doesn't have to be correct, it after all is an interpretation of events based on what is given however your theory is no more likely correct than mine because my interpretation is a counter to yours using the same information.

[NocheLuz]

1 hour ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Saryn was made after Margulis was dead. Thats why he made her based on Margulis dream of seeing the Earth clean again.

Umbras are NOT dangerous prototypes. They aren't prototypes. Ballas made Excalibur Umbra as a punishement, because Ballas caught Old Dax spying on his communications.

Nowhere in the quest states that Ballas created Umbra as a prototype. Like @NightmareT12 said, Umbra was made AFTER Margulis was dead.

This.

In the Sacrifice Questline already confirm that the timeline in the memories is between the War with Sentients. Since Ballas want to dispose of one who might expose him that he trying to send data to Sentients.

Also, all prime in the Lore are Prototype. They're not copies. Meaning they are one and only Prime. While what we use now a day are copies of the prime Warframes. They are not really human inside that but a copies of exact Human in the Prime Prototype. Normal Warframe I think they are downgrade to mass produce and send to death on a mission. We do not know how many children in the Zariman Ten-Zero. But I think it would take a lot of resoures to build Prime copies to everyone. Thus a downgrade copies that have the same ability but a little bit less spec.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, ZodiacShinryu said:

Whether that Titania is the original is DEBATABLE, which is the whole point.

No, it really, really isn't. That was Sylvania's Titania. She knew it, she recognized it, she regretted hating it after she watched it die. And when we build it back up, it was a non-prime. Thus I refer you to my previous post:

3 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

you would have to convince me that the Titania blueprints somehow degraded from Prime to non-prime over the last thousand years for me to believe your theory

Unless the devs confirm that, Primes came second. End of discussion as far as I am concerned

Edit: alternatively, you would have to convince me that Original Titania was a non-prime when Sylvania left, was upgraded to Prime, and had her prime parts shot off her during her final battle

Edited July 2, 2018 by TARINunit9

[Tenno_Aster]

11 minutes ago, NocheLuz said:

We do not know how many children in the Zariman Ten-Zero.

I think we can assume that there are a bunch of Tenno out there, considering the fact that they have a bunch of fully-staffed dedicated relays with merchants who earn their living selling to Tenno. Would seem weird to have all of that if there were only something like a few hundred Tenno to utilize it.

I like the headcanon that the number of Tenno is equal to the size of the playerbase.